Yeah talk about a Catch 22. You can return the watch if it's defective, as long as you haven't taken it out of the original packaging and used it.

Here's where I stand, if you believe that the seller knew the card was altered because it was in a GAI graded slab, then the buyer should have also known that it was altered when he choose to purchase it in the GAI graded slab and therefore should never have purchased in the first place.

Unless the seller specifically gives you their opinion of the card, when you buy a card in any slab, whether it is PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO, GEM, or Bob's Backyard Butcher shop, you are buying the card with that authenticator's opinion. The seller is under no obligation to trust one authenticator over another. While no one else may agree, the seller may trust PRO/GAI/GEM/BOB's over PSA/SGC. By cracking the card out and returning it, the buyer has now forced their preference of authenticator on the seller and the seller can no longer sell the card as they originally did.

If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack?

to me common sense suggests
 

it was all on the buyer once he cracked it out. As was mentioned you buy the card as guaranteed by the grading company when slabbed. Additionally I believe the case and card were deemed authentic and unaltered so even stretching the argument out a little - ostensibly only the grade is subjective. The buyer altered a part of the original item.

If it's graded by GAI, evidently so.


Jeremy W@goner.

What if the card would have come back as a counterfeit , would you guys still be on the sellers side ?

This guy was basically buying a lottery ticket hoping it would pay off. He paid what a PSA 5 of that card would normally cost, and hoped to get it into a PSA 7 holder making a quick three grand. When that didn't happen he wanted his money back. Sorry, but the gamble didn't pay off. Except in this case the loser is the guy that sold him the ticket!

The altered ticket.

Sounds like the majority in this discussion believe if an altered card can fool a TPG and receive a number then anyone who buys it is stuck without recourse. I would have hoped everyone would support the buyer's right to have a refund should an "outed" card be identified and returned.

i agree. Otherwise basically a buyer is saying he will only buy it if the card will sell more for what he bought for it. no free lunch

Oh, they do, if it's an unpopular seller.

Since GAI is out of business, what about if it was in GTX or whatever holder. Can you break that one out

I don't know the OP and have had no interaction with him that I am aware of, but come on!! The guy in question buys the card (obviously looking to flip it for a big profit) and fails in his come to God, crack-out moment and the OP is supposed to be responsible for the return?? The card isn't in the same state it was in when it was sold. Plus, everyone knows GAI isn't a very (if at all) viable grading company. The fact it's in that holder to begin with tells most of us all we need to know.

If I was the potential buyer, I would've asked the seller two things:
1. Why isn't the card in a PSA/SGC/BVG holder?
2. If I crack it out and it's found to be fake or altered, will you offer me a return?

The actual buyer, as far as we know, didn't hedge his bets at all. He probably just saw dollar signs and went for it, knowing he was able to do so because of ebay's SOP.

How do you know it's altered? Because PSA says so? Yeah, they're pretty good at determining that.

So why is it supposedly such a huge loss to the seller, that his card is no longer in that GAI holder?

Because it was sold IN the holder. Now it's OUT of said holder. People can disagree about GAI all they want, but it's beside the point. The card status has changed between the sale and the return.

This is what I don't understand. If the holder is essentially worthless, because nobody values a GAI grade, why is no longer having the card in the worthless holder a great loss? It makes no logical sense.

Does intent always matter?
 

Card is in an old PSA 7 slab but seller knows it’s over graded. Buyer cracks and submits to SGC and it comes back a 5. Is that worthy of a return? I still think if you crack it out you own it unless it comes to light that the seller altered the card or purposely enhanced the card.

In the PWCC example didn’t they accept consignments from known fraudsters and card doctors? To me this is apples and oranges.

This is a big point. What's to stop people from attempting this?

I can't believe people really think it's OK to break a card out of a holder and try to return it. I get it, it's a GAI holder but this is crazy. Buyer should have attempted a cross over IN THE HOLDER. If they didn't want any bias, then that's a risk THEY take by removing it, period.

Next up will be people cracking out PSA/SGC cards and attempting returns because the card graded ALT/AUTH.

The only value that GAI holder had was the misinformation on it, which could've been used to foist a doctored card onto the next unsuspecting buyer.

In other words, the only value it could have had in round 2 was to deceive. So the seller has now been deprived of any ability to overrepresent the card (not that he did the first time, I will assume he was innocent). I'm not sure I feel badly about that.

A guy with over 11k feedback is unsuspecting?????


Wow just wow.

Dean B, Thank you and you get it

You think a buyer who suspects the card is doctored is going to spend $5k on it?

Wow, just wow.

He took a gamble on the card so he could triple his money. It didn’t work out in his favor. So did he suspect it? Maybe not. Did he think it was a gamble worth taking??? I vote yes.

Now let's examine it from the seller's POV. If the seller thought he had an unaltered NM card, why didn't he try to get it into an SGC or PSA holder? I would ask Dave directly, but I've already done so multiple times.

I can’t answer for Dave but would a satisfactory answer be - he bought the card a long time ago and later it was revealed that GAI graded cards have issues. Instead of taking the gamble he’ll auction it off as is even if it might be worth 3X the value in another holder. The new buyer doesn’t mind the gamble and drops $5K on the card. The gamble doesn’t pay off.

If the card crosses at a PSA 7 Dave isn’t going to get more money from the buyer. And I’m sure this happens with GAI cards. They aren’t all bad but they come with inherent risk. I’d assume someone with 11k feedback would know this. So like others have said this opens up a can of worms for every GAI card that is sold. It’s a free gamble for a buyer.

Plus this point as well - with the 100’s of high end cards coming up altered from PSA what makes them the end all be all authority on altered cards?

To me all the conjecture is beside the point. The buyer (by all circumstantial evidence an educated one if you insist on some conjecture!) bought a card from a TPG of ill-repute. For no reason other than hoping to hide information from a different TPG he cracked the card before submitting it. There is NO NEED to crack a card for cross-over and by doing so he has, in my opinion, violated any good faith bargaining position with the seller. He takes advantage of ebay's insanely liberal return policy and returns an item that is materially different from the one he received.

If the ONLY way to cross something over was to crack it I might feel differently. For the people comparing this situation to PWCC where they were active participants in massive fraud, I don't see it without some more damning evidence than what we have so far.

I have bought GAI First Graded cards to flip. I will concede Peter's point that I bought them to resubmit and I have a GAI first graded T206 in my possession right now that isn't going for cross-over because there's no way it's not trimmed. Ethically I don't feel right passing the card along even WITH disclosure, but legally I can't imagine someone being able to make a material change to a piece of property and then being allowed to return it with the seller forced to refund. I can't think of a great analogy because I can't think of any other type of sale where this would be an option!

So -- you sell me a wax pack already authenticated. It looks OK from the outside. I open it and it's an obvious fake, as in Mark's hypo. No return?

If I thought a GAI 7 Gehrig was legit and fairly graded, and it was worth 3x in a PSA or SGC holder, it's a no brainer I would take the gamble. It's not rational to leave that much money on the table.

Unless you can prove I am a bad actor I don't think you can make a material change to the item. Again if someone comes up with a smoking gun that puts the seller into a similar category as PWCC then that's a different story.

Plus, how do we prove it was a fake? Take your word for it that the cards were mixed series? Then you merrily return a bunch of NM commons that you had laying around while grading the Mantle you ACTUALLY pulled.

Again there's a difference between legal and ethical here, but I feel the buyer acted unethically as well since again (and again, and again) there is no need to crack a card to get a new grade. He did it only for a perceived advantage knowing full well the risk he was taking, or actually NOT taking since Ebay says "hey, whatever you want Mr. Buyer.

What's your legal opinion on the situation Peter?

Would you crack it?

If I believed in it yes; I think the chances of PSA or SGC crossing a GAI graded card in a slab are probably not good just on principle.

You're fighting the hypothetical by injecting too many externalities. Let's just assume I could prove to your satisfaction the pack was fake. Or you were there when I opened it.

Maybe externalities, but I'm trying to keep it apples to apples. If I am there when you open it, ostensibly you are doing it with my blessing. The OP never was consulted before the card was cracked.

The other fundamental difference in the scenarios is that you almost HAVE to open the pack to find out it's no good (yes I know there are other ways to check a wax pack but a good resealer knows how to re-create them) this card DIDN'T HAVE TO BE CRACKED! Or had I mentioned that already?

For the record I have crossed cards in other company holders, as have others who have actually reported their results in threads on Net54. I tend to do about as well predicting the grades as I do with raw cards which is generally fairly well.

Oh, and you are ignoring a lot of my post :)

well
 

I subbed about 100 cards to GAI a little after they started - mostly N28 and N29 cards as well as a few cigarette packs. Quite a few were first graded. I believe that most (if not all but??) were clean and unaltered as at the time I was wary of things being done to cards (I actually was at a show once and SAW someone using a SISSOR on a card) so I looked quite closely for rolled edges coloring etc.. Not every GAI card is suspect BUT it's on the buyer if he ALTERS what was a card in a holder into what is now a card and a holder. Forget his intentions or if he knew anything about GAI or PSA or SGC or whomever - don't believe relevance.

I sold and/or cracked EVERY ONE OUT before AND after they didn't open "Monday".

In a world where TPGs acted in good faith they WOULD have to crack a card out of a holder to be sure they could cross it. There is no way they can adequately assess the edges of most cards through the slab, in my opinion.

1- it’s not OK on general principle to crack a card, submit for regrading and return when the card is “A”, or is not the grade the submitter wants. No honest person disputes this.
2- it’s not OK to sell a card in an inferior holder that has been rejected from other grading services as not being a number grade, without disclosing as much in the sale. No honest person disputes this.

The OP is only one they knows if #2 is true, to me it seems pretty obvious. If so, I’d suggest recognizing the karma in play. Reach out to the buyer and negotiate a reasonable purchase price based on a “A” grade. Many of the previous posts illustrate the reasons why he should want to put and end to this, as should the OP.

If the OP and buyer are both a bit unhappy with the result then that’s probably the best result.

Actually, that holder had one other value. It positively identifies that as the same card originally sold. That's one possibility no one seems to mention. If it was my card, that would be my concern. If the buyer returns a trimmed 1933 Lou Gehrig, how can I be sure it's actually the card that was in the GAI slab? The buyer supposedly bought the card and got it regraded by PSA in one week. Many wondered how he was able to get such fast service. What if he didn't return the card he was sold, but a card he had submitted that was rejected by PSA? He didn't even return the GAI slab it was in. Why not?

In the world of hypotheticals, maybe the buyer cracked it out, got a 7, took an altered one and returned it. Double dipped, in effect.

Seller is still screwed.

Originally Posted by nsaddict View Post
If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I’m in the camp you crack it out it’s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack? < Peter’s response ( not sure how to quote in blue box fashion)
__________________


So Peter, if I buy a 1961 Topps unopened pack and open it, I can send it back if I don’t pull a Mantle?

In my hypothetical, I stated that the buyer of the pack opens it while on camera, for a YouTube video. Let's say a few honest, reputable witnesses are also there.

When we were discussing someone starting a new, technically modern and objective grading service, many, many posters here commented that it was essential to look at the edge of a card to determine whether it had been trimmed. Also the thickness of the card is important, and variances in thickness, like whether the corners are thinner, indicating they may have been spread wider so as to trim them sharp.

Now you seem to be saying, in the passage I bolded above, that cards can be graded, and doctored cards including trim and corner rework can be identified, while the card is still slabbed. You're also implying the texture of a card is not important to a grader, or when identifying doctored or counterfeit cards.

So, which is it? Can a $5,000 card be properly evaluated while in a plastic holder (rendering such attributes as card thickness and edge inspection impossible to examine,) or is the evaluation process involved enough to require the examination of the card while out of the holder?

The only way to know what is in an unopened pack is to open it. If that act reveals a deception, then the pack was sold under false pretenses, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not. In this case, the fraudulent pack cannot be resold to someone else and that is a good thing.

The only way to know if the Gehrig was genuine or doctored was to give it a thorough inspection, meaning, cracked out of that virtually valueless holder. This act revealed a deception. The card, when sold, was mis-represented, whether the actual seller was aware of it or not.

In this case, the card can still be resold for what it truly is - the reason the seller is upset is that the card can not be resold for what it was pretending to be.

No, because I'm assuming in your hypo you got what you paid for. But if you pay for an unaltered card and receive an altered card then, yes, you should be able to send it back.

There are plenty of pictures of the card that was sold on ebay, right on the listing itself. Comparing the card sold to the card returned would be simple.

As much as you don't want to believe it, the GAI holder did have SOME value - if only for the sheer gamblers aspect of it as to why this buyer bought it in the first place. GAI IS (well.....was....at one time) a respected name. Mike Baker IS a good grader. The buyer who cracked it out was hoping to make a monetary score by getting it into a PSA holder. He knew he was not getting a fake card. The same can't be said for a PRO holder. So, yes, the GAI card DID have some value. But now the seller doesn't even have that. He is forced to refund, and is getting a card that doesn't even have the GAI stamp of approval anymore. His option is now, as much as I hate to say it, is to play the "grading" game!!! What if it eventually gets into a PSA 7 holder?? All of the sudden it is now deemed "acceptable". I, for one, am dismayed that this is what the baseball card collection has become.

Some cards receive a minimum size designation that haven’t been trimmed. They get resubmitted and get a grade. So if a card has a PSA grade, gets cracked and gets submitted to SGC and gets an A after a crack out is this on the seller as well?

I think the bottom line here is that a crossover can be done without a crack out. The seemingly greedy buyer didn’t want that influence (which is insane). The card should be graded whatever it deserves. After the crack out I think the return is void. Unless there is proof of intent by the seller.

The root problem is this: The card is doctored. The seller wants to sell it at a price commensurate with that of an undoctored card. That GAI holder gave him cover, now that cover is removed, and the card stands naked of its previous misrepresentation. It is what it is.

How many people on this site keep repeating: Buy the card, not the holder.

My opinion is that if had graded a PSA 1, I would be 100% on the side of the seller. We see all sorts of examples of grading companies having a difference of opinion on relative grade. But when a card is doctored, that is a whole different thing. That's deception on the part of somebody (probably not the seller, but somebody.)

Says who?? PSA???? PSA missed a ton of doctored cards. GAI says it wasn't. What if it gets resubmitted and actually gets a SGC and/or PSA grade?? Is it no longer doctored?? This whole grading thing has gotten kinda insane.

Agreed, more details regarding the (alleged) doctoring would be helpful.

As I said before, I think it's way easier to miss a doctored card than to see alterations that do not exist.

You and others make good points. It's a good discussion where I think we all see each others' point of view, and just put more weight on one side of the argument or the other.

Assuming the card is, in fact, doctored, I am glad it has been outed, and not still floating around in that 7 holder.

Is this really a serious question? 3,427 of your last 4,687 posts are linking to cards graded wrong by SGC and PSA.:confused:

Let me check your math, Ben.:D

All the more reason to try, maybe they would have missed the alteration.

But seriously, I don't understand why, unless he knew the card was bad, the OP didn't try given the huge upside.

It looks like, given the new precedent, yes. You could buy a GAI slabbed pack, crack it out, search it, pull anything you want and replace it with whatever you want, reseal it, send it to PSA knowing its going to fail, then send it back to the seller, saying it failed, and get a refund. Pretty sure that's the pack equivalent of what happened here, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Agree 100% (assuming the seller didn't know it was altered or try to cross it over with the same result). Anyone who agrees with the buyer, do you have and GAI cards on eBay and if so, what is your eBay ID? You have a new customer with me.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Based on all the information out there at this moment and the proven ineptitude of basically all of the major third-party graders... It is downright scary to me the opinions of many of you that side with the buyer here.

only potentially compelling argument not siding wholly w the seller I've seen is:

do the sellers of cards in crapslabs (non PSA/SGC) have any responsibility for checking to see if the card inside is altered? Peter asked a number of times if the seller had attempted to have the Gehrig crossed over, without response.

It is funny how many of us on the forum all the sudden put merit to PSA's ability to grade and with greater professionalism than GAI, when for months I have been reading otherwise. The seller got the shaft, like it or disagree, but this sets a potentially game changing precedent. What if it were a SGC holder cracked and sent to PSA? Does that change anything? Not sure of the value of the card , but I am in the camp , if you send the GAI holder to PSA, It will NOT be crossed over, so you are throwing good money out the window. And the GAI holder does offer value, albeit not much.

Agreed

See the thread called "1928 Harrington's Babe Ruth on Ebay"

To those supporting the buyer on this, I ask two questions:

1. So, the high bidder of that card can crack it out and send it raw into PSA (or SGC), and if PSA says its altered because of the odd right edge, the high bidder should be able to return the card? If not, why not?

2. Where do you get the crack (no pun intended) you are smoking?

I agree, its buyer beware when they buy a card in that inferior holder If they want to take the risk, thats their risk.

You buy it? OK. You break and expect a refund when its not OK? Tempus Fuggit.

Question is...at what point will a PSA holder be considered inferior???

Nothing surprises me anymore. This hobby has some real shocking perspectives from all walks of life. I think it’s mostly mid life crisis personality disorders.
There is truly a mental disorder aspect to the madness. I don’t know how legitimate businesses take any of the alleged claims seriously. :o

I’m almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days.
I don’t take a negative stance very much but this instance kind of did it.
Ok rant over. :D

Not sure the buyer took a risk here, with over 10k eBay transactions he is probably very familiar with their return/refund policy and took full advantage of it when the item was determined to be altered. Would be a nice case for Judge Judy to hear but apparently its okay under eBays rules.

I agree and I wouldn't have any issue with the return as long as the card was not cracked out of its original holder.

[QUOTE=ullmandds;1929915]I agree and I wouldn't have any issue with the return as long as the card was not cracked out of its original holder.[/QUOTE

If you crack, no give back.

I'm surprised nobody has really explained the timeline.

Seller to buyer to PSA to buyer ….three trips through the post office, plus time at PSA even giving the benefit of the doubt that the buyer could turn the card around and remail the same day.

And all that happened in one week?
Even with express mail, three days are used up in transit.
Yes, PSA has faster times for higher value items, but does anyone have recent experience with the time it takes to even get logged in?


I just don't see that as probable.

good point

GAI and SGC slabs do usually leave enough visible to examine a cards edges.
PSA will often block some of the edge of a full size card, undersize should be visible.

I'm not sure about Beckett. It's been a while since I looked at the one or two Beckett cards I have.

Even the Acu-Grade slab shows more than enough edge to tell if a card is trimmed. (Unfortunately for me, or not one of my Delongs is Acu-Grade 7, and it is trimmed. Of course, if it wasn't I wouldn't own it... )

How many threads are there about resubs where a card is a nice 5-6, gets cracked and resubmitted, comes back a 3 gets cracked and resubbed, comes back trimmed, cracked and resubbed and comes back a 7...

Without seeing it close up, I suspect it's worth another try or two at PSA.
Now whether the other two opinions are right, that's a toss up.

I wondered about that very thing early on in this thread. It doesn't add up to me.

The OP has held back some info. For example, unless I missed it, the person who purchased the card on eBay hasn't been identified. Additionally, the unnamed buyer hasn't come on here (so far as I know) to fill in any details.

So, we're left to wonder, discuss, and piece things together using incomplete information. Along the way, this thread has generated approximately 200 responses. Two opinions have been shared repeatedly:

1. Case was cracked open - the sale should be final
2. Card was altered but sold as near mint - buyer should get a refund

To me, neither position is entirely right or entirely wrong. That is what makes this such a fascinating discussion. It's also what may lead to a most remarkable scenario.

Both buyer and seller can argue that they deserve to keep their money. Ultimately, both of them may get to do just that.

The buyer already got their refund through eBay. The seller can (and likely will) fight that through PayPal or their bank. One possible outcome is this:

Buyer gets to keep their refund
Seller eventually gets paid
At least one company foots the bill as the cost of doing business

And, of course, seller still has the card...we think.

Maybe I am confused. Ebay says it sold Oct 14th and OP's first post was Nov 7th. That is 3 weeks of time and I am sure all of that could easily happen in 3 weeks.

Thank you, Eric!!

While some on these threads have been frightened by this conversation:

And others have said that an opposing view is evidence of a personality disorder:

You, Eric, have nicely, and in a respectful, non-insulting way, summarized this discussion by pointing out that there are two perspectives that each have some validity.

The point of a discussion like this isn't to "win" it, but to share perspectives. When someone says that such a discussion makes them "almost embarrassed to call myself a collector these days", or that the discussion itself is "downright scary" that's disappointing.

I agree that this is a weird thread with 2 types.

1) plain and simple the item returned was not the item sold and buyer should not get a refund for returning an altered product.

2) people making all sorts of excuses on why someone can buy an item alter it and return it for a full refund. This one really bafles me but I doubt there is any subject we all agree on.

Ben, if you buy a Rolex watch that has elaborate packaging, open it, and discover fraud, are you saying you cannot return it because it is opened?

Mike that doesn't even make sense, plus it is totally irrelevant to what really happened.

Biff,
It is quite similar. Maybe the buyer could've returned the card and added $20 for the cost of the cracked holder. Would that be fair?

So maybe the question is of what value does the packaging of an item have relative to the actual item value. Clearly you can return many items (watches, electronics, etc) after you've damage the package. In contrast, when it comes to collectibles, the package has actual value and destroying the package reduces the value of said collectible. But somewhere in between is a large gray area.

Perhaps for future GAI sales, one should sell the holder, not the card inside. For example, I have this near mint intact GAI 7 holder for sale, $3000...and I'll throw in the card for free. If the buyer should brake the GAI holder in hopes of getting the card in a PSA holder, he can't ask for his money back because he paid for the intact GAI holder.