Why would this not be the natural order of things? The visiting pitcher doesn't have to pitch the bottom half of the 9th if their team is losing after the top half either. You could make the same argument that the home team should be able to have a chance to pad their stats and get guys some more hits or home runs, etc.

The game is over after the top half of the 9th if the home team is winning because it wouldn't make sense for them to bat. It's not an advantage. It's practical.

right but batters not hitting in the 9th is 1/9th of the total hitting.. plus only 3-5 hitters will get a chance to hit lose their chance , not all of them and if their team won then its likely the best hitters already had a good offensive day


pitchers who dont have to pitch in the 6th is impacting it at 1/6th which is a huge difference., plus zero need to hit in the bottom of 9th when up but always a need for pitching in the 6th so its not apples to apples...


it can be practical not to credit the pitcher with the Win as well ... he gets 6 offensive innings and the home pitcher only gets 5 innings...that a huge difference....afterall this thread talks a lot about how many 'wins' for HOF consideration


Also people were arguing with me on this issue not thinking you get a W in that situation because to them it was not believable as opposed to not being practical

Hear thee! Hear thee!
 

I have made a few expressions that are used on the board like waterside property cards



Now if a Visting Pitcher gets a W due to his team only because his team got 1 more inning to hit versus the home pitcher.i am now calling those Ws, practical Wins.




So Mr. Bundy in this received received a practical W, i wonder who leads the league in practical wins, baseball reference needs get on this ASAP


https://www.mlb.com/gameday/twins-vs...ox,game=661808

People make this argument, but if a successful closer is just a failed starter, why doesn't EVERY team have a top of the line closer?

Guys who can do the job and do it for an extended period of time are actually pretty rare. Rivera, Hoffman, Wagner, etc.

It's kind of like people who argue against DH's being in the Hall of Fame. The DH has been around longer than I have, and I'm not exactly young. Even closers...if you think about the original "firemen" like Gossage and Fingers, you're talking primes in the late 70's/early 80's 40+ years ago. Even when you started to see more "one-inning" closers was 30+ years ago.

The game evolves...if we're only going to put 300 game winners in the Hall, we're done putting in pitchers. Just like if you're going to put every 400 HR hitter in there, ya gonna have to build a new wing to the hall.

Smoltz would of been an HOF closer , but how many closers would be HOF starting pitchers and at what ratio

There are a TON of number 2 pitchers on teams that would be all star closers.

many closers only have 2 pitches..its real hard to go through a lineup 3 times with that stuff even if both pitches are great..

Most teams have a hard time finding reliable closers so if there was some number 2 starter on the team who could finish games with their eyes closed, they would be.

I disagree. A #2 starter (or any quality starter) is more valuable than the best reliever. If a pitcher can give me 200 quality innings over the course of a season how is the guy who gives me 60 such innings more valuable? Runs don't care when they're scored. Your closer doesn't do you much good if you never have the lead!

disagree, you need a number 2 starter to win playoff series ....no team would take a solid number 2 starter and make them in a closer...now if the closer could be a number 2 pitcher they would convert them..im sure if you look at the salaries and value of money that will show you as well.. i have seen washed up starting pitchers ie. Jose Mesa et al. who become decent closers but never seen a washed up closer become a number 2 starter for a number of years or at least much much much more rare...

remember lots of number 2 starters go to the HOF or are at least argued...i would say andy petitte would be a number 2 starter for instance..

I'm not saying the number 2 should close, I'm questioning whether he could.

of course they could...not many failed closers are number 2 starters versus failed number 3-5 pitchers leading their team in saves for a year or so or more


Look at Tom Gordon, when he tailed off he became a closer... It can be argued Mariano Rivera was a failed Starter.

Wilie Hernandez failed starter....

i dont see Eric Gagne lighting it up as a starting pitcher....

in fact usually when you fail a closer you could fund yourself without any job......you always hear about bad closers giving up tons of runs in non save situations but squeak by on save situations..so when the saves stop coming sometimes they out of league in a year or so....if fail as a starter you can always be a reliever even if not a closer..


Its not like kimbrel will becaome a starter if he loses his closer job, its more likely he out of the league in a few years if that happens for example...

if walker bueler comes back next year, i bet he would be a better closer than half the closers out there if dodgers decide to switch him

I think you're discounting what closers do and how difficult it is to be an elite closer for a long period of time. There are very few closers with any kind of longevity.

I don't support what you're saying about failed starters either. So what if a guy started out as one thing in pro ball and became another? Why is that discounted? What are you looking to take away? Mariano Rivera was a shortstop when he got signed. Jorge Posada was a second baseman when he started his career in the minors.

Yes, two different positions, with two different skill sets.

Nobody says "most shortstops could play second base, so there shouldn't be any second basemen in the hall of fame."

Or maybe they do, but those people are probably kinda nuts. :D

well like the NBA with Center/Forward , players are starting to play multiple postions more in the MLB

but closer and starting pitcher is not the same as 2nd and SS. Plus defense really isnt factored into it unless the player is on the extreme extreme end good or bad, if they hit 600 home runs i dont think defense matters at all etc.

you keep moving the goal posts....we are talking about pitching..yeah all great players that were pitching in the major leagues may of been hitters at one time as they were elite athletes growing up..so waht.. Heck there is a DH now so its just about pitching and dont need to bring up the fact about them being hitters.

So show me all of these guys that used to close that are now good Starting pitchers ..i can name you a LOT of good closers that were failed starters.......yeah may be hard for pitchers who werent good enough to start to fulfill a job as closer and those are hard to find.....agree its hard to find a closer from that pool of talent.....i argue its not that hard to find a closer from the 25th-40th best Starting pitcher in mlb..which i would assume is about a 2nd starter on most teams...

Can probably run down the list of number 2 starters and the closer on their team and given a choice of closer, we would rather have the SP be the closer ...Pablo Lopez would be better than whoever the marlins use to close for example.....

you also forget a starting pitcher who may have to hold back some velocity and some pitches for the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup doesnt have to worry about that when pitching 1 inning.......2 and 3 run leads are still 'saves', it doesnt matter how much a team is up, a starting pitcher still needs great stats to be considered an all star....Wins arent enough as has been discussed at length..

DeGrom has 2 BB in his first 5 starts back and 46 strikeouts.

Mets taking it easy with 6 inning starts. Fine with me. Let him go nine in the World Series.

He is amazing and they are smart for ramping him up to ensure he stays healthy for the WS run. Him and Scherzer make the METS dangerous in the playoffs him they are both healthy against any team

i think he would be HOF closer and could pitch 1/6 of the innings as he would have as a starting pitcher and extend career by years to get the good totals for HOF that he likely wont get as a SP

im sure the current Mets closer who is an all star and likely top 1 or 2 closer this year would be able to match Degrom's Starting pitching stats since closing is as hard as starting pitching

Is it harder to be tall or fast?

46 K, 2 -- yeah, 2 -- BB so far.

Make that 55K, 3 BB. LOL.

When healthy hard to argue anyone is better.

Simply amazing and again no run support but he gets the win

His stat line is looking amazing and each game he does this his contract money keeps going up

If he stays healthy they will be tough in playoffs

After last night's game vs. the Pirates, deGrom's WHIP (walks and hits per innings pitchted) is .55, which equals his total for last year.

I realize both years were shortened because of injury, but the best WHIP ever for a full season was Pedro Martinez in 2000, when his WHIP was .7373

So deGrom's WHIP this year and last year is 25% lower than the best WHIP ever for a full season.

Note that #2 on baseball reference's list is of best single season WHIP years is Kent Maeda with a WHIP of .75 in 2000 when he only pitched 66 innings.
deGrom pitched 92 innings last year when his WHIP was only .55, so I am not sure why that isn't showing up as #1 on the all-time list.

2020 is different because of the shortened season. I believe you need 1 inning pitched for every game of the season, so 162 in a regular season and 60 in 2020.

That makes sense. Thanks

63k, 4 bb. 0.55 WHIP.

When healthy simply amazing

Nugget from tonight's broadcast: deGrom now has 39 consecutive starts allowing 3 runs or less.

This ties Jim Scott's record from 118 years ago.

73K, 4 bb. LOL Unimaginable.

Agreed he has been simply amazing

Now if the Mets can hit and if he stays healthy they will be a dangerous team

86 k, 4 bb.

Thank God he is out of that cesspool New York.

The Rangers, though? Didn't see that coming

Yah I thought he was gonna land with the Braves, closer to his home in Florida. Although these guys nowadays have 2-3 homes, so just grab the dough.

hopefully he'll stay healthy now that he'll get some fresh air in Texas.

Not the best place for him to land but it will enhance their team. However, I have no issue with him leaving the MET’s 5 years for a 34 year old that started 38 times in last 3 years is a problem. No matter how good when healthy.
Best skills of a player is Availability

I don't see this turning out well for the Rangers. He will look spectacular at times, but he's not exactly a workhorse. I think the Rangers will be lucky to get him at a rate of $2 million per start, throughout the life of his contract.

Yeah, $2M per start is not great value. And that's assuming he starts 15 games a year (his high water mark for starts over the last 3 years) during the next 5 years.

I love deGrom, but its hard to see him getting back to a consistent level of play.

Hopefully the Mets can go out and get some talent with the money they are saving. I'm not sure Verlander, who turns 40 in February is the what they need. Would be great to get some young talent to go along with veterans like Scherzer.

There is something to be said about non super fireballers who can give you 25 B level starts....its almost like you super super stars you should start them in 2h of year so yo have them for the playoff run since more teams make the playoffs now theres a margin for error..

its almost a waste of time to win 110 games when injury chances to starters is 50% higher or whatever versus winning 90 games with your best 2 pitchers available....again there is a much higher margin of error to make the playoffs ...that a great amount of B level starters with a good hitting lineup will get you into the dance...

B Level Starters like Mikolas type level...

Strange decision for Texas and stranger decision for deGrom. Who was the last big pitcher to sign with Texas and be good? I would have thought he’d be trying to sure up his HOF case. Lots of free agents have gone to Texas to die out.

Met's Replace Degrom with Verlander 2 years $86 Million plus a potential vesting for a 3rd.
A lot for an older player but should be worth it and the risk is less with a short term deal

they should wait 40 games or so then break in verlander....why make him start all year if can make playoffs without him in begging .alonso is a beast...

Interesting thought.
Looking forward to watching him and Alonso is definitely a beast

WOW

I hope this is not a sign for the Rangers but

Jason's debut is delayed with a soreness

https://nypost.com/2023/02/15/jacob-...rangers-debut/

As a Mets fan, this is like the sun coming up

I hope this is a blip and I hope he is healthy to pitch for them and hope he does well.
Would love him in the HOF some day and with a Mets Cap on

But this is what is so frustrating with him as a fan he is so amazingly talented when on the field pitching but injury bug the last 3 years keeps him off the mound to much and to often.

Thats what makes Nolan Ryan so special to me....that he was a fireballer and played for so long.....Clemens as well but he has other issues..

I don't understand why fans have hatred for guys who leave. Have you ever moved jobs? I have. Sometimes it's for more money, sometimes it's just for a change, sometimes for family or other reasons. These guys have zero loyalty or affinity for any of these teams. I loved Degrom when he was great, and he moved on, and, well so do my ex wife. Best of luck against everyone except us. This whole narative that DeGrom never properly thanked Mets fans publicly on his departure is ridiculous.

It's like Jerry Seinfeld says, being a sport fan is really just being a fan of laundry. We loved that guy until he leaves. Then we hate him. And we hated that guy, but, wow now he's on our team, and now we love him. It's all pretty ridiculous on some level. I have no doubt if Clemens had become a Met a few years after the Piazza bat throwing situation people would have loved him. Ditto Chase Utley.

Met fans bad mouth Matt Harvey today. Over what? Being a generally asshole? Well we knew that when he was on the team didn't we. But then he was our asshole. Guy was a warrior.

Fans love building guys up and then shitting on them.

I generally root for guys that move on from my teams. Especially if they were homegrown, or it seems like they got the shaft or were taken for granted when they were let go, traded, not signed, etc....

My favorite example is Ron Francis. Whalers were always a middling franchise when they were in Hartford. They thought Francis was washed up and injury prone at 27 years old. Traded him and Ulfie Samuelsson for a can of corn and a box of cereal.

I watched from afar as Francis got to play on the same line as Mario Lemieux, and Ulfie was still a solid defenseman, along with a top enforcer for Pittsburgh, while Hartford drifted to the bottom of the standings for the foreseeable future.

Francis eventually made his way back, to the Carolina version of the Whalers and better times, but by then I had lost interest.

Francis eventually became the #2 assist guy and #5 points guy of All-Time while also establishing himself as one of the most durable Centers of All-Time. Not bad for a washed up, injury prone throwaway.

My 2nd favorite was Dave Winfield becoming a Playoff and World Series hero for Toronto in 1992, after George Steinbrenner spent 10 years sh*tting all over him for not being Reggie Jackson in 1981.

I also gotta thank Winfield for getting Georgie Boy suspended eventually, and creating a window for the Yankees "Core 5" (yes I'll call them that), to be nurtured in the farm system for a bit, instead of getting traded for old has beens and coulda beens.

The modern day revisionist hero worship of Steinbrenner these days from rabid dude-bro Yankee fans who don't remember what a shitheel George was from 1979 on, annoys me to no end.

Steve, maybe my comment came off the wrong way - I'm a fan of DeGrom and I wish him well (even though I think it's kind of funny that, like Ohtani, he chose to go to a not-so-great team).

I was more expecting what usually happens when players leave the org - they go on to be better. (Like Scott Kazmir) I suppose that could still happen but my intended meaning was more along the lines of "yep, he's still the same old DeGrom".

I hear you. If I misunderstood your sentiments, that's on me and apology for it.

Maybe I spend too much time on Mets Twitter. Seems like legions of Met fans are just wishing the worst for DeGrom.

There are a lot of people in the world I utterly despise, but a former player for my team isn't one of them.


QUOTE=BobbyStrawberry;2315080]Steve, maybe my comment came off the wrong way - I'm a fan of DeGrom and I wish him well (even though I think it's kind of funny that, like Ohtani, he chose to go to a not-so-great team).

I was more expecting what usually happens when players leave the org - they go on to be better. (Like Scott Kazmir) I suppose that could still happen but my intended meaning was more along the lines of "yep, he's still the same old DeGrom".[/QUOTE]

Fans don't like to see players leave for the same reason they don't cheer for other teams.

Yankees fans love seeing Mattingly at the stadium. They could care less about Robinson Cano. Shouldn't it be that way?

Not cheering for a guy is different that actively despising him and hoping something shitty happens to him.

That's typically an irrational reaction to most things in life. I don't feel as though the average Mets fan wants Jacob deGrom to suffer on a personal level.

No worries - yeah I agree. I've got some some of his cards and gear and I didn't burn any of it when he left! :D

I agreed with most of the others
1. I do not believe we should disparage some one unless they deserve it. He does not deserve it. He has a right to get the most money possible that someone is willing to pay and it was Texas.
2. A a Met he was a class act and he was a fantastic pitcher when Healthy. Sadly last few years he was not consistently healthy.
3. I hope he does well with Texas (As long as he does not hurt my Team :D:D
4. I hope he stays healthy long enough to get into the HOF because he is trending that way
5. Wish the Mets still had him

deGrom looking good so far, despite limited playing time (you could say that about the last 4 years though).

He is averaging an absurd 14.5 Ks/9 Innings, which would be the highest ever. He is leading the league in strikeouts at 43, even though he has pitched only 26.2 innings. And with only 3 walks, his strikeout to walk ratio is an insane 14.33 (the highest single season ever is 11.62).

His WHIP is .79 which would be in the top 6 single seasons ever including Negro Leagues.

He is leading the league in Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) with 1.42, which would also be in the top 6 single seasons ever including Negro Leagues.

And the Rangers are in 1st place with 2 less losses than the Mets. Who knows if he will stay healthy, but the Mets could really use him right now with Verlander and Scherzer out. They are saying Verlander could be back as early as their trip to Detroit in the first week of May though, and Scherzer's suspension will be overy by then too. Hopefully deGrom, Scherzer and Verlander all find a way to play significant time this year so we can see these generational pitchers pitch.

with the extra playoff spots..you have a margin of error and still make it to the playoffs with your ace..


the measurement is in the playoff games to clinch or to avoid elimination..

He's at it again. 43K, 3BB.

Let's see if he can pitch 162 innings for the 5th time of his career.

doesnt matter..as long as he can pitch around 50 innings in the playoffs...

The Texas Rangers were 68 - 94 in their 4th place AL West finish a year ago.
If deGrom can help them reach the playoffs it would be a pretty big deal.

Winning some games in the playoffs would be icing on the cake.

With that .420 winning percentage last year I'm failing to see how the Rangers are such a shoe in they don't need DeGrom before the playoffs.

I’m pretty sure he’s trying to make some hyperbolic point about pitchers only needing to be good in the playoffs but I’m not sure where he’s going with it. Why wouldn’t you want your big money pitcher to be good in the playoffs? And why would a team who isn’t a contender at all sign a big money pitcher with 50 innings they’re unlikely to play in mind?

We all agree Degrom is a great pitcher when healthy and on the mound.

Between spring training and thru the first 20 games he has had several Health scares. Luckily minor but when Healthy he is one of the best.

may only need to be close to .500 to make playoffs....

Well Yu Darvish hasnt done much in the playoff games...but been pitched a lot last year

rather have a guy pitch Ohtani type innings for the season and then pitch 50 in playoffs...then someone dominate regular season then lose first playoff series

the point is ...years ago there were only a few playoff teams...now you can have a large margin of error to still get into the playoffs.....unlike many sports..one dominate player, the pitcher can give you a very high chance on his own to win you that key playoff game to advance on or to win a series etc...

I am not seeing why one would assume a team that was a .420 club last year is such a shoe in for the playoffs that they don’t need DeGrom during the regular season. Bottom seed teams sub .500 that manage to get in are on the very border and need players to actually play.

I think we're missing the elephant in the room here. Expanded Playoffs or not, who on earth pitches 50 innings in the playoffs nowadays, let alone Degrom? :confused:

He'd need almost 10 starts, and they sure as hell aren't going to throw somebody like him out there on short rest.

agreed the likely hood of any pitcher pitching that many innings is most likely not going to happen.
For Degrom it most likely would not happen because they would even if Texas made the playoffs they would want to keep Degrom healthy thru out and would be load managing him

Sadly Degrom did not last a month before going on the DL

They put him on the 15 day. Hopefully it is not longer.

I believe he was injured to start the season too. Such an amazing talent but he just can't seem to stay healthy.

Good thing they don't need him to pitch until the playoffs.

It's just uncanny how delicate he is.

He was injured several times since the start of spring training

While the DL has been changed to the IL - so, as not to offend...perhaps, in his case, it should remain the D (eGrom) List.

He will never get to the Hall unless he can find a way to stay healthy.

Degrom just moved to the 60 Day IL and has not pitched since April 28th.
Feel sorry for him great when healthy but has not pitched more then 15 games in last 4 years approx.
Also feel bad for Texas paid all that money and waiting to get their ace. Although they are having a really good season so far

Sad update

Degrom to have Tommy John surgery and will be out rest of this year and most of next year potentially

Wow, so he could be 36 when he comes back. Rangers knew the risks but obviously not what they were hoping for when they signed him.

Aside from Darvish has Texas managed to sign a recent ace that was actually an ace? Darvish was a decade ago already.

If he was still in the running for the Hall, by whatever slender thread, that's all over now. Are his mechanics that bad? There has to be some reason he has been so unbelievably prone to injury.