Well if you're just going to pretend that pitchers back then were throwing little league or pee wee speeds after "wearing out" over 9 innings (if that were true, why didn't Cobb or Jackson or Ruth hit .500 or higher?), and just ignore what the players themselves said about pitching, and think everything is so much better today, and that Tommy John surgery isn't rampant today after pitching less than 6 innings a game or less than 200 innings a year, then go ahead and say whatever. You say the pitching today is so much above that era that it's like us over the amoeba, so obviously it must be. You have all the etched in stone, irrefutable metrics.

Always think this is interesting watch whenever these discussions come up.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epst...ronger/up-next

How is it that Chapman of the Indians was killed by a little league ball? Oh yes, he wasn't wearing his full head, full face crash helmet, and ballplayers heads just weren't as thick as heads today.

I looked at Cobb's splits for his career:

1st at Bat against SP: 340 overall
3rd at bat against SP: 351 overall

Better the 3rd time around but not giving me the impression the guy in the first inning was all that different from the guy in the 9th. That may play to what you're saying, or it may suggest that pitchers were more durable when they were throwing more innings.

Cobb, Jackson etc. didn't hit 500 because they too were products of the same era in terms of athletic evolution. The abilities of pitchers relative to batters is probably relatively constant over time, and when it gets disproportionate you see subtle changes like mound height or fence adjustments to keep it balanced.

How did pitchers throw so many innings year in and year out without breaking down. Oh yes, they were throwing baseballs like slow pitch softballs. That must be it.

If two of his at bats "only" worked out to .350, where did the .367 come from? Was he hitting .400 after the 3rd at bat?

Speculating, but maybe pitchers then threw fewer breaking balls, which put more strain on the arm?

Haha actually he was. It says he hit 406 if he faced the SP 4 times or more.

I got mixed up too. The third time SP average says 351. He hit 360 when he faced the RP 3 times or more.

Baseball reference has some incredible information on it.

A good if small anecdote supporting the use of relief pitchers, perhaps. I wonder if it's more due to the pitcher tiring, the batter adjusting to the pitcher's stuff, or both.

So pitchers in 1910 were bigger, stronger, more durable than pitchers today? Or maybe they just didn't exert themselves as much and pout as much strain on their arms. And were players back then stronger than today's players? How did they get those 48 oz bats around on 100 mph fast balls when many of them were 5'7, 165 pounds?

The one constant amongst fans of all sports will be the endless arguments and comparisons between players of different eras. They are fascinating as well as impossible to resolve (until someone invents a time machine).

As far as my take, the Babe will never be surpassed as the best ever not only because of his performance against his peers but also his unprecedented celebrity at the time. Truly one of a kind.

That being said, if I had to wager my house on which player would fare better in a matchup against a modern day pitcher (let's say, DeGrom) and I could pick from Babe Ruth in his prime and Ohtani this year, I would take Ohtani. Not because Ohtani will ever become the legend that Ruth did, but because I think it's basically a fact that for various reasons today's athletes are superior to athletes of 100 years ago. There's a reason that world records get set almost every year in track and field.

As for the eye test, unfortunately, we aren't able to watch Ruth play in person. But I decided to take my daughters over to the Home Run Derby earlier this month (I live in Kansas City so it's only about 10 hours-ish). We were there mostly to watch Salvador Perez, but as a bonus I got to see Ohtani. He was CLEARLY the biggest draw there. Yes, hometown favorite Trevor Story got a lot of cheers, but EVERYBODY was watching Ohtani's every move...in interviews, batting practice, etc. There was even a contingent of Japanese fans that sort of just migrated around the stands during warmups trying to stay as close to him as possible.

And while his actual performance in the derby was pretty strong, his most impressive hit of the night was his final at bat in batting practice. It was "only" measured around 505 feet, but it bounced off the facing of the FOURTH deck at Coors field. If that fourth deck wasn't in the way, who knows where that ball would have landed. The entire place was buzzing...after a batting practice ball!

All this to say is that Ohtani is definitely something special right now. No, not Babe Ruth, but if you're not watching him, you are missing out.

A couple pics I took that day:

Stood behind the dugout during warmups and got a pic of Ohtani with his interpreter being interviewed by Harold Reynolds:

Attachment 472193


Here's a wide shot of Coors field during warm ups and the very tip of the red arrow is where Ohtani hit that batting practice ball:

Attachment 472194

I could hit a home run with a whiffle bat at Coors Field

I have read that the original video footage still exists and that it is good enough for us to validate those 500+ foot home runs Ruth hit.

That certainly settles things then, hahahaha.

I would love to see video footage of Babe Ruth hitting 500+ foot home runs in every AL park in 1921 and look forward to any links or other information as to how one can view this footage.

I think this is the book being referenced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ye..._104_Home_Runs

The book is written by a guy associated with SABR.

Home runs in 1921 and 2021 are completely different animals. In 1921 Babe Ruth hit 59 home runs, Bob Meusel and Ken Williams were tied for 2nd with 24.

Thats dominance.

Okay, I guess I'll stop now. I don't have the book or know the methodology used, but if this is correct, it appears that Babe Ruth was able to hit multiple home runs longer than people can hit today, even with lob pitching in Coors field.

I still feel a little skeptical that someone was able to "list every home run hit by Ruth during his career, along with estimated distances that the ball flew in each case" without relying on possibly unreliable witnesses. I don't think the newspapers of 1918 were giving the exact details of every Ruth home run and I am pretty sure no one was filming every game he played. I know if someone showed me a tree off in the distance and asked me how far away it was I would be lucky to come within 100 feet with my guess.

But, again, I can't say the book is inaccurate.

By the way, I am also a member of SABR, although I have not written any books, and I will now go back to the threads where I post cards.:).

And I am sorry to say, this is my only Ruth card (or 1/4 of a Ruth card).

Let's Stop over thinking it and let's enjoy both the past and the present.

Let's Get Back to Cards.

Let's Share cards of these Great Players

and that my friends.......is thee post of the thread!


and now it's over.

Tina says "What's 1921 got to do with it?"

In 1921 Ruth's ERA was 9.00 in 9 innings of pitching.

maybe you'll like this one better then:

In 1919 Ruth lead in 8 offensive batting stats:

HR, RBI, Runs, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, Total Bases


Ohtani in 2021 leads in 2:

HR & Slugging



8-2 aint exactly a close game Doc

Bob Meusel was no Vlad Jr.

And some of those categories are sort of overlapping, no?

I don't listen to anyone who thinks Mike Trout can start a lawnmower.

There's a box of rocks underneath that Angel's cap.

I am telling you he mastered it in 8th grade.

Ruth didn't have to compete with Gibson, Suttles, Charleston, etc.

Ohtani has to compete with Guerrero, Tatis, Abreu, etc

Ohtani also leads in WAR.

If you don't think that the best players of color would not have diluted Ruth's dominance, I can't help you.

Once again, 100 years is a long time, different eras.

The numbers do not change the fact that 1919 Ruth is the most similar season to 2021 Ohtani in what the two players were doing on the field every day. If you disagree, perhaps you need to see an ophthalmologist.

The premise of the thread stands. Ruth is great. Ohtani may be. When another pitcher/hitter comes along, we can compare him to both Ruth and Ohtani, but that may not happen for another 102 years, which once again would be a different era.

See you then.:eek:

Ta Ta

and if you really want to go there Peter......fine....here's some more if 8-2 wasn't bad enough......

1919

Ruth at the plate
Walks 101
K's 58


2021

Ohtani at the dish
Walks 50
K's 130

That's cause he's facing much FASTER and better pitching LOLOL. It was hard to fan the Babe with a 82 MPH heater. Even the lawnmower man strikes out a lot when he's otherwise obliterating records.

Unless you have a Youtube video of this occurring (I'll accept a cellphone video as well) or a note from one of his neighbors I'm not convinced.

How about a photoshopped image?

Doc Holiday,

The cry of Ruth didn't play against the best is just that.....a cry


Here's a few guys that played when Ruth played:

Honus Wagner
Ty Cobb
Christy Mathewson
Walter Johnson
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Lou Gehrig
Tris Speaker
Pie Traynor
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Nap Lajoie
George Sisler
Rogers Hornsby
Jimmie Foxx
Al Simmons
Lefty Grove
Dizzy Dean
Ed Walsh
Eddie Collins
Eddie Plank
Eddie Cicotte
Eddie Olczyk
Eddie Munster
Carl Hubbell
Frankie Frisch
Mickey Cochrane
Rabbit Maranville
Paul Waner
Lloyd Waner
Mel Ott
&
Hank Greenberg

and I'm sure I'm missing a few, but sure sounds like he played against the best to me.

It'll have to due at this point because there ain't no other one out there.

If you don’t think this thread’s premise is valid, why not use your your creativity to start a thread you can understand. If not, just have another beverage, cheers.

An interesting premise. So "the best" excludes every black player. Alrighty then.

Now I would really pay some serious cash to watch that - There would be threads for years to come on Net54 regarding the "Guy that hit a home Run in Coors field with a Whiffle Ball bat" :)

Anyway - Ive read all 4 pages of this thread hoping to see any opinions on "What is this guy's Best RC". There appear to be only a few thousand different options available out there.

So not to hijack the lively discussion on Ruth vs Ohtani but does anyone have any opinions on that?

If you were going to pick up a couple of Ohtani RCs - What would they be?

I Love the passion in these forums. I Love the use of stats and comparing the similarities and the differences in the times. Even love the discussions on the different training methodologies and the ways we use stats to try and the rest of the league like when someone mention Ruth had more home runs in 1 season then the next closest 2 hitters combined.

Keep it coming.

And your premise is "what if" instead of "what was".

Did you want Ruth to change the mindset of the United States back then, I'm not quite sure he had the power to allow Black players to play in the MLB, that would have been the commissioner and others job?

Ruth's job was playing baseball. And Ruth played against the BEST that was playing.

If the Germans had a better game plan they would have won WWII right?

If someone else drafted Tom Brady then blah blah blah.

You can only play against who is playing. Maybe if Russell Wilson, Jamies Winston, John Elway, and many other chose baseball instead of football the talent level would be slightly better in baseball. So maybe THEE best arn't all in, just like back then.

Today 7% of MLBers are BLACK. Don't give me this Japan, Dominican, etc BS either, because they were not playing in the US back then regardless. More what if's. And that 7% is for 30 teams, so cut that in half like the number of teams and that's 3.5% Black players would play back then. I don't think that would alter the numbers/stats all that much.

Maybe if there were still 16 teams like in 1919 instead of 30 now the talent pool wouldn't be so diluted today, and we'd be watching super teams instead of watching the garbage Texas Rangers and Baltimore Orioles.

And would Ohtani even be pitching if there were only 16 teams, maybe maybe not, more what if's.

Go by what happened and what is happening, and what will happen.

Germans lost WWII

Babe Ruth was the greatest player of all time.

FACTS

For modern cards I would buy, depending on which you like best, the base of the first Topps or Topps Chrome card, or the base Heritage card. I avoid all the other million issues.

I agree with you completely, but you can't get through to these guys, no matter what you come up with or say. They are loaded with today's facts and stats. They've had big drinks of the sacred Kool-Aid. Today's ballplayers are just so much better, never mind Jacoby Ellsberry and Giancarlo "don't call me Mike" Stanton, neither of which can get over their hangnails, but can sure draw a big paycheck. Obviously MLB was Wiffel Ball back when Ruth played. Walter "The Big Train" Johnson was really throwing slow-pitch softballs. All other pitchers were tossing even slower, maybe even placing T-balls. Ray Chapman didn't die from being hit in the head from one of those balls of fluff, he died of fright.

Breaking News
 

The Allied forces secret weapon leading to victory at The Battle of the Bulge was none other than Babe Ruth.

Now you know the rest of the story.

And after that Babe Ruth walked on water from Pearl Harbor to Iwo Jima.;)

I agree, I stick with Topps and Topps Chrome. Some Heritage. I will buy other Topps products for autographs, though. I really like the Clearly Authentic stuff this year.

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Thanks Paul Harvey. Thumbs up emoji.

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I guess it was recently the anniversary of when Nolan Ryan showed Robin Ventura that yesterday's stars are stronger than the young guns think. My 8yo son sure enjoyed the video. I think that's symbolic of this argument about Ohtani and Ruth.

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No one ever said any of this... drama queen much?

No one ever said pitchers were lobbing softballs up to the plate or throwing Little League speed... unless you know Little Leaguers throwing 85 mph... sign 'em up!

But Johnson's pitches were recorded and measured at 89 mph. And you can certainly die from being hit in the head by an 85 mph fastball. Why is it so hard for you to accept that pitchers in 1900-1920 weren't throwing 95-100 mph gas all game long? You still haven't explained to any of us how these guys were piling up 300-400 innings year after year, pitching complete games every third day all season long? Throwing 95-100 all game and not breaking down? And, for the most part, they were smaller than men of today and not as well trained. Uh huh... here's a clue: they played in the Dead Ball Era. The ball didn't carry... so they didn't have to throw as hard. Players used much heavier bats to just get the bat on the ball, easier when it was being thrown 80-85. Walter Johnson only struck out 5 in every 9 innings... and when the live ball era started in the 1920s, pitchers had to throw harder more often and as a result, innings pitched came down and batters went to lighter bats so they could get around on pitches. Which part of this is illogical to you?

And the OP simply stated that Ohtani was doing something that hadn't been done since Ruth in 1919... pitching in the regular rotation and playing and hitting in games where he wasn't pitching. Which is true. No one ever said that Ohtani was or will be a better player than Ruth, or that his 2021 season is better than Ruth's. Just that he is doing something we haven't seen in 100+ years. I don't know how people have misinterpreted what Frank originally wrote so badly.

Maybe, Rich, it's because to justify spending so much money on vintage cards people have to believe the players from the pre-war days not only were better in relative terms, but were better in absolute terms. Maybe that explains the bias I referred to in an early post? It's certainly a misplaced romantic notion that baseball somehow is exempt from the same trends we see in other sports. Or that players back then somehow had superior character. Etc.

Relative to his times, Ruth clearly is the best player ever, and likely always will be. But that doesn't seem to be enough to appease the mob.

Farmers in the Hall of Fame?
 

Thought this belongs in this thread

Added without comment




https://www.foxnews.com/sports/shohe...than-babe-ruth

My comment is David Justice is correct about Babe Ruth for the most part. Ohtani is having the greatest year in baseball history. :eek::D:D:D

Frank - I want one!

BTW - I got underwear older than this kid..... TMI?

He's hitting .270. Presented without comment.

also presented without comment -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/31348924382...4AAOSwvRBgd9UL

Nice investment flip
 

A investor/collector I know bought a Ohtani certified autographed card pulled out of pack numbered to 99 for $150.00 two years ago, sold it last week for $3,000--

If you are suggesting a trade, I'll respectfully pass.

Other than the subtle shot at Ruth for only winning 1 MVP*, I don't have much fault with the article. I don't necessarily agree with Justice's conclusion but he's not wrong about the differences in competition**.

* - Since they were only allowed to win 1 back then

** - Ohtani isn't facing Mariano River or Randy Johnson either.

I laughed a little too hard at this. Well done.

Agreed the article has some valid points but the bottom line is
Ruth is great and is an icon
Ohtani is have a great year. And lets see what he can do with his career

Lets enjoy the Past, present , and future

I agree. Ohtani is 26 and hasn't played a truly full season in the majors yet and only parts of 3 others besides this one. We're basically comparing Ohtani to full-career Ruth when we should be comparing him to Ruth up through 1917 or 1918.

In terms of how they were used 1919 is the closest match to 2021.

Once agan I was never comparing Ohtani’s career to Babe’s career.

I’m not that dumb.

I have been following Ohtani pretty closely all year. He is an unbelievable talent. I am fascinated at his ability to Pitch so well and Hit so good. It will take a long time for him to be Babe Ruth, who is the best player of all time. Not sure in this day and age a player can do it. He has brought excitement back to me in baseball. I wish him the best.