Agree with you Howard. Don't think it would have been the sole reason, but maybe a contributing factor, among many others, that finally helped tip the scales for Ebay to finally take action?

And as for legal consequences of alleged shilling, just on this forum alone, how many times have posts brought up suspected shilling and other issues with PWCC activity on Ebay? And one can then only imagine how many times people have filed complaints and reports with Ebay about such PWCC questionable sales and activities. Plus, even though we can no longer see bidders names and info on Ebay auction sales, Ebay does have all that info. Is it possible that after years of complaints and allegations against PWCC that Ebay finally went ahead and really started looking into it, and did not like what they found?

Plus, what does the seller's agreement regarding questionable activities and Ebay's ability to terminate someone really say? I don't personally know, but could there be an implied waiver of someone's ability to sue Ebay in such an instance? Also don't forget, if PWCC was to try to sue Ebay, wouldn't that also open PWCC up to having their records and activities examined and exposed in a public court of law, which they may not like?!?!

I bought an item from PWCC 3 days ago and haven’t received any email or message from eBay. There was a last second bid which bumped up my bid but that is not unusual. I generally avoid PWCC auctions because of what I have read about them the past few years but this was a scarce item. I checked the tracking and it’s on its way. I’m going to watch what happens between eBay and PWCC…

Which is worse?
 

The mess in Afghanistan? Or the eBay - PWCC mess here at home?

Fake email re PWCC
 

UGG. This is spam. Not in our ebay messages. Wants you to click a link if you have concerns about a recent purchace. Don't.

No longer any active items listed for PWCC. From 18,000 a few hours ago to zilch.

And could it also be to possibly reduce/eliminate any potential blowback on Ebay? If something ever did go down on PWCC, and despite all evidence, Ebay never did anything about it, could they be brought into repurcussions and potential liability by never having acted on what they should have seen/known? By Ebay doing what they are doing now, could this be a partial CYA on their part in regards to PWCC? If nothing else, it doesn't put PWCC in a good light for a lot more people than already didn't like/trust them. Not to mention, this move by Ebay will likely put at least a temporary financial squeeze on PWCC, at least until they can get whatever new platform/program they were going to be starting up or moving to fully functioning and operating at least close to 100%.

So they did take down all the active auctions as well, WOW! I was wrong in thinking they may just let the auctions run their course to not upset so many bidders. That would kind of made Ebay look like they were doing a last money grab on commisions from those auction sales though, so maybe best they just pull the plug on everything.

This is from eBay now.

ebay must see the writing on the wall, honestly.

sports cards are still booming (relatively, even during this dip) and people dont want to pay all of the associated ebay fees, and i think they are crying out for an alternative.

myslabs hasnt really taken off yet, but they seem to be making progress. there are a bunch of other outlets, but ebay still gets the most eyes. if a bunch of the big players start to leave ebay, its going to take a big chunk out of ebay revenue.

also, you have to immediately kind of walk this back to nat turner's group buying goldin, and people theorizing that they wanted to turn goldin into a true competitor for ebay for cards, not just for more high end stuff. that sale happened like 6 weeks ago, and seems pretty prescient now.

big changes are coming, it seems.

The part in bold is just laughable. It was carefully worded to read, "PWCC's employees have never engaged in any behavior that violates ebay's agreements and policies."

But note how they never claimed anything about its owners! :rolleyes:

It's like "true confessions." As much as I hate PWCC and all they do for the hobby every now and then I buy something from them. I don't think I got shilled too badly?

I think you did good. But I am a HUGE fan of "Authentic" cards.

Never mind that, consider the source of the representation. Why would you believe him?

I find this all very strange.

I currently have one card that I won a few days ago in PWCC's current auction, but have not yet paid for. I normally wait until all individual items I'm considering end, before sending a full payment, as PWCC allows.

Even with a current item pending payment, I did not receive this email being talked about, from ebay. I also do not have any new ebay messages regarding PWCC in my ebay account.

I did get an email from PWCC today around 4:30PM Central Time, where they referenced an email from ebay.

I also still had around 20-25 PWCC cards on my watch list, and they have all disappeared. PWCC now has no items currently up and running.

Steve

Just coming across this now.

Somehow, this thread reminds me of the mound meeting in Bull Durham - "We're dealing with a lot of s#!+"

Now, ebay has removed the card I won, a 1952 Topps Warren Spahn, from my account.

So it looks like if you have won an item from PWCC this month, and have not yet paid for it, ebay is cancelling it.

Steve

Now that Watchcount doesn't exist for checking cards and PWCC has been axed from eBay, I'm guessing they won't be doing their Market Research thing where you can see sold ebay listings going back years. So how do we get that information now?

That kind of sucks! I guess they figure since they booted PWCC they don't want to potentially be on the hook if you pay them and they don't follow through and send you the card. What could Ebay do to PWCC in that case?

So I wonder what happens to people that did pay and haven't gotten their cards yet?

Also, what is to stop someone who just got a card from PWCC filing with Ebay to say they never got it? Not like PWCC will be cooperating with Ebay anytime soon now. Will Ebay step up and honor those alleged non-received cards? Can't see PWCC ignoring a customer who actually didn't receive a card, but under the circumstances can see someone making a false claim of non-receipt against PWCC as well. Don't think Ebay or PWCC want to tick off any customers any more than they already have given the circumstances.

Don't know, but was PWCC already using Ebay's managed payment program, or had they not switched yet? Can imagine Ebay trying to freeze their funds as long as possible to mitigate any such claims. This could be interesting as well.

just checked, the 3 t206 that i won a few nights ago i had already paid for and they already shipped. guess i made it in under the deadline

Not every day 20,000 auctions or whatever it was get zapped. And with no notice it appears.

My gut tells me this is eBays way of trying to damage PWCC's rep for leaving.

They likely have lots of proof of shilling, and other shenanigans, regarding PWCC but because of the cash flow, never cashed that card in, until now.

Yeah maybe Brentsy pushed their luck taking their high end auction offsite. I am sure the revenue was nice but come on, this is ebay, a company with a market cap of 50 billion dollars.

You done good...:oThey would have bid you up to 100K Private shill bidding you the trimmed card anyway. You were lucky:)

Ecommercebytes article
 

Wow! Pretty crazy turn of events today. I've read a lot of conspiracy theories so far, some rather comical. I think a few observations are probably worth noting though, if trying to figure out what's actually happening behind the scenes. I'm just speculating and exercising my critical thinking skills though here, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't know anyone on the inside at either company who is in charge of making these decisions.

A few observations:

1 - PWCC has been working on their own separate platform to compete against eBay. Their Premier Auction in July was the first launch of part of their new independent platform. This is just the tip of the iceburg. As they've stated in their response to the eBay letter, they have much bigger ambitions that are soon to launch.

2 - Thus far, eBay has only banned PWCC. They didn't ban Probstein, which has gotten just as much heat on the forums as PWCC regarding this topic.

3 - PWCC's definition of "shill bidding" is perhaps peculiarly worded on their website. "Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid." https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/faq

4 - I believe it is rather common for many auction houses to expressly allow shill bidding in their TOS (or so I've read)

5 - In the past, eBay has repeatedly demonstrated that they couldn't care less about shill bidding (I recently created a thread on this topic).

6 - Historically, eBay has not taken well to competition over the years, nor criticism. They have bought out numerous start-up auction sites over the years in an effort to maintain their monopoly, and I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the recent news articles about former eBay employees who were recently sentenced to prison for cyberstalking a couple from Massachusetts who published articles criticizing eBay.


What does this all mean? What's actually going on here?

I don't buy for a second that this is eBay's attempt at cracking down on shill bidding. That's bullshit. If eBay wanted to crack down on this, they would have done so a long time ago, and they would have done it from the inside. They are the ones with all of the relevant bidding behavior and user data. Not the sellers. They can easily crack down on shill bidding, but they've chosen not to, likely because it's a project that would take money out of their pockets.

To me, this smells like it's one of two things.
1) The most likely scenario to me is that eBay is pissed off at PWCC because PWCC basically built their brand on eBay's platform and now they think they are big enough that they can just create their own platform to compete against eBay, taking hundreds of millions of dollars of business along with them, so eBay decided to tarnish their brand on their way out the door. Sort of the "you can't quit, you're fired!" approach.
2) The not-so-recent FBI investigation into the sports card market has begun to finally shown its teeth after dragging along for many years in silence, and they are somehow just now knocking on eBay's door, asking for records on PWCC's bidding activity. I find this to be a rather low likelihood though for a multitude of reasons, the least of which is eBay's otherwise couldn't-care-less approach to shill bidding in general. If eBay were feeling heat from the FBI, they would have tightened up shill bidding long before now.

Also note that eBay's wording is rather suspect to me. "Individuals associated with PWCC"... Really? That's the best they could do? Notice what they didn't say. "PWCC is engaged in shill bidding." or "PWCC personnel is engaged with shill bidding." or "PWCC employees have engaged in shill bidding". This email was without question, carefully crafted by eBay's legal team and likely signed off on by the CEO prior to being sent out. This is a strategically worded email. "Individuals associated with PWCC" to me reads as "people who consigned with PWCC", not PWCC employees. It's reads like a cleverly worded lawyer trick that has the intention of misleading its audience into believing that PWCC employees are shill bidding their eBay listings, but is worded just soft enough that if challenged in court (which it will be) they can simply say that they meant the people who consigned with PWCC were doing the shill bidding, not PWCC themselves.

Based on PWCC's response, this came out of left field. If eBay were truly just concerned about shill bidding, they wouldn't have just blindsided one of their top sellers on the entire platform. PWCC sold hundreds of millions of dollars last year alone on eBay. They would have had a meeting with Brentsy to discuss how serious they are about preventing shill bidding at the very least. They would have coordinated on this effort if preventing shill bidding was the goal. And if they had done that already, then this wouldn't have come out of left field for PWCC (which appears to be clearly the case here).

And as far as preventing shill bidding goes, PWCC has actually done far more than eBay or any other consigner I've encountered to combat this. They send you emails warning you to confirm that you intend to actually purchase an item after placing a bid if you haven't bought from them previously (I have this very email in my inbox somewhere). Otherwise they will cancel your bid. You must be vetted by thier finance team in order to participate in their Premier Auctions (I've been through this too), and if you win an item in any of their auctions but don't pay for it, they will ban your account and you won't be able to bid on their aucitons again. These are all steps to prevent shill bidding. What more can you really expect them to do? They are a consignment company. They're not eBay themselves. They don't have access to all the user data and bid history of everyone like eBay does. There's only so much they can actually do to prevent shill bidding. Most of what can be done is and should be eBay's responsibility, not PWCC's.

That said, if it were to come out that PWCC has some top-secret operation in place to where they've hired an army of North Korean hackers to create thousands of fake eBay accounts who shill bid all of their auctions for them, or Brentsy and crew have shill bidding sessions themselves at the office, then that'd be something rather extraordinary, but I highly doubt this is the case. At best, they might have a disagreement on what the definition of "shill bidding" is to begin with. Remember, Brentsy defines a shill bid as a bid with no intention of making payment if you win regardless of who you are or if you have any association with the consigner, whereas maybe eBay thinks it's a bid placed on behalf of the consigner regardless of whether or not they plan to proceed with payment, should they happen to win.

I don't think this changes much at all in terms of the overall market. The people doing the shill bidding are the people sending in consignments and flippers who are trying to artificially inflate sold listings prices of cards that they own. They won't stop just because PWCC is gone. All those cards are just going to get sent to other consignment companies. They're still going to shill bid these auctions, they're just going to be doing it with Probstein or 4SC or whoever else now.

The responsibility to prevent shill bidding lies solely on eBay's shoulders, not the consignment companies.

The banning of PWCC is a huge and drastic move by eBay, a move that will surely cost them money. As businesses are always driven by the desire to make money, first and foremost, there must be a very compelling reason for them to do it. The only reason that makes sense to me is that the long awaited FBI investigation is coming to a close, and PWCC is going to be hit with Mastro-like charges. EBay wants to separate themselves from PWCC, and that investigation, and those charges.
Of course, this is only my opinion. I have no facts to back this up.
I can't see eBay doing this out of spite because PWCC is going to make their own auction site. A business that operates on spite is a very unprofessional business, and all their execs should be canned, if that's what they are doing.
As always, time will tell, but this is a huge move. By the way, I didn't get the email from eBay. I do believe I am on PWCC's email list as I receive email from them all the time.
I did buy one item from PWCC, but I believe it was the only one I ever bought from them. It was an large, ungraded lot of 1962 Jell-O cards. That is my number one collecting interest, so I went for it. I have bid on other items that they have for sale, but I always get outbid. Their items generally sell for higher prices than I am willing to pay.

Alot happened in a very very short time.

We will have to wait and see if there are any further explanations from either side and
Time will tell what the fallout is from it

Stay Tuned

Wasn’t there a thread a few years back where someone posted text messages with pwcc encouraging someone to bid on their own auction item to drive up the price

to all of those who are saying Ebay will miss PWCC's money:

PWCC did around 200 million in sales on Ebay last year. The rumor is they pay somewhere between 1 and 3% to Ebay. That's $2 - $6 Million for the year. In 2020 Ebay did over 10 BILLION in revenue.

For those of you saying Ebay doesn't want the competition from PWCC:

Unless PWCC is opening a site where users can sell their own items, it's not competition, it's just another auction company.

Big players in the hobby are fly specks in the world of fortune 500 companies. Does that mean Ebay didn't do this out of spite? Hell no. It could be very similar to an old tenet of racketeering. You make an example of one guy so the next guy doesn't get any bright ideas.

can't see their own platform working nearly as well for them, especially since it was confirmed to all of us that they were shilling. I won't be bidding anymore for sure.

PS - Just got my 1921 Exhibit from you on ebay, many thanks.

That's a good way to look at it - A CYA. But the FBI and Justice Department took their time with Bill Mastro and Greg Marino to secure an airtight case. The FBI almost never divulges their moves so if ebay is making statements like this, they probably worried that digital forensic experts could implicate the company. The FBI has been looking into this since 2018 and put in a lot of time and effort for "nothing". The ones who really know what's going on behind the scenes are not those in the hobby, but the FBI and Justice Department. It'll be up to them to decide if there's enough evidence to go forward and I suspect it'll take a judge to have a good understanding of a government case like this as well. I think it was Ronald Guzman who presided over Mastro and the FBI has hobby experts too so it should be interesting going forward.
I also put blame on PSA too.

That was my thought. I'm sure this is not the publicity and fanfare PWCC was looking for when launching their own platform. Imagine the shenanigans that will go on when bidders no longer have the guise of Ebay protection to fall back on if they feel there were wronged by unethical practices.

As the housing bubble inflated and people got in over their head Congress was involved in "steroids in baseball"


This time, maybe they will go after sportscards as a nice distraction.

It's true that PWCC's money is not very much relative to eBay as a whole. But if the FBI announced that it was pressing charges or investigating eBay for colluding with PWCC on defrauding bidders, that would result in huge and very unwelcome negative publicity that would have a big effect on all of eBay. They certainly want to avoid that, so my guess is that the FBI showed eBay the evidence they have on PWCC, and eBay is scrambling to distance themselves from PWCC and show the Feds that they are not going to tolerate that behavior any more.

From PWCC's site:

PWCC MARKETPLACE/EBAY UPDATE
PWCC Marketplace/eBay Update
We will no longer be selling through eBay and all PWCC listings will be removed from eBay immediately. Premier Auction listings will be unaffected as they are listed on the PWCC platform and the August Premier Auction will close on August 21st. The September Premier Auction is still scheduled to start on September 1st. To read our official statement click here.

What is the update on PWCC and eBay and what's impacted?
We will no longer be selling through eBay and all PWCC listings will be removed from eBay. Premier Auction listings will be unaffected and the August Premier Auction will close on August 21st. The September Premier Auction is still scheduled to start on September 1st.

What is PWCC's stance on shill bidding?
Shill bidding is a bid placed without the intention to honor it - regardless of who placed the bid. As outlined in our Marketplace Tenets PWCC has clear rules that no one may place a bid unless that bid is intended to win the item - not consignors, friends of consignors, people who own other versions of the card, etc. PWCC has never engaged in nor condoned the practice of shill bidding or manipulating the card market. PWCC is proud of the work we do to ensure a trusted marketplace and vehemently deny eBay's claims regarding shill bidding.

Can I still sell my cards with PWCC?
Since March, our team of developers has been focused on building and improving the Premier Auction experience which is currently live and has always been independent of eBay.

Sales through PWCCMarketplace.com will be the foundation for the future Monthly Auction, Flash Auction, and Fixed Price Marketplace. The initial design of these marketplaces is in place, and we’re committed to make them the most user-friendly and trusted tools in the industry. Although this platform shift happened sooner than we planned, we are excited to relaunch the marketplaces on our own website soon.

Currently, PWCC currently conducts Premier Auction each month for cards with a market value over $25,000 and we can always look to help you find a buyer privately.

I have cards up for bid in the August Monthly Auction. What will happen to my cards?
All cards that have sold in the August Monthly Auction will complete the sale process as normal, and you will receive proceeds from the sale on the payout day. Any item that did not yet sell in the August Monthly Auction will be removed from eBay and will be placed in your Vault free of charge and listed in the PWCC-hosted Monthly Auction, which will be available soon.

I submitted cards for the September Monthly Auction. What will happen to these cards?
September Monthly Auction items will be placed into your Vault, free of charge, ready to be sold in our future PWCC-hosted Monthly Auction, which will be available soon. If you do not already have a Vault Account, we will help you create one.

What if I'd like my cards returned to me?
Should you prefer to have your unsold cards returned, please contact customer service and we will do so at our expense.

My card(s) sold in the first few days of August Monthly Auction. Will I still be paid out?
Yes, all cards that have closed will complete the collections process, and if paid by the buyer, will be paid out in full. If the buyer does not remit payment, items will be placed into your Vault, free of charge, ready to be sold in our future PWCC-hosted Monthly Auction which will be available soon.

Can I still use Flash Auction?
Flash Auctions are currently on hold until we can soon offer them again on our own website.

Can I use Fixed Price to sell cards?
The Fixed Price Marketplace is currently on hold until we can soon offer them again on our own website.

What happens if I have a card currently live in Flash Auction or live on Fixed Price?
All items previously listed for a Flash Auction have been placed back into your Vault, ready to be sold under our future Flash Marketplace. All items previously listed for Fixed Price will soon be placed back into your Vault, ready to be sold under our future Fixed Price Marketplace.

What happens to items in my Vault?
Nothing. Those items are still safe and fully-insured, stored in our secure facility, operated exclusively by PWCC.

What are the fees to remove items from the Vault?
Fees to fulfill out of the Vault remain unchanged and are outlined here. Existing promotional rates also remain unchanged.

Can I still send cards from eBay to the Vault?
Yes you can. We are still accepting Vault submissions, and we are still honoring the FREEVAULT promo until Sept. 30th. Items can still be stored in our Vault, ready to be sold either in our existing Premier Auction or in our future PWCC-hosted Monthly, Flash, or Fixed-Price Marketplaces.

Can I still take out a loan through PWCC Capital?
Yes, we would be pleased to consider you for a loan. Contact our Customer Service Team via email or chat to start the process.

Is the FreeVault Promo still going to be accepted for safely storing cards?
Yes. The FREEVAULT promo is live until Sept. 30th and items can still be stored in our Vault, ready to be sold either in our existing Premier Auction or in our future PWCC-hosted Monthly, Flash, or Fixed-Price Marketplaces.

What happens to the current cards in the August Premier Auction?
Premier Auction is hosted on our site and has no affiliation with eBay. Premier Auction will continue to run business as usual.

Will the Premier Auction still end on Saturday, August 21 at 7pm?
Yes, Premier Auction is still scheduled to end at 7PM PT on August 21st with extended bidding happening immediately after.

I want to keep my Premier Auction purchase in the Vault. Is that service still available?
Yes. If you win an item in Premier Auction then you have the option of storing it for free in the Vault.

How can you assure me that shill bidding is not taking place in the current and future Premier Auctions?
As part of our Marketplace Tenets, PWCC and our staff and affiliates have no visibility into any bidders' maximum bid. This information is stored in a third-party service and no one from PWCC or any affiliates of the sellers can view it, by specific design.

All bidders must be approved to participate in the Premier Auction. To apply, submit a brief application with your eBay ID and two references if applicable (it takes less than two minutes). Our team will review your application, contact you within 24 hours if additional information is needed, and notify you of your approval. This process can take several days, so please submit your application early.

What happens when somebody is caught placing a bid they don't intend to honor, known as shill bidding?
Our Marketplace Trust team is extremely proactive in monitoring bidding. We have placed permanent blocks on any bidder who does not pay. Refer to the Marketplace Tenets for more details on our monitoring procedures.

What will happen to my cards once they're pulled from eBay? WilI I get a notification that they have indeed been removed?
All Fixed Price and Flash Auction listings that did not sell and were removed from eBay will automatically be placed back into your Vault. All unsold items in our August Monthly Auction and submissions received for future auctions will be placed in your Vault, free of charge, ready to be sold either in our existing Premier Auction or in our future PWCC-hosted Monthly, Flash, or Fixed-Price Marketplaces which will be available soon.

What can I expect from PWCC in terms of future plans and operations?
We are excited to roll out our own, proprietary Marketplaces specifically designed to meet the unique needs of this market and continue to offer excellent services to our clients.

Can I trust PWCC as a business moving forward?
Absolutely. We know trust is built over time and through a consistent experience. It is our hope that we have earned that trust from you and that we will continue to do so with our new platform. We are deeply committed to ensuring the bidding environment you deserve.

....

I'm in the you can't compete with eBay camp. I don't see why eBay would ban a seller doing business on their platform out of a fear that the seller will overtake eBay. There's no practical way to do that and you'd never touch eBay's overall revenue. I don't see how that could be a real motivating factor. The loss in business is easily absorbed by millions of knick knacks posted every day for the rest of eternity.

what a shock

Long and interesting statement from PWCC.

Very Well Written

The reality they said it the way they said it to cover themselves and try to inspire confidence and trust in them (regardless if it works or not)

The used ebay to build their brand and customer base and now that they are bigger they wanted to build their own web platform do their own auctions and control there way and maximize there profits.

Ebay may have sped up the timeline once they decided enough was enough and they all go their merry ways

Blocking Sellers on Ebay Saved Searches
 

Is there a way to block certin Sellers on eBay while searching for items. I often have saved search terms that look for general categories of cards, but I have not seen a method of blocking certain Sellers if they meet search criteria. Thanks

This was my first thought. The inmates running the asylum. It’s hard to believe that shilling isn’t so ingrained in the culture there they could have a really hard time running a legit AH, even if they wanted to. The few things I ever bought from them years ago were things I just stumbled upon while browsing Ebay. I can’t see myself ever visiting their site and I doubt I’m the only one.

See https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=258966

Anyone who does frequent their site will get exactly what they deserve. I personally will stick with reputable and ethical sources such as LOTG, REA and Hakes.

I believe this sudden sweeping move by eBay was done in an effort to minimize its liability (and culpability) and to distance themselves from PWCC, who is under investigation. Perhaps the FBI had a hand in expediting this drastic action. Based on what we learned from Mastro, it's apparently easier/preferable for Law Enforcement to issue indictments on shill bidding than fraud from card alteration (although I wish they could bring charges for both).

Simply put... Law Enforcement's ability to prove shill bidding (from obtained records) is probably much more cut and dried than proving fraud and criminal intent to deceive.

In just happy I dont have to sort through PWCC auctions anymore to find ones at a real price and dont have insane shipping costs to Canada.

+1 to all. Just the thought of being associated with a federal investigation, even if nothing eventually comes from it, is probably enough for Ebay to punt on the $6 million a year revenue.

Is there a chance this move by eBay on PWCC has any effect at all on Dean's?

Dean's
 

..I thought "Dean's" already had their own Non-Ebay page on the internet ?

..

Guessing, but doubtful that Dean's has anywhere near the overall sales volume of PWCC. And from what I have seen, eBay is just one of their many platforms (they also list many of the exact same cards on Amazon too...) - not their main source of revenue.

Yes, they have their own website - and have for years. I think it could be argued they try to get most of their business through that website, because to my knowledge none of Dean's "discount" (sorry, try not to laugh) algorithms work when you are buying single cards of his on eBay.

Pretty much agree with all of this.

Here's a thought -- PWCC now has more incentive than ever to show high auction prices.

So what'll happen over the next few months to popular heavily traded pre-war cards, let's say T206s in the $500-$5000 range? Predictions?

A) prices rise because eBay buyers stay on eBay and the supply diminishes while the demand remains
B) prices drop because they were artificially inflated by business practices (legitimate or otherwise) of PWCC
C) nothing much as people continue to set their bids based on recent sales
D) other (?)

I'm thinking maybe the prices were so volatile for the past year it'll be hard to discern the specific effect of PWCC's departure from eBay, but it's gotta have some effect whether or not we can discern what it will have been with any confidence.

Ebay has operated out of spite for almost their entire existence. Check out what they did to the ECommerceBytes folks.

They're successful despite their own seemingly constant sabotage, because they have a near monopoly on the type of service they provide...are very protective of it...have constantly instituted various forms of price hikes with very little push back...and do this while having to hold zero inventory of their own.

It's just software, servers, mediocre programmers and poorly paid customer service people. It's the type of overhead most companies would kill for, but a service nobody else can really provide. They really came along at the exact right time, for their type of business.

They don't care about shilling or fraud. If they did they would have announced a few very simple policy decisions along with their PWCC take down. They did not.

Good point. If their prices fall off a cliff on their own site, they’ll have (even more) ‘splaining to do.

I find it interesting that 3 things have converged here…Ebay booting PWCC, PWCC launching their own platform, and an FBI investigation heating up. That’s a potent cocktail with a lot of money and potential legal problems at stake.

What's Rob Gough Thinking Now?
 

At the just-held National I bumped into Rob Gough, who as we all know until very recently was the owner of the most expensive baseball card ever sold when he paid $5.2 million for a PSA 9 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I found him to be pleasant and very cordial and we talked for about 10 minutes.
If you read the July 2021 SI article about this Mantle card, he is featured VERY prominently. Like the first 10 paragraphs. What I found "weird" is that PWCC, who served as the broker in the sale (it wasn't an auction) and whose vault the card now sits in, wasn't mentioned by name. I wonder why.
This article makes it clear that Gough dove in hard last summer and eBay was one of his sources as he spent millions of dollars on cards. Now this news breaks. Does he pull that Mantle from the vault? Where will he go to buy cards in the future? At the National I recommended to him (and real estate mogul Kurt Rappaport, who was with him), that REA is the best but of course REA isn't on eBay. I also told him to stay away from PWCC because of the ongoing (?) trimming scandal. I know, that advice was too late.
Why does it matter what this young man does going forward? I believe the hobby needs fresh, young faces if it is going to continue to grow. I also believe he has had a positive impact on the hobby and what he does now (in terms of buying more cards) matters. Just my opinion. I want the hobby to thrive long after I am dead and gone. Gough can help.
P.S. I did write a blog about my pleasant encounter with Gough and Rappaport. If you want you can read it at www.markearzoumanian.com and then click on "My Love of the Hobby."

To quote Snowman:

"1 - PWCC has been working on their own separate platform to compete against eBay."

Seems to me, they will now be competing against many reputable, trusted, & established online auction houses.

Time will tell, I guess.

PWCC already has their own platform for selling and they've already established themselves as the largest auction house in the business. People will swarm to their site every auction like they always do because collectors be crazy. Regardless of shill bidding or not people will still buy from them in future auctions because they have it all. If you're worried about shill bidding just pick a max number in your head and don't go over it just like any other auction.

I believe eBay was already aware PWCC has intentions of leaving their platform soon as they've already tested having their own auctions. The fees are high and they can do it in-house for less. So they're mad and throwing them under the bus, probably for good reasons but about a decade late. Gee thanks eBay for trying to portray being the golden child here, you haven't been a partner in crime the whole time at all...bye ebay, you won't be missed. It's not that hard to run this business. Oh Hello Sirius and your weekly auctions!

I've bought from PWCC many times just like the next collector and will continue to do so because they have what I'm looking for. Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection.

Examine your cards carefully when you get them regardless of who you're buying from. PWCC or elsewhere, it's your money, you better know what you're getting.

Just a guess, but PWCC will lose a large portion of their consignments because they are no longer on Ebay.

This is wonderful news! I am so glad that PWCC is leaving eBay! I got sick and tired of looking at those f**king ridiculous Vault prices every single day!

Now, turn this shit up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gwj...AndTheGangVEVO

And, if they show low prices, the reason to consign to them goes away.

Can the house bid on their own items in Oregon? Isn't that why several are located in Texas so they can?

Good luck....
 

Good luck. Solid strategy.....lmao. Yeah, those big auction house auctions really have nothing in them for anyone it appears....:D. Why even subscribe if you feel that way? :eek:

Peace, Mike Papariello

PS Honestly....when you say this "Meanwhile I end up recycling dozens of catalogs every year from all the auction houses that don't have anything to add to my collection."
then people kinda just stop listening to you. Just sayin'

lol REA isn't pussyfooting around. From an email I just received:

I think it's human nature to think "hey, those guys probably shill their own auctions and pass things off better than they really are . . . . and that's terrible . . . .but I'm pretty sure that's never been the case with anything I've bought. . . ."

What about their long time consigners ??? What about us? Shouldn’t we get this rate too? Maybe they don’t want my consignments anymore.

That's freaking great LOL.

I'd have trouble sleeping tonight if I had a $100,000 card in a vault in Oregon. Just sayin.

Do you believe this incentive would outweigh the competing incentive to avoid shill bidding to whatever extent possible since they are/were under an FBI investigation with a sizeable portion of the community constantly breathing fire down their backs, waiting to catch them for any and every misstep?

To me it seems incomprehensible that PWCC themselves would be actively engaged in any shill bidding activity at any point since the FBI came knocking on their doors. Yes, of course random ebay users and their consignors engage in this activity all the time, but this isn't PWCC's problem to solve. It's ebay's responsibility. I just don't buy for one second that PWCC employees or its owners are actively shill bidding on their auctions. Same with Probstein and other consignment companies. Their consignors shill bid constantly, but that doesn't make them guilty of it too.

Perhaps worth discussing as well though is what defines "shill bidding" to begin with? Is it shill bidding if you have every intention of paying for the item and all the fees that go along with it should you win? PWCC doesn't consider that to be shill bidding, and neither do many/most? other auction houses.

I've a ways to go before I'm that type of collector. But agreed.

I seriously doubt the FBI is showing anyone any evidence in an ongoing investigation.

See the screen shot in post 197. I encourage you to find and read the whole thread whence it came.

So, eBay just decided this is a bad business association?

How so? Why would this not be the expectation given that fewer buyers would be seeing these auctions now?

The FBI investigation is "heating up"? I was unaware of this. Do you have any evidence to support this claim or is this purely conjecture based on the fact that ebay claims to have cut ties with PWCC over "shill bidding"?

Trust us moving forward? You can even trust us in reverse!

https://3063k83tcl6g2jumas3i5qc8-wpe...0-c-center.jpg

There is no scenario where the FBI came to ebay with "the evidence" they have against PWCC in an ongoing criminal investigation. The most they would have done was subpoena specific documents or transaction records. Ebay might try to infer from there whatever they want, but the FBI isn't showing them any evidence whatsoever.

Ebay could have made the decision to cut ties with PWCC for a multitude of reasons. The best we can do is speculate and use our critical thinking skills to try to narrow down which of those reasons are the most likely.

I wonder How many people have called to get their cards out of the Pwcc vault?

Optics Look Bad for them very bad…don’t know how well they’re gonna compete with Other Major AH’s that have their own stand alone platforms.

Seems to me as though PWCC would have a very strong lawsuit on their hands if ebay in fact does not have proof of PWCC employees shill bidding in their own auctions. If the shill bidders are in fact just consignors or other random eBay accounts, then their accusations are textbook defamatory resulting in real damages to PWCC's bottom line. If this is the case, I expect we will see eBay having to pay PWCC a substantial sum of money in the inevitable lawsuit on the horizon.

However, on the other hand, if eBay can prove that PWCC employees or its ownership are in fact actively shill bidding on their auctions, then PWCC is likely in for some extreme turbulence ahead. Although if this were the case, I have to ask, why wouldn't they just state that in the email rather than using the cryptic "individuals associated with PWCC" engaged in shill bidding? It just doesn't make sense. To me this smells like eBay deliberately trying to tarnish the brand of their newest competitor.

I have been expecting the bubble to pop for a while now, but was starting to think it might have just been wishful thinking since I have been effectively priced out of the market for Roberto Clemente and Nolan Ryan rookie cards for a while now. However this quote above from PWCC renews my faith that, at some point soon, the part of the hobby pool that I swim in will come back to me.

For sure, there's a run on the vault right now. They're definitely panicking.

Their success or failure will all be determined by how smoothly their upcoming weekly auctions run on their own platform. I'm guessing it'll be slow at first but that the hammer prices will still be strong for the vast majority of items. And if their rates are friendly enough to consignors, then they could easily steal a TON of business from ebay. Sellers just want top dollar for their items, reasonable fees, and relatively quick turnaround times. The market as a whole doesn't care about all this drama. They will overlook it in a second if PWCC provides a better selling experience in the end. If PWCC yours to get greedy though, charging something like 11% to compete against ebay's 12%, then they might jump the shark. But if they play it smart, assuming they're not actually guilty of ebay's shill bidding claims, then I think they'll come out ahead. Time will tell. Stay tuned...

Hey Jeff,
I have a Ryan Rookie I'll make you a deal on, It's in the Swingin' 60's submission so it may be a few months before it comes back.