They could be made today. But it's still a fair amount of effort, and at least the paper stock isn't something you can just pick up at a craft store. (I tried a few, nothing they carry is the right thickness.)

And most fakers are lazy. Why spend a lot of money and effort to produce a card that will be closely examined, when you can print something that will pass from 10 feet on your home printer and sell it as "maybe a reprint" for stupid money and no scrutiny? And do that hundreds of times over.

But I do think Corey has a point, with a Wagner being a million + the attraction of making a great fake will draw someone with the necessary skills. And I have doubts that the examination PSA or SGC might do will be enough.

well, I'll have a go at how I'd examine a potential Wagner.

Paper thickness- Is it within the range of known good T206s. (From my small sample I checked, it's a very small range, very consistent thickness. )

Other paper aspects -
The stock is often coated, is it coated stock or not, and is that consistent with the specific back it has? (and preferably with another known Wagner with the same back.

Does the fiber length/type match other T206s. (a bit tougher, but looking at one closely enough the cardstock is distinctive, It's clearly different from a similar modern cardstock (Both craft store acid free cardstock, and comic book backing boards which are similar. ) The actual scientific test would destroy some of the cardstock, but a simple look with a microscope will actually get you most of the way there.

UV light - Does the cardstock react or not. Not a certain thing, as many modern acid free cardstocks also don't react. But if it does, it can almost 100% be eliminated as genuine.

Inks and printing-
Lots that can be seen with just a good magnifier. If I had a known Wagner to compare to. even the exact halftone pattern could be compared. For that matter a very high res scan would allow the same comparison, but I haven't seen one of a Wagner. (LOC has them available for most of the set)

Again, UV. I haven't done this yet, but how the different inks react should match a good T206.

The better tests

X-ray refraction spectroscopy would identify the exact composition of the paper, paper coating if any and the inks.
Even if someone did spectacular work and worked off a real Wagner, this is where it would all come undone.
There's been some work on Stamps only in the last 10 years or so. Some of the discoveries have been very interesting. Like for well over 100 years we all "knew" that the inks used on the first US stamp used rust as a colorant making a nice red brown, but also being abrasive and leading to premature plate wear. Checked, and the XRF says..... No Iron whatsoever!


I think the reasons this sort of stuff hasn't had a good track record with sports collectibles is that the people doing the examining, even if they have a machine like the VSC machines PSA and SGC have is that the data they give needs to be interpreted properly.

Like.... I'd guess your office has a lot of law books. I could come in and read a bunch of them, and I would probably know more than when I started. But that wouldn't get me anywhere near being as good as a genuine lawyer. And I'd put money on being just plain wrong a LOT.

It doesn't help that so many incompetent or dishonest autograph "authenticators" have claimed to be "forensic document examiners".

In the future I am confident there are a lot of things that will be able to be done that cannot be done today. My comment was about the present and past.

I know nothing about counterfeiting but I know humans are greedy and look for any angle to make a buck. I stick to what I wrote--I have yet to see a counterfeit vintage card that almost fooled me. My guess is that it would be far easier to counterfeit a modern card than it would be to counterfeit a vintage card.

The thing with high end counterfeits is that several things need to happen for it to be possible.

1) You need someone with the ability to do the actual counterfeiting work.
2) You need the equipment or a place to use it with no one else knowing about it.
3) Someone who is a scammer.
4) Knowledge of the card market.
5) Materials to do the work.
6) All this plus a little more needs to be done by as few people as possible to keep the secret.

Getting everything needed by someone who is a scammer would leave a small pool of people. There is a known ring in NJ that has been counterfeiting cards and then forging autos on them for years. So it is not like it isn't being done but few are doing it with any quality.

Personally if counterfeiting T206s I would do the Red Cobb. It is not rare and commands a decent price with a plain easy design. For T206s the only big thing would be a CNC machine to make the limestone plates. That and someone that can program the CNC machine to make the plates.

My favorite part is around 3 minutes, when the host implies that the grading is not legit because ACA is based in Canada. That's not the problem with ACA lol

Have you seen KSA graded cards lol?

Ben, what is this ring counterfeiting?

This is speculation, but I suspect "for the brands using far fewer cards it may have been whatever was the current group of fronts at the time the order came in" is exactly right; whatever the sheets currently being run were were printed up when that brand 'ordered' or however it was chosen that X brand would get Y card set. I doubt it was a pre-planned thing that, say, T42 would only appear on 25 of the 50 white border subjects with Emblem brand backs. I think this is indicative that some series were printed in waves; that, say, a big case of Piedmont packs sent to a distributor would not have all 50 subjects included in its packs, but only the same 25 subjects. Brands with only half weren't printed during both waves. There are strong indications, not absolute proof, of this wave type issuing in the ATC ledger.

As far as I am aware and remembering right now, before the T220 sheet we really only had the Ball letter that said it was American Lithographic doing the printing. Brett, Fullgraff's journal, Hyland's letter and the resulting other documents that were found mentioning some non-sport sets and silks were the first evidence (and they are conclusive evidence, this part is fact) that it was not AL directly doing the whole T card project with the ATC. It is deduction that AL farmed the work out to Brett and likely others; there is no hard evidence that Brett was a subsidiary partner of AL's silent monopoly, but I think that is probably the case and the anti-trust politics of the time mean we will never find a smoking gun document.

I think the find also suggests it may not have been just the ATC, but other non-cigarette makers involved in this project. The E229/D353 sheets originating with it, that bear a very similar list of names to those contracted with the ATC and their printers, are likely related. This connection is an opinion deduced from the evidence and not a proven fact.

I would say KSA is, from what I have seen, better than ACA at least. They grade trimmed and sheet cut cards (so does PSA ;)) and there opinion is junk, but I don't think they would stoop quite THIS low as to grade a Hygrade Wagner as a pre-production test card. The problem is not that they are Canadian :D. Thought it was a funny implication, the 'you need to get the card graded by an American company to auction it" followed immediately by the 'Montreal? Canada? Hm' tone.

These are some of the things that I have been working on with the print flaws. I'm pretty sure that the Old Mills and SC350/25's along with the Sovereign and Piedmont 350's were printed together or at the very least printed back to back.
I'm also almost certain that the T206's weren't all printed at the same facility.

If I ever get the chance, I want to go to the Lowell Historical society and see what info they might have on a local printer.
The company that did the orange borders boxes specialized in candy boxes. Those share some images with T206.

The company was in Boston, moved to Lowell with some publicity, printed the orange borders here in their new plant, and promptly went out of business.

I don't really have a solid address for that new plant, I have a guess as to where it was, but it's not making sense compared to the buildings there now, which are both old enough to be it. Unless the plant had to be torn down from a fire or something. and the current buildings are the replacements.


All of it makes me wonder if what I see as three different runs for much of the 150 and 350 series were more an issue of three different printers. Multiple shops being subcontractors makes the need for constant production less pressing.

It is strange I can't find anything from 1911-1918 but I found addresses from 1905-1930 minus the 8 year gap in the middle.

1905-1907 463 Commercial street Boston Mass.
1908-1910 Warrensville Lowell Mass.
1911-1918 ?
1919-1930 210 Broadway Everett Mass.

This might have had something to do with the gap

From the Boston Globe August 23 1913
Attachment 546754

I found some more information regarding the 1911-1918 gap. It looks like he filed for bankruptcy in 1910 and then his sons might have started the business back up again in 1919.

December 1910
Attachment 546757

May 1927
Attachment 546758
Attachment 546759

Interesting stuff, a lot more than I had found a while back.

The local historical society is an interesting mix of things, all local newspapers going back essentially to the beginning either hard copy or microfilm.
Tons of pictures from when a city wide architectural survey was done I think as a prelude to establishing the national park downtown.

But most other things are spotty and seldom organized at all.