Thanks for uncovering all these secrets!

So what do you make of what's happening in India, Dale? Fearmongering by MSM maybe?

I find it interesting how the same people who question whether the virus caused various adverse outcomes seem to accept uncritically that the VACCINE caused all adverse outcomes reported after receiving it. Inconsistent? I would say so. I guess it depends on your agenda.

By the way, there have been some inquiries that concluded that some of the immediate adverse events reported after the vaccine were, in fact, the symptoms of panic attacks. Knowing what panic attacks can do, that doesn't surprise me.

Who actually knows what is really happening over there, Peter, and where in any of my posts am I denying covid exists?
I'm not sure how you've missed it, but the majority of what I have been trying to say is I don't think these vaccines are working as well as what we are being lead to believe.


Back to India. Wasn't it just a month or 2 ago, they, MSM, were reporting cases were plummeting rapidly?
If you can tell me which story is truthful, factual and correct, I am all ears because I honestly don't know what to believe anymore coming from MSM.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...covid-19-cases
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...785_story.html
https://www.pharmaceutical-technolog...india-unclear/
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/24/asia/...cli/index.html

Who led you to believe they were going to be completely effective? You bring up some reports of post-vaccine illnesses and deaths and think you've revealed the emperor's not wearing clothes, you're attacking a straw man, nobody made any such claims.

By the way my point is not that people deny the existence of the disease, but rather that at the same time they question the deaths attributed to it while accepting without question that any post-vaccine adverse event is causally related.

And the situation in India changed, because the government was premature in its assessment that it had largely contained the virus, and it let down its guard. The triumph of politics and agenda over science. If we were allowed to discuss politics I might say, gee that sounds familiar.

You're kidding me, right?
With the over the top push to get vaccines, who wouldn't believe they would work and one would be actually protected?

People, right now, currently, believe that. They believe that having one shot protects them by at least 80% and their chances of getting covid are practically nil.
Not one I bet, until recently, actually thought they could die.
Where did they warn us about possible severe side affects and possible death from getting the vaccine? I guess I was sleeping during that announcement?

Right now some states are offering money and other incentives trying to get people vaccinated. Why is that? Are people just now hearing about these deaths and side affects or do you think they knew all along that getting the vaccine could still land them in the hospital and possibly kill them?

CDC website.

•Some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because no vaccine is 100% effective. Experts continue to monitor and evaluate how often this occurs, how severe their illness is, and how likely a vaccinated person is to spread COVID-19 to others.

The efficacy rates were very clear in everything I read. So were the warnings.

And just a bit ago you told me there were other sources other than the CDC?

Like I have said, numerous times now, not a peep about any of this nor the other doctors/medical professionals who oppose the vaccine on MSM.

Why do I feel like I am going in circles here? :confused:

Pretty sure it was you that mentioned that the covid survival rate was over 97% as a way of saying we don't all need the vaccine. If not you, someone did.
Let's assume the number of people who have died after getting the vaccine actually died from the vaccine. Could you please present the survival rate for people getting the vaccine? Just wondering how they compare.

Thanks, Ken

One of YOUR links was to CBS News no? A couple of others to major publications. How are you defining MSM?

There are lots of sources. I am just pointing out that not even the dreaded CDC said it was 100 percent effective.

Don't think I've ever read an article about the vaccines without them noting the efficacy rates, and it's never been 100. Seems pretty clear??

Seems Dale is knocking over a straw man. Time honored technique.

I am unsure what is aired on your T.V. news down there but ours up here has never, until recently, talked about any of the things we are currently talking about.
Sure, there are articles that exist here and there, (and most just recently), if one searches for them but most people don't anymore, they rely on the evening news only.

We have a 24/7 news site and their agenda for the past long while has been promoting vaccines and where to get them.
Rarely, until recently, have they started talking about any of these side affects and deaths.
From the beginning, it was get vaccinated, get vaccinated as soon as you can with any type/kind as having one is certainly better than not having any!!!
Fear mongering/panic inducing at its best making people believe if they don't get one they are going to die!

I haven't seen your news so I can't comment on it but as a general proposition yes news should be balanced.

27,035,524
Cases which had an outcome:
26,439,712 (98%)
Recovered / Discharged

595,812 (2%)
Deaths

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Just as a side note, and sorry if it pisses people off, it's unfortunate there isn't the same political will to take on smoking as there is to take on the coronavirus.

"Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure."

Source is CDC.

Dale I don't get your end game regarding the vaccine. Do you want no one to get it? or you are saying it's pointless.......or it's more harmful then Covid?

I have not gotten it, but may, may not.......just waiting to see how more of this plays out.

I know you are a Trumper, no problem there, and he was the one, his regime anyhow, who got the vaccine done so quickly. But I think it wasn't done recklessly to just have a vaccine. I think it was an "all hands on deck" let's figure this out working 24/7. Whereas when people say a vaccine normally takes years, that may be true, but that's because not nearly the amount of resources were put in to get this one done so quickly.

So yah you are gonna break a few eggs as we have seen, but you could get that with anything.

But back to one of my points, Trump got this done. He gets the credit not Biden in my eyes. Joe got a vaccine, basically 5-run lead going to the 9th and he just had to close out the game. So he's done that. He gets his credit as well, and to be honest it's neither of the Presidents getting this done, it's the scientists and these big companies.

So like Frank Costanza I lost my train of thought.......carry on.

I'll drink to that. But can you ban cigarette's? Basically that'd be the only way to get that done, which I'm for, but it would be like weed, you'd open a new market of black market cigarettes, basically doing a weed for smokes flip flop.

Complicated subject. A few random thoughts.

One, it just bothers me to see all these politicians urging people to do all this stuff to mitigate the impact of the virus (most of which I agree with by the way) while being terrified of and in many cases supported by the tobacco lobby and not ever speaking up about the dangers of smoking. Maybe it's apples to oranges but something doesn't sit well.

Two, there are things we could do short of banning cigarettes, I think. Better education about the dangers (I mean, you don't hear a word about it ever any more, but you hear 24 7 about the coronavirus). Better measures to protect children against second hand smoke in the home. More help to people trying to quit.

Trump, to be fair though, undercut his very strong push for a vaccine for which I give him credit by his inconsistent messaging about the virus and its impact, masks, and so forth.

In a way you are bascially asking to cure stupid. And no team of scientists is preventing that.

As far as smoking goes, they've raised the prices so high that if you want to smoke you're basically gonna go broke, or pay an arm. They raised the age to buy them to 18, so it's not like you are selling to "kids". I know middle schools and high schools have signs up regarding smoking and vaping and the harms of it. You got commercials with goons with no jaws and pulling their teeth out. You basically are being told this WILL happen to you, you will get lung cancer, you will get emphazima (sp), you will die!

If after all that, people still want to smoke, go back to my first sentence or 2.

Thanks, now how about the number of deaths after getting the vaccine? Think it approaches 2%? That was my question for you.

I'm getting my 2nd Moderna shot Friday. Why? Because I care. Even though I'm healthy and have a great immune system and probably don't need it, but I care about the old and infirm, I care about my tribe, my community and my country. I'd never forgive myself if I gave it to someone and they died.

This is my first pandemic so I'll err on the side of caution and go slowly with my reintroduction to normalcy. I've known 3 people who died of Covid and had a colleague lose 7 nurses who died in the shitshow that was NYC. So if I need to do my part to get us to herd immunity so folks will stop dying, sign me up.

Besides, in my wayward youth I've ingested random drugs off a dirty barroom floor with some bar slut and went home with her to have unprotected sex, not knowing who manufactured the drugs or the bar sluts name. Just sayin'...

I think I'll be okay with a little Covid shot.

I'm just trying to help people make a more educated decision, that is all.

Just this weekend my wife visited her sister at her lakeside home. She received the shot a week or 2 ago and based on what she told my wife, she thought she was fully protected/immune from ever getting covid.
She rarely, if ever watches the news or reads newspapers and the biggest reason she moved to where she is, is to get away from it all.
I have no idea what made her or who told her to get the shot, but, just as one example, here is someone who obviously didn't look into things further before getting it.
My wife said the look on her face was shear shock when she told her that she would likely need a booster in another 6 months as that is what they are saying, that these vaccines are only good for 6 months or so.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/pfiz...12-months.html

It's all about the money, Peter, and nothing else. If they seriously wanted to ban smoking they would, but you can bet your you no what that they'd tax something else to make up the shortfall.

Like I said before, many are also getting filthy rich off this covid vaccine rollout, but that is another story altogether.

Anyone notice the graph in the link above I posted above how the case numbers, pre election, went through the roof but right after, when they lowered the PCR testing threshold number and began testing far less people, that the covid case numbers plummeted? Anyone notice that right after the election that CNN quit showing the covid case numbers and deaths in their ticker tape?
Things that make you go Hmm. :rolleyes:

If I could answer it or find you the answer I would but you will have to scroll back up to the post/link I provided earlier where they say they are tracking that number but for some reason are currently being secretive with it.

Peter even mentioned in his thread, maybe there is a reason for that but I guess you missed both?

Not for me. I’m sure nothing’s wrong with it, but if I have a better chance of getting in a car crash and dying going to or from work, I’ll take my chances.


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I'm just wondering what some of you would do if you did get COVID. Would your principles exclude you from accepting any treatment for something that either isn't as bad as they say or only kills 2% of the people who get it?

I took the J&J early on -- no issues. Look forward to getting back to my two favorite retirement activities -- playing poker and shooting pool.

I can't speak for everyone that declines the vaccine, but I think most of us are not antivaxxers. We're just not convinced that enough research and testing has gone into the vaccine to inject ourselves with it. I'm grateful for the previous administration's decision to start working on a vaccine immediately without delay (in January of last year), but it's just way too soon. It hasn't even been approved by the FDA yet. If within a couple of years or so it's determined there are no long term side effects, I'll probably get it myself.

That is a thoughtful answer and I appreciate it but I'm not really talking about the vaccine. I guess what I mean is there is a lot of trivializing in this thread. People on the board have made it known they've lost people to the virus. Suggesting it isn't a big deal or only kills X people may be trivializing that loss.

You mean take in fluids, maintain good hygiene and bedrest?
cant' Imagine anyone would say NO to that!

Again, you're sort of trivializing what people go through. I doubt anyone who's sat around a family member on a ventilator thought it was a joke.

Ahh, got it. Not minimalizing those deaths, but let's be honest. Admittedly, all those that I've read about on this board had underlying health conditions. Those folks would have probably had the same fate had they had a severe bout of the flu. Again, just being honest.

Edited to add: For someone in otherwise good health, the survival rate is an important factor.

Positive. Slayer is about as evil as a church-going grandmother, but with less musical talent.

No just the 98% . Majority rules, last time I checked.


And for the record my dad died of 'something possibly sars related" years before covid existed. They just weren't testing for it then. Same exact symptoms, diabetic. 64 years young. I believe in fate, sure it sucks, but you can't cheat death.

I don't know what that means. People often seek medical care to prevent death. Why do hospitals exist if fate is fate?

Now you are trivializing medical care. Fear is fear too I guess, just depends on the threshold of each person. Might as well head to the emergency room for a band aid

You could explain what you meant if you chose to.

+1

I think if anything I'm trivializing fate.

Ten years from now, you'll be hearing commercials that say, "If you took the Covid vaccine from 2020 to 2021, you may be entitled to cash compensation." :D

Exactly.
I have not and my wife has not.
We will not.

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More likely we will see wrongful death claims based on some tortured theory that it is someone else's fault the decedent DIDN'T get the vaccine.

No


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Because they are approved for "emergency use only" is suing/compensation even a possibility?

Why emergency COVID-vaccine approvals pose a dilemma for scientists
Immunizations are speeding towards approval before clinical trials end, but scientists say this could complicate efforts to study long-term effects.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03219-y

:confused:

Do the people who have hesitancy about the vaccines and want more research avoid GMO foods? Curious.

I absolutely avoid GMO foods.

It looks like the new future, at least for a while, is get a COVID test every time you'd like to go to an event, even outside, although I don't plan visiting an outdoor Singapore construction site. Or produce a completed vaccine record.

Eventually, unless YOU want to be the one hiding inside from a virus that may not be the least bit lethal to your demographic, or to the majority of healthy people under 55, you have to get your Fauci Ouchie.

The minority finally won! I guess you can always tip your hat to "saving lives".

I'll let those have need it, have anxiety over not getting it, or feel the need to brag how "they got theirs", line up first, then I'll get mine. I'm just that kind of guy, selfless, maybe to a fault.




So you don't eat corn?



https://i.imgflip.com/12h0jb.jpg

The problem is each group thinks you're talking about the other...

At least they both would be right. ;)

But they'd never agree on it!

I eat organic corn when bought from the store, and in the summer I buy from organic local farmers.

I am guessing that most of us ingest all sorts of stuff every day that hasn't really been studied extensively for long term safety. And may never be.

I wonder how many regular smokers are skeptical of the vaccine's safety?

I'm just curious why creeping doubt about remote side effects only comes into consciousness about this particular vaccine. I have no doubt that there are a bunch of members who take all kinds of prescription medication with all kinds of warnings on the bottles about the remote possibilities of side effects. Why does a remote chance of a negative reaction only bother you vis a vis the vaccine?

You better not be knocking my chili dog addiction!

Maybe because it's a political position justified by a sounds-good mantra divorced from the science?

As to those who raise the straw man of final FDA approval, consider fen-phen. Among other drugs later withdrawn from the market.

In some cases not so remote, my friend. There are many thousands of people effed up by using drugs as prescribed. Nothing is perfectly safe, probably not even a Diet Coke.

How much "long term safety" data, by the way, do people think the FDA has when they APPROVE a drug? Not necessarily that much.

Now that might be worth the risk.

It's not necessarily the vaccine itself, but the fact that we were lied to from the very beginning over the whole Covid situation.

I agree! "In two weeks this will all fade away" did a lot of harm to the debate

We're talking about getting the vaccine. My question is about the vaccine itself not any kind of politics or personal feelings about the pandemic.

In fairness, the sky is falling world is ending coverage of some of the media wasn't that helpful either.

Totally agree.

It went from "two weeks to flatten the curve" to "I'll need to see your vaccine card before you can...(fill in the blank)" all within one year.

But I was referring more to the constant flip flop regarding effectiveness of masks, whether the disease could be transmitted via contaminated surfaces, even to the fact that the WHO came out and initially said there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Also the inconsistency in testing. When a goat and a pawpaw test positive for Covid and one doesn't question that, then they are indeed brainwashed.

And not to get political, but even statements from NY political leaders:

"This disease, even if you were to get it, basically acts like a common cold or flu. And transmission is not that easy." - NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio - February 10th 2020

"We know that there is currently no indication that it's easy to transmit by casual contact. There's no need to do any special anything in the community. We want New Yorkers to go about their daily lives - ride the subway, take the bus, go see your neighbors." - NYC Health Commissioner Dr. Oxiris Barbot, MD - March 2, 2020

“There's really no need to panic and avoid activities that we always do as New Yorkers.” - I don’t know who this moron is, but he obviously has some kind of leadership position. - February 2, 2020

I could go on and on. But surely some can see why one would question the vaccine given so much misinformation.

So here is a thought. Everyone now has the opportunity to get the vaccine if they want it.
Why not? Everything should be opened 100%. Those that didn't get the vaccine are happy, we that did are happy...it's a happy place. :) Since my 2nd shot a few weeks ago I find myself wearing my mask less but still wear it every day to most places. Again, to each their own.

My daughter the stats major isn't getting one yet either even though I have told her my thoughts and I think she should.

In response to David, right above. This is a fluid situation and the ebbs and flows of the pandemic are expected. I am NOT a doomsayer but just go by the overwhelming science of it. I also think, at this point, everyone should get to do what they want. :)
.

But if you had this same skepticism about all medication there wouldn't be any medication to take. Why is the vaccine different?

Many people said many stupid things along the way, but overall the arc has been one of learning as we go from experience, not a vast conspiracy, I think.

Because it's new. I've said (and others have said too) once it's been around for a while and it's been determined there are no long term side effects, I'll more than likely get it.

Very first time an RNA vaccine is brought to market is for this virulent form of the common cold. Very first large scale human phase III "trial". Mrna should revolutionize medicine, I hope it does. No denying its virulent, no denying it's a form of the common cold.


Why do we call the old yearly vaccine choice a flu "shot" when it is a vaccine? Kind of confusing compared to other vaccines, the ones we dont ask side effects of, polio, measles, etc we get once and are immune for life. Will this one work the same?


I cant remember anyone being singled out as an anti-vaxxer for not opting for a flu shot

Has that determination been made for any approved drug, or GMOs, or artificial sweeteners or preservatives, or household cleaning products you probably inhale when using?

I'm not having those shoved down my throat, or being bombarded with commercials with celebrities and politicians telling me how safe those are and why I should consume them.

Let's turn it around. Have you ever in your lifetime seen so much persuasiveness to take a vaccine? I'll be 50 next month (and I think you're a little older than I am) and I've never seen anything like it. Does that seem normal to you? I've never seen a flu vaccine commercial in my life. You???

The pandemic is unprecedented in our lifetime, no? Don't you think that explains it?

There have actually been pretty aggressive vaccination campaigns lately. The most prominent one that comes to mind is the HPV vaccine. The meningitis B vaccine is another huge one. These vaccines are targeted toward children / young adults in particular so you may not be as familiar.

I don't think it explains it. Unless one is living under a rock, they know there is a vaccine out there that is FREE to them if they so choose. So why are they really pushing this thing so hard??? That just doesn't seem normal to me.

Evidently the "persuasiveness" isn't very persuasive, at least to you, which is kind of funny because most (if not all) of the people you voted for, and those you probably watch and listen to on TV have all "been persuaded", even though they campaign with their own "persuasiveness" against you doing so.

I'm older than you, so when I reference my lifetime it encompasses yours. I travel for a living (nearly 5 million miles during my career, half of it on the ground) and in MY lifetime, I have never experienced anything that CLOSED the entire world to my multi-billion dollar business that employs millions of people worldwide.

This isn't a Democrat vs Rumpublican based political issue, none of my friends in Adelaide, Australia; Sao Paulo, Brazil; Eindhoven, Holland; St. John's, Newfoundland; Tokyo, Japan; Kerikeri, New Zealand; etc. care in the slightest that for the first time in my life I agree with Liz Cheney.

And they also don't care that you probably don't.

This thread is getting tired, let's discuss something else we might eventually agree on like abortion or the death penalty.

Doug "If there is a God, she Hates Us All" Goodman

In the US it does, for whatever reason, seem to be a political issue. I would be willing to bet there is a pretty good statistical correlation between position on the vaccine and party affiliation. Indeed I recently saw a rather startling statistic on the percentage of people who call themselves Republicans who don't intend to get it.

Not unusual for America I suppose. For example, you would think which person you believe in a he said she said sexual assault case would probably correlate more with your sex than anything else, but if the alleged perpetrator is a political figure (e.g. a Supreme Court nominee), party affiliation becomes a huge factor. The irony there is when the next accused is from the other party, everyone changes sides.

Follow the science. :rolleyes:

How many times have they flip flopped on this vaccine?? I have honestly lost count, but that also goes with the rest of the narrative. From masks don't do anything to wear 2, it's on surfaces to no its not. I could go on here but it's a waste of time.
Everyone up here also seems to have forgotten that the original advice was to get both shots within a couple/few weeks of each other to be effective, but because our Federal gov't didn't procure enough, they say waiting up to 4 months now or longer is OK too???? :confused:

Ontario will no longer offer first doses of AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine

TORONTO -- Ontario will no longer offer first doses of the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine due to an increase in reports of rare blood clots.

The announcement was made by Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. David Williams on Tuesday afternoon.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-w...cine-1.5423379

Now our Federal gov't, again, because he didn't procure enough vaccines, is talking about mixing them but yet there is no confirmed/verified data about the health risks nor if mixing them will actually do anything???

I'm sure the "science" will come out and eventually tell us mixing them is OK, but I imagine, just like the AstraZeneca vaccine, in a few weeks, they will tell us differently.
https://www.cp24.com/news/u-k-study-...ines-1.5425549

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipUn5goyM2I

What a mess! :eek:

To those on all sides of the 'speed to market' issue of the vaccine, maybe we should serious consider this: Are we taking too much time to approve everything else?

"All SUNY and CUNY schools will require vaccinations for all in-person students beginning Fall 2021. This requirement is subject to the FDA providing a full approval for the vaccine, beyond the current emergency use authorization. Certain medical and religious exemptions will be permitted. "


Yes you gotta have faith a-faith a-faith!

I have a feeling we see some growth in religious catagories