It’s altered badly

yes i added to my comment....but the rounding part is interesting

so how much is PSA supposed to pay back on this one? No lawsuits filed so everyone must be being paid back to their satisfaction

Peter, what I'm asking is, is there a comprehensive list of Whittman/PWCC cards. I have already found two I purchased on the list and wanted to check all the PWCC cards I have. Thanks.

The thread I linked to is the subs done so far. MANY more subs are coming.

Here is the list to date.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...48&postcount=1

Thanks Peter!

Stay tuned. It's going to be ugly.

This is an SGC card, for starters.

so SGC doesnt pay anything back? I think you know what i mean.

Someone has to make a claim, Jake. It got outed yesterday. I really don't know what you're driving at here. I hope you do. :)

So does anyone have any idea of where the cards that are rejected by the TPGs are winding up?

Are they just being resubmitted over and over until they finally get a numeric grade?

Are they being sold/auctioned raw through some other dealer?

Maybe someone is using them as coasters for their drinks?

They are somewhere though; they have not disappeared.

Some of 1 and some of 2 I suspect.

Seems like, for vintage, he's submitting to PSA first, having a high success rate, and then may try back at PSA again before submitting to SGC. If the first touch-up didn't work, maybe a second will? Some of the cards were purchased two years prior to coming back up for sale. This may be due to the ones that were initially deemed altered being retried multiple times.

Some of the sets really only have value in PSA slabs because of the registry.

Lots of talk, no lawsuits. If no lawsuits, that says might not be such a problem.

Or... keep your scams to small dollar amounts and refund readily when found out... No lawsuit no problem? :confused:

Sure Jake whatever you say.

I don't follow this at all. There are some very expensive altered cards in holders, starting with 00000001.

It was mostly a response to the idea that if there aren't lawsuits there's no problem.
Not many will sue over $10, especially if they say "oh I have a problem" and they get their $10 back right away.

Now the other bike shop in town where the owners relative confronted by a soon to be bride with some pretty gnarly facial scrapes from the handlebars coming loose who replied to this news with "well what do you expect me to do about it? " …

As Jimi Hendrix sang, if 6 was 9, I don't mind. 53 Parkhurst.



https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3201

No lawsuits in the last two hours. Onto the next hobby disaster, this one’s cleaned up.

Jake will be pleased.

LOL how dare they give it the same grade after such a nice trim job. Read the description.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3232

Possibly a world record for most trimmed off a card.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3233

And not far behind.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3236

Always complaining, always negative. The diamond cut is gone! Isn’t that a good thing?

Yes, and that's a good thing for the hobby!! And in any event, it was just a bump.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3237

Best one today.

And the PSA Kool Aid Drinkers Continue To Buy.
How ugly is this year’s National Gonna Be At two booths ?

Are we to believe the PSA graders stink this bad at their job ? This stink so bad of other stuff going on.....Ov Vey

T206 Cobb Red SGC 3 to 6.5
 

Have we made a list of all the different types of alterations found so far by Moser?
1) Trimming
2) Bleaching
3) Rebuilding corners
4) Filling pinholes
5) Repairing tears
6) Pressing out creases
7) Recoloring to cover up paper loss or minimize appearance of fisheyes/snow
8) Removing caramel/wax/gum stains
9) Shill bidding and winning his own auctions
10) Faking rough cuts

Things Moser has confessed to: just bumping cards on the basis of their own merits.

If only he would use his powers for good...

Leaf Mini.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3254

Mercy. Another Leaf Mini.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=136

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3388

Yowch. These just don't stop.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3390

How in the hell can that much of a trim pass review? On some of these altered cards, I have sympathy for the TPGs as it is virtually impossible to tell the alterations without having the benefit of the before and after comparison, which they don't have when grading. But these ones with the major trims, I just scratch my head...

To paraphrase the Dylan song
 

Something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Do ya, Mr. Sloan?

Are there any regular sized Leaf cards left?

Appears so...still no lawsuits.....guess will keep posting all of this injustice but no lawsuits.

correct..if there are no lawsuits its not enough of a problem...usually even when there are no criminal charges there are at least civil lawsuits...if you dont see any civil lawsuits then you can forget criminal charges etc..

its a problem even if no lawsuits but i would worry about problems where there are actual lawsuits and criminal charges more than on problems where there aren't

I have a bunch of them with fat borders...i wonder how much the population went down actually...

Do you think lawsuits occur before or after a plaintiff attempts to get his money refunded?

Do you think criminal charges are brought before or after law enforcement completes its investigation?

DNFTT, as they say. It's so absurd as to not warrant comment at this point.

I'm defending a case right now that was filed almost 2 years after a merger, claiming shareholders of the acquired company got shortchanged. I guess if Jake had been advising the client he would have told them to rest easy a few days after the closing. No lawsuit, no problem.

Maybe he practices in a jurisdiction where the statute of limitations is only a week? Mars perhaps?

Less gravity may translate to a shorter limitations period.

Well BP oil spill there were lawsuits next week....not comparing cards to that but you are acting like its unrealistic to have lawsuits filed in a month...its not uncommon to have lawsuits filed in a week. Its been more than a month..how long do you think isn't too long? 3 months? 4 months? You tell me..

I agree if money is refunded and all the buyers are happy there wont be lawsuits thus far there are no lawsuits.

law enforcement completing its investigation? Civil suits occur much faster than that. As stated, there may be no criminal cases but there always are civil cases if its a real problem. If theres a criminal case there WILL be civil cases of course.

Also there are people that dont care what is offered and they want a lawsuit filed to make everything public instead of signing a release and be silent. I think theres a large enough sample size of buyers that were wronged that the all wont be satisfied with a refund and going quietly etc if its truly a big deal in the hobby

I agree cases can be filed a day before the Statute of Limitations but if this is such a big issue and deep and rich with so many people burned. i would think someone will file a case before 2 years. Heck someone sued the Spurs for not playing their Starters a few years back and it was a day or so after it happened.

Someone may yet sue. They would have to first submit the card to PSA under the guarantee, and PSA would have to decline to honor the guarantee, before any claim would be ripe. That is going to take time. The guarantee does not require PSA to review a card within X days does it?

I know a lot of card buyers that are pretty impatient. If a card is late a few days they go nuts. If you thought you lost 5k? How long would you wait around. 3 months? I guess i am asking what time frame do you think is a reasonable time that you would agree that it would appear strange no lawsuits are filed and/or that appears refunds are being paid to everyone's satisfaction so no lawsuits are filed. Dont tell me a year..

If I sent the card back on day 1 I would still have to wait for them to review it, which might well take 3 months given their turnaround times.

Id like to hear one person on net54, who actually is in that situation say they are willing to wait 3 months for a review on their card.

What choice is there? Are you going to sue PSA for not reviewing your card fast enough when there is no document obligating them to review within a particular time? Sounds like a great cause of action. It would get tossed in a minute and you might get sanctioned.

Mr Spaeth you need to take your own advice.:D

I know. Don't I know it.

The Mars day IS somewhat shorter than ours...

So they can take 5 years, what choice do you have...

IF PSA acted so badly, it wouldnt be a lawsuit about how long it is taking to review the card, it would be about them giving a certain grade (and im sure lawyers will come up with other defendants and other issues if there would be any actual lawsuits fi this was a real problem). If all of this is pointless and there is no cause of action, again no lawsuits, and whats the point ... sounds like they have no cause of action..

OK, can someone please file a lawsuit to please Jake?

Right, apparently everyone is willing to wait 3 months or years to wait to see what PSA will say because what choice to they have or everyone is getting satisfied with what they are being offered because we all know people in the hobby always agree on what the value of a card should be..

I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea that there's no problem because nobody has sued anyone yet is.

Good luck with that.

E121 Ruth SGC
 

E121 Ruth 17K gain. SGC. Also graded at National. Good show.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3405

And featured by SGC on Facebook.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3407

Let me guess how this goes.

Lets say me... Lawyer X, I've been defrauded out of $2000. I want to sue!
Lawyer X. Did you try to get your money back
Me no, I'm too mad and want to sue!

Maybe make the next line by lawyer X multiple choice
a)Security!
b)The small claims forms are online/At the courthouse
c) show yourself out, I'd do it, but that would only make your bill larger.
d) Of course! My retainer is $XXXXX
e) Of course! I haven't lost one in a while and it's good to stay humble.

WTF. They spotted the nearly invisible erasure on a T206 I'd owned since the early 80's but didn't spot that one?

Why do I always get the graders that can see?

Or do I need to tape a 50 to the card saver?

that e121 ruth was once mine!!! i sold it through REA a few years ago. It was pen on the back.

Or give to Brent to submit?

I really shouldn't complain, the card is still a really nice looking common, I'd hoped for a 50, maybe 60 and it still got a 40 even with the erasure.

But the one on that Ruth is really bad. It may look ok ish, but the contrast enhanced view it stands out much more than the light stains.

I had a buddy submit a gorgeous T3 to SGC they caught erased pencil that I missed and had to use a loop to be sure I was really seeing it.

Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Taking stains off of backs and fronts have been going on for 30 years + and removing lead
Never has it been right but it’s been done for a long time....it’s just now being exposed

It looks like REA sold it prior to being altered. I wonder if Brent bought it, as he did the WWG DiMaggio.

I know someone who'd know who bought it!

Someone who knew told me who bought the DiMaggio, but I'm not sure history will repeat itself.

SGC W573 Ruth
 

Tell that do the buyer of that 60k card that sold for 5k months earlier in an much lower graded holder and there are before and after pictures of an alteration... Just an example, just saying there are more examples of people that bought altered cards than guys that bought cards for less than 1000, plus people may of bought more than one 'issue' card which adds up

Doesnt mean its a problem. but there are problems and there are PROBLEMs....its not like the united states is not a litigious country. Always here stories of people suing for anything with disregard to costs and their time.

Theres a been a whole lot of talk with zero lawsuits..

Man bites dog.

When my daughter was very little she bit my wife. My wife bit her back. My daughter never bit again (true story).

It ain't me, Babe
 

Boom!! Boom!!
 

Was there any discernible drop off in the prices of the cards at the last PWCC auction for the "prime cards".etc . I know it's not much of a sample size yet. I just wondered and it seems like there are people paying attention on the message boards.

PWCC website change
 

According to this BO post, the page listing team members was taken down.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=3692