And it only took Harper 160 days to come back from his November 23rd surgery. This will, of course be Ohtani's second Tommy John surgery, so recovery time will be longer. But I really hope he doesn't miss the entire 2024 season. I feel like he should be able to come back as DH during the season, hopefully in spring/early summer.

Bryce Harper has 12 home runs and 47 RBI and we are almost in September.

He's having an awful season.

Are there examples of pitchers who have had two of these and gone on to more success?

He's also hitting .299 with an .860 OPS. Since his return, he's been hitting for average but had a long home run drought. Recently the power seems to be coming back so while it did take him some time, it appears like he might have a strong finish. If that happens, it wouldn't be an awful season considering that he wasn't expected to be back until the All-Star break but came back in early May.

Peter, I posted this link earlier but you may have missed it. Definitely a mixed bag following second surgery.

https://www.mlb.com/news/pitchers-to...-surgery-twice

Sorry I missed it. Thank you.

And yeah, not exactly cause for overwhelming confidence.

Bryce Harper in 2022 pre-injury:

286 average / 364 OBP / 514 SLG / 877 OPS

Bryce Harper 2023 post-injury:

299 average / 392 OBP / 468 SLG / 860 OPS

Last 30 games
.307 average / .398 OBP / .579 SLG / .977 OPS

so it took him some time to get back to his normal level but if he can finish like this, the Phillies will be very happy with his season.

Don't forget he missed a lot of 2022 with a broken thumb and was pretty lousy hitting when he came back from that but caught fire in the playoffs and almost carried the Phillies to a World Series win.

It's unfortunate isn't it that two generational talents IMO, Trout and Harper, have both been plagued by injuries which clearly have taken away from their career resumes. Sadly, after coming back for one game and now being gone again, it's very unclear to me what will become of Trout. Harper still seems resilient.

He's had 1 great week and about 20 awful weeks.

Yes he better stay hot to make up for that brutal 1st 4 months of the season.


26 million a year for 12 HRs and 47 RBIs, no thanks.........granted these will go up some with a month to go, but let's see if the Phillies even get in the Playoffs, luckily they have a soft Sept schedule, so they should.

The point was Harper is playing at a comparable level. I posted the stats. You can feel how you want about them but they look comparable to me.

Yes, he indeed did do that. Tremendous in the Playoffs, although a little dissapointing in the WS. I'm just saying this season has been brutal up until a week or so ago.

We'll see how he finishes.

I forgot you are a Yankee fan so 12 HRs and 47 RBIs looks pretty good to you. You guys arn't really familiar with offense.

To the rest of the baseball world, outside of NY, those numbers for 28 million a year are garbage.

Maybe one day we'll be able to talk about the same thing at the same time.

Not sure if you've been watching him play or just looking at his stats, but I've seen almost every game he's played this season. As I posted earlier, he's been hitting for average and getting on base since he came back but the power was not there. Over the last month (not just 1 week), he's been hitting the way he is capable of so it looks like it just took some time for him to really fully recover from the surgery and return in just over 5 months. If he plays the remaining 30+ games of the season like he's played the past 30 games, the Phillies will be very happy with his overall season.

More than just the last week. Last 30 games:

307 average / .398 OBP / .579 SLG / .977 OPS

I've always loved Harper. Any time they want to send him to Boston is good by me.

He seems pretty happy in Philly and I think has a no trade clause. With the DH in the NL now, no reason to move him to the AL for the last few years when he's likely in decline. Maybe Boston can sign him for a few years when he's 39 and his contact has ended.

Plays the game with fire and with passion. 2 Time MVP, I'd take him on my roster any day of the week.

The discussion is not on Harper's past performance. Yes has had a very good career. Stud. The question at hand is how does a hitter do after 2 TJ's.

So we are only looking at his current season. Batting Average is high which is very good, but the power looks to be zapped (12 HRs & 47 RBI).......but his bat recently came to life so maybe he'll be fine. Time will tell.

But 2 years now of less than Harper-like numbers, he's 30 and should be in his prime. 18 HR / 65 RBI last year and 12 HR / 47 RBI so far this year. Pretty ugly for a 3 or 4 hitter getting 26 Million per year.

He ranks 145th in HRs and 131st in RBIs this season.

Hopefully we'll get a full season out of him next year.

I'm a little confused now. Harper hasn't had 2 Tommy John surgeries. He only played 99 games in 2022 mainly because he missed time with a broken thumb after getting hit by a pitch so his home runs and RBIs were down because he only had 370 ABs. Also, before the injury, he was having a solid season, but when he came back, he was pretty bad until getting hot in the playoffs.

I'm not aware of any hitters that have returned after 2 Tommy John surgeries so Ohtani may be there first to do it. However, since it is apparently possible to hit with a torn ligament that requires the surgery (like Harper last year and Ohtani currently), it would seem likely that Ohtani should be able to be an effective hitter eventually next year and beyond even if he doesn't pitch again.

Ah....sorry my error then, I thought someone said or implied he had 2 TJ surgeries......carry on then.

I'm gonna revise my statement and say maybe Ohtani could head to NY, but to the Mets.

I see what they did last night, Japanese Heritage Night.

Senga on the team, could also be a selling point.

Injury now is a blessing for the Mets. Other teams will offer less. Mets will write a blank check.

Baseball players in general are not very smart (look at Trout), they will take the most money then later regret not going to a place where they could win. Or be fooled like Cole into a sense you are going somewhere better, living in the past (& past reputation) rather then present.

So Mets very well could overpay and his agent who cares about his own check, will encourage that as well.

Tell him in 2025 when fully healthy we'll sign Bregman and a few others.

I think this injury really will help the Mets.

The Mets are also a likely destination for current Japanese star Yoshinobu Yamamoto, which couldn't hurt their case (unless he and Ohtani don't like each other or something).

Ohtani in the lineup tonight.

The Mets fans booed tonight when Othani walked. That never happens.

Also, this sign:

I tell you, Ohtani is the anti-Neymar (mixing sports metaphors). Not a hint of whining or self pity. Since the injury three days ago, he's gone 3 for 5, with two doubles, a triple, and 4 walks (2 intentional).

I think he stays with the Angels, and I reiterate my unprovable belief that he made the decision before the trade deadline.

Thanks for that sign :-) My wife isn't a baseball fan but speaks and reads Japanese fluently so these signs are always good bonding moments when I ask her to translate!

My wife would make the sign volunteering to donate My organs not hers.:D

Sports Colectors Daily doesn't think the injury should have much impact on Ohtani's card prices. And so far it hasn't.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...80005-83287939

I do not think it will impact his cards
1. He has already made a splash as a 2 way player for many years now.
2. Set many records and compared to Babe Ruth often
3 already has 1 MVP and a strong case for a 2nd.
4. May not pitch next hit but can still hit
5. Projected to pitch in 2025
6. Very popular player
7. If he gets on a winning team will only get more visibility

If going forward he is only a DH, I think his cards will drop relative to the market. And even more if for some insane reason he stays with the Angels.

I don't know. I kind of feel like Ohtani has already done enough on the mound vis-a-vis his card prices. Ruth only pitched as a pitcher for 5 full seasons.

Ohtani will never be Ruth in the box but if he hits 30-40 homers a year for the next four or five years, he'll have hit aver 300 homers before his 35th birthday and have pitched more than 400 innings.

I think he's a unicorn type of player no matter what he does so long as he's decent at one of the skills. Mostly because he'll have already won 2 MVPs as a two-way player (assuming he wins this year).

Earlier in the thread you said "he hasn't done much yet."

That comment was about counting stats. I'm still of the opinion he's not a HOFer today. But I'm also of the opinion being a HOFer isn't always necessary to have expensive cards. I meant enough to boost his cards and keep them there. Not enough to get into the HOF tomorrow.

You said if he's only a DH his prices will fall. But I don't agree because I think he's done enough as a pitcher to maintain price. And if he hits 30 to 40 homers a year for the next four or five years, I'm not sure he would have had to pitch too for his cards to be where they're at now. I can't imagine anyone pictured him being a two-way player for 10 more seasons.

Hopefully he will pitch again and we won't have to deal with the hypothetical, but I don't know, not ten years, but I think people expected the two way thing to continue for a lot longer than it's gone on to date and if you take that away, to me he loses some of the magic.

I don’t know what Tanaka did but he also had a UCL issue and opted not to do surgery. Somehow he managed to be a kind of work horse for the Yankees anyway. I think they found the tear his first year over here too. Maybe there’s an option like that for Ohtani.

Man, when he first came over he was really something. I just looked him up, he's still pitching in Japan.

I think it had to do with the nature of Tanaka's tear, where it was located and the rehab work he did around it.

I will also say, that there is zero guarantee that Ohtani is a Hall of Famer. He needs to continue to put up the production on the offensive side of the baseball. I don't think Starting Pitching is a realistic, long term option. Maybe he might be able to compete as a high leverage reliever or closer, but this is his second UCL tear, the body can't handle this much strain. He is human, afterall.

Ohtani is definitely not a guaranteed Hall of Famer yet although the potential is definitely there. Currently, he has a career WAR of 34.6, and it looks like a little over half of that is for his hitting. If he doesn't pitch any more, he will have to keep putting up some big numbers hitting (especially as a DH) to get his WAR up to the range where he will be likely to get voted in. He certainly has the potential to do it, and he will likely get a lot of consideration even if he's a little low based on the fact he did also pitch for 5 years, but not a lock yet.

Can anyone remember his last home run?

August 23rd, was his last home run, Peter. I'm wondering if his torn UCL is contributing to his approach to the plate at all. Or if he's simply, going through the motions, knowing that the Angels won't make the playoffs and that he'll be somewhere else next season.

Since the injury, he's had 38 plate appearances, during which he had 8 hits, including 3 doubles and a triple, and 10 walks (4 intentional). He also stole 3 bases. OBP of 474 and OPS of 938. Wonder if he's taking something off his swing, while still producing at a reasonably high level.

I'm not sure that not hitting a Home Run in 28 bats is indicative of anything--he's been hitting the ball hard, its just been in play.

But who knows.

Any idea what Ohtani's longest stretch without a home run was this season before now? When Harper played most of last season after his elbow injury, he still hit for power so it seems like the injury itself shouldn't cause a home run drought, but if Ohtani has altered his swing because of it, there could be a connection to a power outage. However, over a long season, it could just be a brief anomaly.

There was a period of time this year, where Harper was hitting the ball hard, but wasn't driving it into the seats. He's seemed to have made the proper adjustments and now that's no longer an issue however.

EDIT:

Figured I'd make an edit instead of a double post, granted it's Nightengale who isn't the most reliable, but he's reporting Ohtani might undergo TJ Surgery in 10 days.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...y/70757037007/

I read somewhere that he went the last 22 games last season without a home run. I believe that his current "drought" is the longest he's had this season.

Yes, Harper definitely did not hit for much power following his initial return fromTommyJohn surgery, but he definitely got his power stroke going in August.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ohtani has surgery before the season ends. The Angels are out of the playoff race so may as well have it done to minimize the amount of time he misses in 2024 with whatever team he ends up.

Ohtani had 30 straight at bats over a span of 8 games from August 4th through the 12th without a home run. His UCL tear was announced on the 23rd.


Yes, he ended last season with 22 straight games without a homer.

He missed starts or exited early starting in early August, I think, so that's probably when he sustained the injury. I think it's pretty clearly affected his power but still perhaps a sample size thing.

https://twitter.com/zh_sho_o_sy0Z2z/...826032510?s=20This article says he sustained the injury when pitching on August 23rd. I don't know if you can pitch with a torn UCL.

The article also says he may avoid Tommy John:

Balelo explained that when Ohtani sustained his UCL tear in 2018, the tear was at the top of his UCL. But this time, it’s at the base of his UCL and there’s no damage to the repaired UCL from the initial surgery. Balelo, though, wouldn’t get into specifics about the options for Ohtani surgery-wise. There is an operation with a shorter recovery time that involves using an internal elbow brace, but it’s unclear whether that’s on the table.

“Multiple doctors looked at this and said this is the best-case scenario for the situation we're in,” Balelo said. “The ligament itself and the graft that was put in with the ligament in 2018 is still intact, no problems. And that’s a real positive to take away from this.”

Balelo added that Ohtani will be ready to serve as DH to start the 2024 season, even if he gets an operation on the elbow. Ohtani had surgery on Oct. 1, 2018, and didn’t make his season debut in ‘19 until May 7, but Balelo said this time is different because of where the tear is in his elbow. But there is a chance Ohtani has the surgery before the end of the season to make sure he’s ready for the start of next season as a hitter.

Also, this video seems to show he might be in pain just from swinging a bat (or he slipped?)

Apparently he's not playing Monday because of an oblique injury from batting practice so that's probably what's seen in the video posted above.

He is listed as day to day with an oblique injury.

He is still putting up some amazing numbers with his bat and speed.

Perhaps with this 2nd injury he should just shut it down the rest of season or take some extra days off to let his body recover

First not pitching and now been out 6 games as a DH

Feel bad both for him and their fans.

They thought they had him for at least the final 2 months to set records and attract fans to the game and now nothing and no trout.

And now Trout may want out and the Angels are open to trading him.

Better late than never!

I didn't read the stories but the headlines are weird, the Angels saying they are open to trading him IF he requests it. Sending a message maybe?

Angels in tear down mode. They're practically begging Trout to request a trade at this point.

If in fact he is still basically intact, what a great opportunity for him to move to a contending team for the back end of his career. He could be Pujols in reverse in that respect.

That’s the thing. IS he intact? Trout hasn’t played close to a full season since 2019 (I don’t count 2020).

He hasn’t played an actual full season since 2016.

I think the Angels would trade him for any close to top 100 prospect, and not much else, if that team was willing to pick up his salary for the next 7 years.

They want HIM to ask for the trade, so they can save face with all the fans who can’t already tell the team is itching to dump him.

I think they’ll have a hard time finding a team who will take Trout off their hands, unless the Angels throw a lot of salary relief money in the pot…..and a lot more then the 30 million the Yankees got from the Marlins for Stanton.

Hope springs eternal in baseball. He's a first tier HOFer and he's still only 32. Someone will take him.

I think Trout would still get a good return in a trade. However, I agree with his health concerns they will not get as much as they could if he was healthier. I think he will produce for several more years but not at the Trout level we have seen from years past. And with his injury history he will not age well. But he will still be above most players for the next 3 years or so just a matter of how many games he will play.

Would still love to see Trout and Ohtani on other teams and see them getting chances to play in meaning full games in a playoff race and into the playoffs

The question is what do you give up for a guy with his issues. I don't see a Top 100 prospect haul like the Nationals got for Soto. I'm thinking the return would be closer to what the Mariners got for Griffey. A middle of the pack decent future major leaguer like the Mariners got in Mike Cameron.

Yankees would sell a good bit of the farm for Trout, wouldn't they? Especially if the Angels paid some of the salary, which I think they will have to

I will be furious if the Yankees get Trout. IMO he is over the hill in addition to being unable to stay healthy. The Yankees DO NOT need more big-contract oft-injured sluggers. And as for selling the farm they don't have much to sell.

I would not be interested in Trout as a Yankees fan. We already have to deal with Stanton. We've had to deal with Donaldson and Hicks and Ellsbury and Pavano and on and on.

No thank you. Not again.

+1 agree for all his greatness Trouts best years are behind, health a concern for last several years, and a contract that is huge.
I also do not see the Angels eating any of trouts contract but could be wrong.
And if someone gets him with a middle package could be a steal of a deal for a year or so if he can get a year or 2 of relative health. When he is healthy he still puts up some nice numbers

So Yankee fans don't want Trout...fair enough. Maybe Uncle Uncle Stevie can pay up and bring Trout to Queens. And hopefully Ohtani too :D

Uncle Stevie can have Trout, but please leave Ohtani alone. If the baseball gods are smiling down on us fans, then it will be Ohtani to the Dodgers.

hopefully Uncle Stevie stays away from Trout.
First he would have to trade away some assets and is just begin to rebuild the farm system and he would have to take over that contract on a great player that is getting up their in age and related health issue.
If fully healthy I would love to have him on my team but because of the health concerns I would prefer to stay away
Stevie better Sign Alonso to a long term contract and not trade him

Alonso looks more and more like Adam Dunn. BA .222 right now.

You are right Peter. With his batting average he is.

But the game has changed now where batting average is the outlier andpower numbers is what it about.

except for the special players like Acuna, Othani, Judge etc most players that put up 25 plus homers have high high strike outs and low averages.

But Alonso is hitting the homers over 40, hitting in RBI's over 100 and not many are near those number in the league and Alonso is been consistent with those types of numbers.

He is not a super star like some others and not putting up Olson, freeman numbers etc but he would be very very hard to replace his consistency and his production

For example
Most homers since 2018 190. 4th in all of MLB
Most RBI's since 2018 485. 11th in all of MLB.
most Runs since 2018 392. #31 in all of mlb

not bad for someone who is not hitting for average

As Alonso's Rookie season was 2019, if you look at numbers since when he was a Rookie, they are even more impressive:

#1 in Home Runs with 190 (2nd best is Olson with 174)
#1 in RBIs (666 to Olson's 650)
#9 in Slugging
#14 in OPS
#14 in Runs

wow, Dumb of me. But I was using 2018 because of many of the other top hitters.
But wow that is even more amazing.
I can deal with a lower batting average(still would prefer near .250) but with that consistency and production the Mets would be insane to lose him. Hard to replace those types of numbers

So far, Alonso's strongest suit is his availability. Hasn't missed many games at all in his career.

That's worth a lot of money to any team right there...as long as he generally keeps up what he is doing offensively.

I'd like to see him cut down on the strikeouts and up the walks a bit...but I don't see a lot of players improving in those categories once they reach their late 20's.

They are what they are at this point, and that hole in their swings usually just gets bigger as they age.

Apparently he's a much better 1st baseman then Dunn, because it's stunning how much his defense kills Dunn's WAR numbers, looking at his baseball reference page. :eek:

I never saw Dunn play 1st base, but I saw Jason Giambi play 1st base for years...and Dunn's defensive metrics make Giambi look like a Don Mattingly or Keith Hernandez in comparison....and Giambi was a baaaaaad 1st baseman. Maybe he just looked awful to me after years of being spoiled by Don Mattingly and Tino Martinez...but he's the one who made me think that a good 1st baseman in under-rated in both defensive metrics and fans always claiming the worst fielders get put there because it's such an easy position....which I call bullshit on.

I grew up playing baseball, and the only two positions that scared me to play were catcher and 1st baseman. Maybe because I was a little kid, but I wanted no part of either one.

I'm glad someone mentioned Matt Olson. He is putting up unreal numbers this year:

.281/.388/.619 with 51 HR, 116 R, 128 RBI :eek:

Acuna, Freeman, Betts and Olson are all having sensational seasons.

Agreed! Mookie got off to a slow start (for him) but has been fantastic. He and his infield eligibility have been carrying my fantasy team down the stretch :D

His minor league cards show him as a second baseman. Trivia -- what HOF outfielder's RC shows him as a second baseman?

Yes, but I don't believe he ever played there in the majors until this season.

Good question...without knowing the era I probably won't get it...