If it doesn't matter that a card is altered, that begs the question of why it needs to be graded.

I couldn’t have said it better.

Theatre of the Absurd, cardboard style.

Perfectly said!!

They're Addicted To Grading.

The judge wasn't saying that nobody suffered damages, just that the sole plaintiff did not. And so if he didn't lose any money as a result of wrongly graded cards, his case falls apart.

I don't know how many of you all are on twitter but following Paul Lesko for any hobby related court issue is a must. Paul did a very nice job explaining the whole case. His twitter handle is @Paul Lesko.

Regards
Rich

If we are still doing "Post of the Year" around the end of December, I would nominate this one. Concise, poignant, and right to the point in one brief sentence.

Hopefully the FBI's case turns out to be far more successful than the class-action, and we won't have to see these criminals keep wiggling off the hook.

If not, you couldn't talk "Pop" or GPA.

You're assumption that the primary role of grading is to assign judgement as to altered or unaltered.

I would argue the primary role is authenticity of item, and secondarily should be to give an assessment of condition so that it may be valued by pursuing collectors against other existing copies.

Alteration is even more subjective in my opinion than condition.
Who's to say a car has complete original running gear when certain parts are unnumbered?
What exactly is 'original' patina on 18th century furniture?
Those cards you like to collect, are you so sure none that conform to an assessment of unaltered were'nt in fact changed by early owners but in ways that the years have hidden? Even when passed around a group of well regarded hobbyists you'd get different assessments between them.

To me it's a bit silly to have canniptions over the 'dark arts' of todays bad actors in the business.

Grading should simply confer on opinion of Authentic for the issue, or reprint.
Subsequent to that all judgement should be left to the buyer as to judging condition based on eye appeal, whether the card measures correctly for the issue, does it have wear such as wrinkles/rubs etc, and any other valued criteria.
Those assessments could be included in a report on any slabbed card, and the buyer then weights them according to his preference and pays to that measure.

Simples.

Regardless of the logic here, part of the service being sold is determining if something is altered and, if it is determined to be so, not slabbing it.

Yup, but I think the guys in this grading business are on a hiding to nothing when you won't even get agreement if you put 10-20 of the most highly regarded hobbyists and ask them their opinion on a card's alteration.
Most would actually just pass on the measure of whether a card has been altered, but better yet for a real laugh tell them they have to put up 20K to back their opinion.

GUARANTEE none would be willing to do so, especially if you already HAD the truth in hand and were just taking a straw poll.

But they WOULD give opinion on condition, as that is plenty subjective enough they know they can't be 'wrong'.

I accept I'm participating in a flawed concept to start with, and enjoy it for that. I will take and mostly accept that grading opinion on all the matters they're asked to consider, and from that point the item 'becomes' what it is opined to be. Just as many paintings become true 'in the hand of' original pieces of work after an opinion by an art expert, regardless of whether that judgement is uniformly accepted across the art histoians who view it. The opinion of certain experts is accepted and the art world moves on, even though the truth may lie lost in the years of history.
If we were to flip to my concept for grading, which I think is less flawed, of course I'd be just as happy.
But If you want something that is absolute, then buying peoples assessments of alteration on 1-140 year old pieces of paper should NOT be your game.

Part of the problem is all of the outright and obvious mistakes the TPGs make. Many are laughable and some almost seem like favorable grades for certain submitters. I am sure I can tell a real vs a fake card as well as most graders. I don't use grade much any longer because of it. That said, if it's a higher end card it has to be graded to bring the real value. It's a conundrum.

As to the subject it will be very interesting to see the final outcome of the FBI's efforts. Hopefully some crooked folks go to jail as they did before.

These all have Hand Cut on their SGC flips and none are hand cut. Go figure. They all came out of a pack I still have. Grading is a crapshoot at best. I hope the new company starting up is better than what we have now.

https://luckeycards.com/pw575group2.jpg

.

Is that an offer of a bet of $20K that I can't tell if a card is altered?

If the card is in hand....
And what set.

Most of the ones I'm familiar with it's not going to be a problem.

Somehow it is for the Grading companies, which are apparently now hiding their mistakes/incompetence/collusion behind regrading and denial.

When Getting Paid for a Opinion How Can Any Opinion Rendered Be Held Accountable ?

Soooo, you're confident you could tell me if a 33 Goudey had had a light pencil mark removed in either 39'/69'/99' for the betterment of appearance as opposed to showing wear/rub on an area of the card from certain kinds of handling?
Or if an oversized card had been cut down in 1910 to fit an album, cut down more recently (say mid 80's) to fake either the buyers from catalogs or trade shows or of more recent value - the graders, or just was a vagary of the cutting processes used at the time? You'd put up 20K of your own money on the judgement? What if you're proved wrong the first time, will you put up another 20k and have a second go?
What about a 52 topps that shows a 'thinner' measure on one corner of the card.....is that a corner that has been layed down more recently to better a grade or was it in a screw down a little unequally and one screw tightened a little more heavily than the others?

What about the shiny stuff? Can you tell a card that has been shaved down so minutely with a professional paper cutter it still falls within spec?

Like I said, authentic versus reprint is not too difficult for a seasoned collector.
Alteration that is overwhelming eg chemical residue that shows in black light, bat wing corners etc and many others are quickly identified.

As Leon points out, it's the egregious misses by grading companies that causes the most consternation.
But that bothers me less. Crazy misses will be mostly rectified by the grading companies.....mislabelled flips, missed creases or paper loss, etc.

Hand cut versus factory is not so obvious and it's one of those that hobbyists would argue over. Sure, we could all just take your word Leon on this one (and we'd be right doing so in this instance above) and that's fine, but would you be happy for every submitter to get the same benefit of belief that their word simply confers to the grading outcome?

Millions upon millions upon millions upon millions of grading situations.
If you nitpick and think your estimations are so much more accurate than the graders, then welcome to the hobby. Everyone thinks they grade more accurately than their fellow hobbyists.

Again, you could never buy anything at a Sotheby's auction where you were relying on their expertise if you brought the same scrutiny to their judgement as is brought to the card collecting world.

If you don't like graded, then buy the card you fall in love with and if it's in a slab take it out and enjoy it that way. Don't bitch and moan and make perfect the enemy of good.
But If you quite enjoy the way a rectangular unscratched clear lucite slab frames a piece of sports cardboard as i do, kind of like a beautiful frame gives painted canvas a mount to speak from, and if you love being able to handle slabs and enjoy the cards without care of doing damage - even tossed into the hands of your 4 year old, and if the fact they are protected from wear so that future generations can enjoy them....
Well, then you enjoy graded cards.
Yes the grades are an unfortunate byplay. It is what it is.
A market can be established with this 1-10 scale so that copies of the same item can have relative value to eachother and can pass confidently between the hands of collectors.

I love the hobby just as it is, and I'd love it slabbed without grades.
The significantly aggrieved who complain should find a different hobby, as it aint going back and it will never reach the levels of perfection in grading you seemingly desire.

OK then...

I would suggest there is a middle ground where they: 1) grade accurately, for the most part; and 2) are not beholden to certain submitters, which is clearly the case right now. Grades are subjective. I get that. You can miss a good cheat job by a pro on occasion. But if you portray yourself as the arbiter of the card grade AND as neutral and independent, you should be that. I don't think, and am in fact pretty sure, that isn't even close to reality. Kind of like many other things - if you have the desire and the money, you can corrupt the process.

If that scan is correct - and it doesn't look right with both sides looking distorted - do you believe if returned to PSA they wouldn't correct the mistake?

I've owned maybe 7-800 cards over the last 30 years.
I've been selective in creating a collection that reflects my tastes.
I've probably looked at 4-5 million cards on line and in person in that time.
Within my own collection I'd nitpick some of the cards within a half to full grade, but would accept that I was nitpicking and perhaps not fully availed of the information they used as criteria for assigning the grade.
Over the other 5 million, there's probably a few hundred I was shocked with the grade given.
The other 4, 999, 800 fell in to the catagory of - ok, well, I guess that's around the mark.

To me, that's a pass mark.
You could pull up every missed grade card, and then I'd ask you to at the same time include every card seemingly fairly graded that you could find.

The rows of accurately graded cards would stream seemingly endlessly until you hit upon that incorrect one.

Look, it's fine if this is the cross you wish to burn grading on.
I think you're making the evidence fit your hypothesis, as opposed to displaying ALL the evidence and then fairly determining what the failure rate is.

Again, at least five million cards I've looked at over the last 30 years and my impression has much more strongly aligned with the vast majority conforming to my expectations with a tiny minority obviously cock ups.

But, everyone is able to make their own determinations.
I'm just suggesting that you will not undo this made pie, you can either eat it and spit out the annoying pits occasionally left in it, or just don't partake.

Take that PSA9 if you have it in hand (and it really looks like the scan suggests) and put it in a mailer and send it to PSA. I have a feeling they'll make it right so to speak.

If it's corruption you wish to chase down, good luck.
This country is built on it.

But getting it right is what they advertise they can do, what you pay them for, and what they are supposed to do. Period. And, I have looked at a lot of cards too. I guess we looked at different cards because I haven't seen what you say you saw. That's fine. Doesn't matter. As for the corruption statement, I agree, but I probably come from a very different perspective than you do. That's fine too. That's why we have we have a Constitution, freedom of speech, and, hopefully, a democratic process where we all have the right to vote and make a difference.

A. I don't think they portray themselves as anything other than a business offering a service to give opinion on the condition and authenticity of cards (as well as other things..)
I think all the companies are comfortable with other opinions being different to theirs, and you are not forced to accept their findings.
They give a quick breakdown of what they are looking for and giving a grade to, so that you can see their approx thinking. It is not a final judgement, it is an opinion that enough collectors agree with and value that they will pay money to have given.

B. I agree, money will buy you access, and with access and large amounts of money come the opportunity for corruption.
Show me an industry free from it.

I would say the very clear nature of display of the card in a slab, allowing such good viewing of it's properties, makes it more difficult for wildly innacurate grades to be passed along and not widely questioned.

The problem lies at the high end, whether that's in vintage and high end is nrmt-mt, or modern where it's gem mint. And the differences between those assigned grades can be difficult to see or argue.

So, some have and will continue to find ways to buy their way into rigging the system for their financial benefit. I accept it.
I still believe that if 50-100K people submit to any particular company, the overwhelming majority are getting a normal and honest service. Not EVERYONE is buying their way to a '10'.

The scoundrels should be caught where possible, but it's never going to be a 'clean' industry. No industry that involves the exchange of money is.

So, accept the limitations, help to bring mistakes to center stage, and enjoy these little bits of cardboard.

Or not and just write of your angst on a message board.

I'm not sure I've seen where these grading companies say they are right...?
They are selling opinions, not facts.

I'm with you on what you wrote last, but don't believe in this country any longer.
There are now two sets of facts to explain daily life in America, and being a facts guy this just doesn't compute for me. When my kids are done High School I'm moving somewhere, probably back to Australia.

My cards go with me, so one day there will be an awesome Auction that announces a 'find' in Australia LOL.....bid strong, the cards are all hand picked to be accurately represented and my kids could use the cash.

Fortunately, I don't have too much angst. I have tried to be pretty selective in my choices and have never been too invested in grades. I don't submit enough to have much swack, which, ironically, allows me much more freedom to call it as I see it. Nor do I give a f_ck about what people think about my collection. So I'm good. Right now, that allows me to say that what I see is not what I wish that I would see. In any event, peace.

I hear you.
You represent the aspirational, I've become anaesthetized to chasing it.
Peace right back at you.

Ps. Oh, and PSA sucks!!!
All my pre 1947 in SGC, everything else I'm trying to cross over into Beckett.
Not just that I believe these two companies make fewer egregious mistakes, rather I mostly feel i understand how they get to their opinions on grades better.

Where in Australia? My favorite place is Palm Cove in QLD. My wife and I were married at Balmoral Park in North Sydney.

Oh mate, Palm Cove is unbeliebably beautiful.....AND HOT.:D
I'm jealous, that's absolute G_d's country. Too many crocs these days up North so can't take the kids and let them run around, serious problem as these prehistoric monsters swim out to sea and then 16ft of chomp turns up in the shallows of the beach.

I'm a Melbourne boy but love Sydney too.
Probably end up back where I have most family and friends.

The when and why of an alteration don't matter. That the alteration did happen does.

Old cards, yes, I'm very confident I could spot nearly all alterations.
There are people skilled enough that their work would be very hard to detect. The point would be that PSA has multiple people, some very experienced. They also supposedly have a very nice piece of equipment that can allow viewing the card under various forms of light shown from different angles. Since it costs about 60K I don't have one. Maybe I should ask for theirs, since they don't seem to use it.

It's not about making perfect the enemy of good. It's about a company that calls themselves experts living up to their own claims. And taking responsibility for their mistakes instead of reholdering them with new serial numbers and denying they were wrong even when shown photos of the same card before and after altering. (SGC too. And probably Beckett)

Do I have graded cards? -Yes, from all three major companies, and a couple others.
have I had my own cards graded? - Yes, all by SGC.
Did I miss things about any of those? -Yes, for a variety of reasons. Only one alteration, which was a surprise as I bought the card around 1978-80 from a reputable dealer. Another was a last minute choice to get to the number of cards for a special. far too hasty, just glanced and said "oh ok, that's a nice one"
But, I'm not being paid to spot those things, the grading companies are.

On older cards I'm very confident, slightly less so on newer cards. The size tolerances are a misleading thing for many sets. It really depends on how they were cut.
A lot of modern cards are actually die cut and should have no variance in size.
Some sets will be hellish for grading companies in the future, most modern Gypsy Queens were apparently die cut in panels then cut in a paper cutter the rest of the way. So right out of the pack they have two different proper edge qualities on the same card. As for as I know, nobody has cataloged that in any way. I collected them until a couple years ago, and haven't even tried yet (Or completed the sets.) How will they handle it when every card in the set appears trimmed?
The sheer number of uncataloged oddities that affect entire modern sets or large portions of sets is amazing.

If I had that sort of money, yes, I'd put up my own cash against yours on pretty much any card from before about 1992. And on many cards made after that.

If I could spend the sort of money they get for stuff, I'd either learn about what I wanted, or hire an expert.

I've been given to understand that a lot of buyers of stuff that's very expensive do just that, as well as have that expert bid as their agent.

Good on ya. I have been very fortunate to have visited Sydney 4 times, including the 2000 Olympics where I rented a condo for a month near Darling Harbour, in Pyrmont. I have also visited Brisbane where I delivered an ebay purchase to someone. Probably a record for in person delivery of an ebay purchase. Went to the Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary, Mt Coot tha Botanical Gardens and got Cathy Freeman at a book signing. Farther up north I have been to Cairns, Kuranda and Port Douglas. I have snorkeled on the Great Barrier Reef 3 times. They give you more freedom if you snorkel rather than scuba. It also helps if you can free dive a bit. One of the times I got stung by some blue bottles or the such, but it was like a mosquito bite, no big deal. I took my wife out there on our honeymoon. She was a bit scared of sharks and the such but said it was one of the greatest things she ever did. They were filming the Matthew McConaughey/Kate Hudson movie 'Fools Gold' while we were there though we did not see any of it. There is a scene in a tropical bar during the daytime that is a bar on the Esplanade in Palm Cove.

Next trip there I want to go to Sydney (wife wants to see Bondi, I prefer Manly), Red Centre to see Uluru, Melbourne and Palm Cove. Being an Olympic historian I want to see the MCG. I have a few million Hilton Honor points so it would only be the cost of flights.

Steve, I think you're missing my point....I'm not questioning your hobby knowledge or ability to detect many alterations, though I think you underestimate the divergence of opinion to yours when doing so.
I just don't expect a fleet of Steve B's working for $12/hr in the grading offices.

I think the issue at hand is your expectation of what a grading company is, what it promises or doesn't, and whether it is beholden to meet particular expectations.

I own a 2014 Mercedes E350. When I get it serviced, the likelihood is that the tech who runs diagnostics knows how to use the machine that runs the testing and has a bare minimum of tools knowledge. For most work in and out of the Mercedes service shop it is sufficient to get him round most issues. Within the shop there will be a couple more skilled mechanics, and hopefully at the dealership at least one master mechanic. Each draws different wages, and when different mechanical issues arise expertise up the line can be drawn.

MY expectation of a grading company is of an entry level tech who knows how to use the basic machines, applies a standard set of testing to maintain my car, and keep me moving on my way.
YOUR expectation of a grading company is for master mechanics versed heavily in how the vehicle has been built and operates to give care to your 2014 E350 and to never miss what should be obvious with all that accumulated industry lore.

I look for true hobby knowledge here and amongst friends who know more about cards than most. They have given considerable years and innumerable hours to the pursuit because of love and passion for the hobby.

I look to grading companies to do some basic assessment so that I am not shocked or disappointed when a card arrives, ostensibly in a condition not as the seller has described. The grading company steps in between us and applies 10 minutes max of work into investigating just a few of the most important criteria, but hopefully with enough accuracy to grease the trade.

It's not like I don't see the problems you do.
It's just that I look at the volume, the time alloted, the fee associated, the overall experience, and feel it approximates what I expect.
I hate the mistakes, abhor the dishonesty that is suggested to be happening between some companies involved, and enjoy justice being meted out.

But I don't think the whole hobby is f#*@+d because of grading, or that the problems are so overwhelming I can't go about my own collecting.

Eat at enough Subways and someone will make you a sandwich that makes you sick. Overall, the company puts a lot of food in peoples stomaches at reasonable prices so they're doing their job OK....

That's how I feel about grading. It's mostly doing its job IMO.

SGC/Beckett/PSA, yes they likely talk up their expertise to give confidence to their customers. That doesn't bother me too much.

What each company really needs is a small division called 'Misses', where any problem card/problem assessment reaches a more seasoned tech who has a commitment to correcting the issue, and for the companies to be ok with transparency around those issues. There could even be a section of their websites just for that, illustrating in large pic format and with significant description the issues identified with the card that were originally missed, and for it to be seen as an educational tool for the hobby.

Problem is this country is such a litigous one, even here on this forum you find such immature responses where tar and feather is demanded and wholesale badmouthing of grading occurs with the seeming desire to just bring the whole thing down.....
These companies are better off financially just ignoring or downplaying the failure rate because it's clientele isn't mature enough to accept that perfection is unattainable and you get what you pay for.

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.;)

You've done it right mate. The thing I'll miss most about the US is the people, they've been so good to me wherever I've lived from NY to Chi town to KC. Everyone says to me they want to go to OZ one day, I always tell them not to wait.:D
Don't like to toot the horn but it's a beautiful country.
LOVE that you've taken real time, tbh it doesn't matter so much where you go in the world as long as you go. It's good for the soul.
Hit me up when you go next and I'll set you up with some food with my friends and will even take you to the MCG for a footy match...best time to be there. Holds a little over 100K people and the place pulses with the crowd noise. Goosebumps.

Every time I mention going there people complain about the flight, 14 hours from LA to Sydney for those who don't know. My response is always think about where you are going, not the travel to get there. It is a 10 hour flight to Fiji, but who cares, it is a beatiful place and the people are very friendly. I hopped on the local bus one day and went to Latoka just to walk around as it is not a tourist destination. I visited the farmers market in a large open air building. Some of the local men selling fruit asked me to sit with them and drink kava. When in Rome as they say. It actually had no effect on me, but I enjoyed experiencing how locals live. I have always tried that in OZ. Definitely do the tourist stuff, but also try to experience how the natives live.

I will take you up on that if the timing is good. I would also like to have someone explain the rules of rugger and cricket to me. They can be fun to watch but understanding would help. The same goes for (team) handball which I watch on tv whenever I am in Europe.

A few photos from down under.

Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary
Attachment 417022

Top of the Sydney Harbour Bridge
Attachment 417023

My wife did not understand how easy it is to pet a kangaroo and scratch them behind the ears when it is 95º+ outside but she loved it.
Attachment 417024

Anyone expecting perfection is an absolute idiot. Perfection should be what the companies strive for but any one expecting absolute perfection is even dumber than some of their posts make them look. As for that parkhirst it is a terrible grade if it looks like that in hand I agree the scan looks off as far as manipulation. But I will also 100% guarantee they would buy that card back if that’s what it looks like so what’s the damn issue. Mark will complain about PSA no matter what. It’s like a broken record. The thread could be about where are you going eat after the show tonight and he’ll comment with something about how bad PSA sucks. Frankly the broken record thing is tiresome.

Expecting perfection? The catchphrase from the CEO of Collector's Universe is "NEVER GET CHEATED!"

Most of us don't expect perfection. But many of these alterations should be caught under a blacklight, or by knowing what the proper size for the issue is.

But the biggest poke in the eye to collector's is knowing that long term trimmers from 20 years ago were never banned from PSA and continued to submit until finally being banned (maybe?) when PSA was under FBI investigation. That's 20 MORE YEARS of trimmed/altered cards they allowed in their holders, INTENTIONALLY.

I find your white-knighting/apologetics for PSA and the other companies absolutely hysterical. When PSA has been showed evidence of trimmed cards in their holders (before and after pictures of the same numbered card), they have disagreed with the photographic proof and reholdered the cards as the number grades they originally got. That's not just a whoops, that's intentional fraud.

I don't think anyone expects perfection, especially in a business that is assigns a numerical grade to a piece of paper and then renders an opinion on whether it has been materially changed since its first issuance.

As far as grading, that is a subjective matter entirely and perfection does not exist in that realm. What we hope for is a clear set of rules on which a grade will be assigned, an honest effort and that the grade is not dependent on the submitter.

As far as alteration/reprint detection, I believe most people are looking for competence and fairness, not perfection.

Seems to me that the majority of complaints directed towards PSA are about incompetence in being able to detect alterations and favored service to a small group of submitters, either by turning a blind eye to readily apparent alterations or relaxing the grading criteria.

Neither of these complaints have anything to do with perfection.

Tom Jordan

I think generally the companies do an ok job.
I don't worry too much about the actual grade, no matter what grade it gets some percentage of people will think it's wrong. I was never much into centering, and didn't like that cards that were very well preserved got downgraded because the centering was off.
I've sort of come around...

And failures are expected occasionally

I'm really not impressed with the sheer number of failures they've had with cards graded by particular customers. Some of what came out was probably in the range of 80% missed alterations in a batch. To me that at best points to someone who shouldn't be doing it. At worst, someone who is part of the problem.

One of the kids I worked with at the bicycle shop (who was a fantastic mechanic even at 14) has gone on to become an auto mechanic for range rover. At high end places these days most of the mechanics are excellent and have multiple certifications plus factory training. I worked for a while for a Chrysler dealer in the late 80's early 90's and things were pretty much the way you describe, except everyone was responsible for their own work. That led to variable speed and quality of work. Ok... ish... for Chrysler Plymouth, maybe not for Mercedes.

In my less sane moments I have considered doing some sort of grading, mostly as just myself. Patterned after stamp expertisers. In the US, it's similar to card grading, three main companies, and a handful of specialized groups.
Europe however has individual experts or groups that handle specific areas.
I don't think any of them do grades, they all pretty much refuse to have specified turn around times. And only recently have moved away from simply marking the stamp and towards a certificate with a photo on it.
One company did/does do slabs... not all that successfully, as they're fighting 180 years of keeping stamps in albums.
I've talked to a couple guys that do that as experts for one company or another, and the stuff they just know is amazing. like last time I learned that one way of telling the 1879 paper from the earlier paper is that one reacts just slightly to shortwave UV... I've never seen that in any book.

But I have a few other projects, and I'm hopelessly disorganized. Having people send me batches of expensive cards would be a very bad idea.

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

You aren't giving stupidity it's fair credence.

“So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?”

Obviously it’s more “something else” than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA’s list of “Recommended Dealers” still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

Personally I dont like how PSA grades cards. I dont see how a 60/40 centering gets a 10 Gem Mint! I sent them a Jordan rookie, pulled right from the pack, perfectly centered, sharp corners, etc. I get a 8. Im tempted to break out of case and send to SGC, just because. But Ive seen quite a few 60/40 centered Jordan rookies graded Gem Mint! Makes no sense to me. In my opinion, if you're a high volume card submitter, and your borderline of the better grade, you're getting the better grade.
As for the card altering, this stuff has been going on for many years. Im sure some graders know the cards are altered and trimmed and grade them anyways, put them in smaller cases. All one has to do is pull out a tape measure.
Makes the hobby not fun like it used to be. I personally wont buy any older high grade cards anymore, for the simple fact, it could be altered. Who wants to spend thousands, if not tens of thousands on a card, just to find out later on, it was altered. Id be pissed just like anyone else.

Opinions and names seem to go better together

Good analogy.

It's amazing that over a year has passed since the Blowout threads exposed widespread card doctoring and yet PSA appears to be stronger than ever. The CU stock is now over $43 - which is about double of the stock price when the scandal broke.

Sadly, it now appears very little will come of this. We recently learned that PSA will not buy back the doctored cards, but rather tell the consumers to the settle up with the seller. PSA continues to ban and silence collectors on their message boards who publicly acknowledge the problem. The outed card doctors, if banned, will likely use "fronts" to submit doctored cards to PSA and collectors and investors will continue to spend millions of dollars on doctored cards with not a clue they've been duped. In short it's utterly sickening how a select group of people have enriched themselves using this deplorable business model.

Pevarnick is still trimming, still grading through PSA, and still selling cards for thousands through major auction houses.
And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)

The sports collectibles industry is one that requires no education or licensure to participate, has no regulation, has no governing body to oversee even its largest sellers and dealers, has no real penalties for getting caught committing fraud, garners little to no interest from federal authorities or any other policing agency, and has customers who tend to look the other way even when outlandish criminal acts are committed.

Either accept it or take up another hobby because this one has always been full of shady people and probably always will. I hear woodworking is very rewarding.

Pete Townsend.

Perfectly Said....that’s just it. No sugar coating needed.

I disagree somewhat, there certainly was (if indeed it's over and it may not be) a significant FBI investigation into the trimming scandal. It's not fair to say the government has "little to no interest." There was also a significant investigation of "Copperfield," the guy from Mexico allegedly selling cards in resealed or fake slabs.

Of course, and all auction houses are licensed. So to say the industry doesn't have any authorities or laws they're beholden to is completely wrong.

Caveat emptor, but if that PSA 9 used to a PSA 5 with pressed out crease, no problem I guess. Surely the additional $15K in sale value makes sense.

Because they call themselves experts at authentication. How can they be if they can't detect an altered card? Sounds like a fraud one way or the other.

Its their opinion I opine

Rob,

Don't disagree with you at all, but here in a nutshell is where/how we all get screwed.

There is absolutely nothing illegal about trimming, altering, or doing anything else your heart desires to a baseball (or any) card you own. There is also absolutely nothing illegal about submitting an altered or trimmed card to a third-party grading company or service. And to my knowledge, there is no legal requirement that you tell any such TPG you submit a card to that it has been altered, trimmed, or doctored in any way, by you or anyone else. Now as for the TPGs examining said cards, they explicitly have it worded in their documentation and agreements that they are only giving their "opinion" as to a card's authenticity and condition. How do/can you ask a jury to find someone guilty of simply giving their "opinion" about something, especially when there is no single recognized, documented, and/or enforced set of codified standards or measures that a TPG, and their individual card graders, are required to follow? Short answer - you can't.

Card graders are not licensed by any independent, overseeing authorities, like say doctors, CPas, licensed architects, etc. There is no single, unchanging set of card grading standards to hold any TPG and their card graders to. Look at how many times on just this forum alone we've discussed how different TPGs all seem to have their own separate grading standards, and how even those standards appear to continually change over time. And also, not everyone in the hobby is in agreement as to what exactly constitutes an alteration or doctoring of a card. In fact, there are those that look upon such work as perfectly acceptable restoration or preservation of a card. Again, just on this forum alone, we have threads where soaking, erasing marks, removal of glue and stains, pressing out creases, and so on, are discussed and considered at different levels of acceptability by different people. So, if we in the hobby can't possibly all agree on one single, unchanging, recognized and documented set of standards and measures regarding the authentication and grading of cards, how could we expect some jury to ever find anyone guilty of having committed a crime regarding the grading, authentication, and sale of supposedly altered and doctored cards?

If anything, you'd likely have better luck prevailing against Ebay in their claims that their new authentication program virtually guarantees you'll get authentic cards, and as described. The independent TPG doing that authentication work is once again, only giving their "opinion", so how could Ebay truly guarantee anything? They really can't. But if you dig deep into Ebay's terms and conditions regarding this newly offered service, I wouldn't be surprised to find wording that helps to protect and/or indemnify them from any such potential claims.

And the worst thing is, there's not a whole lot we can do about any of this.

PSA will not grade items which bear evidence of trimming, recoloring, restoration or any other form of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity, and Customer agrees not to knowingly submit any such items. Customer agrees that in the event PSA rejects any items for grading, PSA shall not refund the amount paid by Customer because the determination to reject an item requires a review by PSA's graders and authenticators. Customer represents and warrants that he/she has no knowledge and no reasonable basis to believe that any item submitted for grading has been altered in any way or is not genuine. For purposes of this Agreement, “altered items” shall have the meaning set forth in the applicable Dealer Agreement or PSA Collectors Club Agreement by and between Customer and PSA (the “Customer Agreement”). If Customer has not entered into the Customer Agreement, Customer hereby agrees to be bound by the terms of the Customer Agreement, a copy of which can be found at PSAcard.com/join, and Customer's acceptance of this Agreement shall constitute Customer's signature on the Customer Agreement. Customer reaffirms its obligations with respect to Doctored items set forth in the Customer Agreement.

All we can do as collectors is try not to get duped in the process.

Excellent post Bob.

Butch

I'm glad that sh*t probstein is included.

Karma!



.

The suit has been settled, and in all likelihood for a token amount.

Your third paragraph is fallacious reasoning. There is clear hobby consensus, and even PSA's terms and conditions admit, that trimming and recoloring are unacceptable alteration. It's irrelevant that there are other things people don't agree on. Slippery slope fallacy. Assuming the evidence supported it, a jury could easily find that the knowing sale without disclosure of a trimmed card was fraud. There are detailed discussions of this by me and others from early in the scandal. I don't have the energy or motivation to find them.

Most sports auction houses operate in states with no licensing requirements.

An prefect example of why it is so dangerous to believe everything one reads...especially on a hobby chat board. That statement is absolutely not accurate if you read this post https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=244.

OK. Seems more likely that the benevolent trimmer may have sent back in the flips to have them removed from the pop report. Good thing that's been solved.
Crux of the matter: Cards broken from slabs. Cards altered. Cards given number grades by PSA. Cards sold for thousands by Heritage. PSA knows the score. Both they and Heritage were informed of the cards while up for auction. Did any get pulled?

Don't disagree but it is a better look when one is accurate. The statement I highlighted was not factual. I did not dispute the rest of your post.

I am one of the only one’s who thinks the Pump&Dump Shill Bidding is way worse than the altering not being caught?

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like altering at all but to me the real ridiculousness was the stuff going on over at PWCC...maybe that’s a better way to get some justice. Wasn't there direct electronic email evidence of that guy who owns PWCC writing a guy/bidder to take the next bid on a card, you won’t be outbid ? Didn’t Mastro go to Jail over Shill Bidding and not Trimming ?

Personally I would rather buy a natural card at a shilled price than an altered card at an unshilled price.

His Childhood Musta Really Sucked *

Board game weenie :D

Peter,

I see and understand what you're trying to do, but my comment about submitting altered cards to a TPG was that it is not illegal. What you just printed is the type of lawyer-speak that a TPG has in their agreements and documents to CTA (cover their asses), pure and simple. Absolutely nowhere does anything indicate there is an illegality to anyone for submitting something to a TPG that they know to be altered. Otherwise, why doesn't a TPG ever contact police when they get something that they see has been tampered with, and continue getting submissions from the same submitter they've found to give them such altered items, over and over again? That TPG language you printed is to make sure that they can have plausible deniability if there does turn out to be some blowback to a TPG for an altered item that is "accidently" graded and slabbed by them, and to also reinforce the fact that they get to charge for whatever they look at and grade, and keep the money, regardless of them finding it altered or not.

I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but for a card grading submission to PSA (or any other TPG for that matter), is there a specific question anywhere on their paperwork/application/submission form/whatever that directly asks the submitter if they are knowingly submitting an altered or trimmed card to them for grading? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that is a big "NO". Reason being of course that if they did, and someone was actually dumb enough to answer that yes, they were trying to submit an altered/trimmed card for grading, the TPG would have to immediately nix the submission since they specifically state they do not grade such cards. And then they couldn't charge for it and get to keep the grading fee money.

Allow me to translate what you just printed into very simple laymen's terminology:

Don't ever tell us you are submitting an altered, doctored, or trimmed card to us for grading, because if you do, we can only give it an authentic grade, at best, and we can't really charge you for it then unless you still want it with an "A" grade. But if you do ever submit an altered, doctored, or trimmed card for grading without telling us, and you did such a piss-poor job that even we can catch it, it will only get an "authentic" grade, at best, and we're keeping your money. And on the off chance you did such a good job with the altering, doctoring, or trimming, to the point where we our graders couldn't detect it or just plain missed it, we'll grade it. But if it ever comes back later on that the card you submitted was altered, doctored, or trimmed, it is your fault and responsibility because you didn't tell us up front.

I think that is pretty close to the true meaning. :D

Bob you're sort of knocking down a straw man because nobody has ever suggested merely trimming a card or submitting it for grading without subsequently SELLING it is illegal. It's the sale part that's the problem, and then it all becomes a problem. And if a TPG is knowingly grading altered cards it knows are going to be sold, it's arguably aiding and abetting the fraud.

This will turn out to be a nonevent. The vast majority of class action lawsuits end up with a financial settlement that is not significant other than covering attorney fees. I bet this will end the same.

What clear hobby consensus? There are some people that are all for restoration, and very many others that allow, or at least put up with, various other forms of alterations or doctoring. Hell, the very first card ever graded by PSA, and what is likely to become the most valuable card ever sold once again, next time it gets sold, is a known altered/trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder. What do you honestly think PSA would do should its current owner come back to them with the Gretzky Wagner, and ask that it be re-holdered?

We have been discussing for years how the grading standards and measures of TPGs are not the same, and how they keep changing over the years. All you'd have to do is grab different graded cards of different TPGs over the years, and show them to a jury for themselves to decide if what was graded as a 4 on different cards actually looks the same to them. And remember, chances of an actual card collector being allowed to stay on a jury by the defense is slim to none, at best. For criminal prosecution the standard is still to my knowledge " beyond a reasonable doubt". You, my friend, may be a little biased because of your own card collecting background and knowledge, and assume a jury will be of somewhat comparable thinking and experience. I'm going to guess they won't. And once they start hearing about all the different companies, graders, issues, etc., there are likely going to be a lot of doubts creeping into their minds.

I could go back and look for your own words in various posts, but let me paraphrase what I believe you yourself have stated in the past, knowing someone is guilty is one thing, but you can't always prove it in a court of law.

As I look at it, I'm afraid that the only way we may finally get someone convicted of a crime in all this fraud is if law enforcement and prosecutors can actually get someone directly involved in it to flip and testify against others directly involved. The participants that may, or may not, be involved in such fraud are not stupid though, and I doubt they would voluntarily turn on each other at this point. Unless they can get nailed for something else and only see making a deal with prosecutors as a way out by basically turning states evidence. As of now, it doesn't look like that is happening though.

Along those lines, I believe I remember reading elsewhere on this forum that Brent from PWCC was initially cooperating with investigators on the alteration/trimming fraud case. And then suddenly, he was not anymore. If actually true, that is a very interesting and intriguing development, don't you think? In potential cases like this, involving multiple companies and people, sometimes learning to say nothing is the best defense of all. There's an awful lot of truth to the old adage that ignorance (or at least the projection of such) is bliss!

Peter,

I know and agree, which is exactly why I think they put that kind of wording in their agreements that you quoted. If they come out say in their agreements that you're not supposed to knowingly submit altered cards to them, but you do anyway, they can always say they missed it, or it is only their opinion, so as to get out of any possible liability. But their big ace in the hole, to me, is that because you didn't tell them up front a card you submitted was altered/trimmed, you lied to them and they can plausibly deny that they had any knowledge an altered/trimmed card that got past them, and was numerically graded as a result, was going to be sold.

As I believe you have intimated yourself, we may pretty much believe and know what is going on and what it appears that certain parties are doing, the problem is actually being able to prove it in a court of law.

Absolutely agree, great point! Even if I'm getting shilled, I normally will not bid/pay over what I feel a particular card or item is worth. As such, even though I may have ended up paying more for an item than I really should have had to, I get something I wanted, at a price I was willing to pay all along. You at least have something that is real and the correct value, at least to you. Theoretically, you can turn around and sell the card/item to get back most or all of your money, if needed.

Finding out you got stuck with an altered /trimmed card after the fact is very different though. Chances are you find out long after acquiring the card/item, and therefore maybe have no recourse against the seller. And now that you know the card/item has in fact been altered/trimmed and previously misrepresented, you can't just go and sell it to someone else and have any hope of getting even close to what you originally paid for it back. Unless you go to the dark side and try to pawn it off on someone else without disclosing the alteration/trimming first.

Brent was definitely cooperating at one point, as acknowledged by his counsel at the time.

On another point, yes it's difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt under the rules of evidence in many cases even where the person is guilty, but in this case that wouldn't be because of any doubt that trimming is an impermissible alteration, on that point I would not be troubled. It would clearly be a material omission not to disclose a card is trimmed. You don't need an absolute consensus to establish that anyhow.

And don't forget in a criminal trial they would not have to testify at all. I think there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, but is it proof beyond a reasonable doubt?

I know, and I'm with you, but if the trimming is such that the TPG doesn't catch it (or says they didn't), it is kind of like money laundering now that the card resides in a respected and trusted TPG's holder. These TPGs have put forth that they are the experts, and based on the kind of money thrown at them to grade cards and the premiums cards in certain TPG holders seem to bring over raw and other graded cards in the hobby, it sure seems like they are considered the be-all and end-all experts. So, unless some card doctor comes forth and actually admits he/she submitted an altered/trimmed card to a TPG that they then mistakenly graded, you aren't likely going to be able to convict the card doctor of anything. By mistakenly encapsulation an altered/trimmed card, the TPG hobby expert has effectively opined and said the card was good. So who else do you bring in to court to testify against an accepted hobby expert? I'm not so sure the BODA/Blowout guys would be automatically afforded the same level of respect and expertise acceptance in a court of law in front of a jury as the TPGs who actually have people paying them for their work and opinions. And if you do find and bring in a different TPG to testify against them:

1. Now the jury is going to see that the supposed TPG experts actually don't appear to all have or follow the same grading standards and measures (unless the TPG being testified against is suddenly willing to admit they blew it and made a mistake).

2. Now you've set a precedent of one TPG testifying against another, which could end up backfiring down the road if the two TPGs ever find their positions switched in some future case. I can easily see one TPG agreeing to testify against another as revenge for testimony that was previously given against them.

They should make the entire jury card collectors...let the hobby decide how criminal something is!

That is exactly my point, these card doctors, and everyone else involved, have an almost perfect setup to get away with this, assuming they are all in cahoots. As long as they all don't get too chummy and share everything they do and know with each other, they can continue to deny knowledge of anyone doing anything intentionally wrong. It otherwise seems almost impossible to be able to gather enough evidence to convict anyone of anything.

And if they ever do get hauled in to court.......

Exhibit A - The Gretzky Wagner

This card is a known trimmed/altered card in a graded holder, graded by arguably the No 1 TPG in the world , and yet is likely still worth more than any other sports card on the planet! So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, here is a card graded by a trusted and respected hobby TPG that is proven to be wrongly graded, yet is probably still worth more than every other sports card there is. In fact, because of the notoriety of the card and the mis-grading, it is arguably worth even more, not less money, today. And there is that little kernel of a reasonable doubt that can start to creep into a juror's mind.

You know, it’s funny, when I spoke years ago long before the scandal to Brian B, we talked a bit about the Wagner and whether it showed the hobby didn’t really care about trimming. I don’t think he believed that, and the fact that he investigated the scandal extensively shows otherwise, but it’s an interesting rhetorical point. I liked your closing argument but I think the other side would have a much better one at least on that point.

i agree, but again, I believe a defense attorney/team would make sure to keep as many actual card collectors off a jury as possible. So assuming you're dealing with mostly ordinary people that think of us hard core collectors as idiot nerds (LOL), that kind of factual information will likely stick in their minds, and possibly give them reason to doubt that the prosecution claiming such trimming and alterations is always bad, may not be so true. They only need to get one person on that jury to have reasonable doubt, right?

"Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss. We won't get fooled again."

Close enough. :)
Who but Roger Daltrey could sing that? Not sure anyone else even tried to cover that song.

LaBelle- 1972
Van Halen - 1992 (Live, but released)
Axel Rudy Pell
Hayseed Dixie

A short and very varied list.

Also sort of quoted in a Terry Pratchett book.
"Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willnae be fooled again!"

Also for added amusement

Some of the upland clans have mastered the concept of law as a weapon however, and note that it is a good idea "neever te sign a feegle contract; six inch high people write verra small print". Beware the cry, "We've got a cheap lawyer an' we're not afraid to use him!" Their swords glow blue in the presence of lawyers.

From
https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Nac_Mac_Feegle

Check out this site LOL.
https://secondhandsongs.com/work/5477/versions

A world of cynicism squeezed into one line, and it will probably always resonate.

Peter, just listened to the Van Halen version. Not bad at all, great guitar work, of course, but it just doesn't measure up to the original. That song was made for Daltry to sing.
The Who have always been my favorite group from the British invasion, even over the Stones and the Beatles. I never grow tired of hearing 'Baba O'Reilly.