I have no idea what you are saying Chuck. I tend to skip over your comments as I find them the least helpful and rudimentary.
I attended an Ivy League school and so did my siblings. There’s no mule kicking incidents in our family.

Awful lot of cards BOUGHT by Moser with feedback left

"We know very well who Gary Moser is"


One the top buyers, conserver, and consignors that deals solely with PWCC

Martin, quit while you're behind.

I think Chuck is saying: Your thinking is completely the opposite of every one else.

I think he was also offering a explanation on why you think that way. This is just a wild guess.:D

And to take a step back, I also find it difficult to believe that you think so little of us collectors (or consumers as you put it), that we lack the agency to help set where the red line is in our own hobby. These “gatekeeper” companies exist at our pleasure, as I hope they’re all soon finding out. In fact, I thought you were calling on everyone to have an opinion and make it known so we can achieve a new, better understanding. we have no agency plain and simple. But people are quick to criticize when vocal companies like PWCC want to stir the pot and introduce change and discussion
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

Thank God for companies that are looking out for us like PWCC...

You really don't see why that is what people focus on in your posts?

We all agree to one degree or another that there is a TPG problem. But you think the solution is to trust the company that appears to be actively ripping people off. A few of us beg to differ. Saying "The TPG's are bad." Doesn't excuse intentional fraudulent activity.

@Goudey77: “we have no agency plain and simple“

That’s so depressingly cynical if you believe that. It’s also factually wrong: have a look at corndog, 312, and superdan at BO. Three dudes sitting in their boxers living in their mom’s basement (metaphorically, probably) are poised to topple one, and if you have your way, maybe an additional two or three industry titans, in both the criminal and civil spheres.

You guys are wasting your time with Martin IMO. DNFTT.

If you think those BO studs are going to shake up the card world then show me the $ that's going to back them in court or the agency that will leverage their findings for a case. Do you think mom and dad will lend them the money? So they can finally make an impact in this world.

I'm sorry to say this is bigger than them. It's up to the big dogs to declare what's up if they decide to throw us a bone.

Sorry to sound cynical. I've had a busy work week. :D

I think my original message is starting to gain some traction based on the other threads. So I may quit while...

Martin, if you have any concern for Brent you should really stop. You’re not helping him.

I don't think the collaboration of industry leaders can change the definition of what an altered card is. They can say whatever they want on their websites but collectors who are buying the cards aren't just lemmings that are going to follow along with this. The TPGs can offer new flips for altered cards or what might be called conserved, that's fine. People will still consider spooning out a crease, or fixing corners, or trimming as alterations. And prices will reflect this. So, there will be card doctors who still try to get altered cards past the TPGs so they can make a profit and they will continue to use companies like PWCC to sell their crap because PWCC has stated that they don't agree that these things are alterations, but are rather conservation and are therefore ok. Stop trying to give PWCC a pass and deflect all blame on the TPGs.

While I agree with you. Wouldn’t it be comforting to know a TPG can work similarly to CGC? Be vocal subject matter experts. Give that video I linked a chance. If PSA came out with a open chat discussing their stance in detail it would be kind of a big deal.

Martin, until all three grading companies tell the people they are not wearing any clothes, aka incapable of detecting alterations, your point is useless.

Besides, with all the CGC mentions, I am unaware that comics don't have the same exact problems as trading cards

Wow. OK. i'm not sure that what school you went to makes a significant difference in this discussion. There are lawyers who went to one of the prestige schools whose ass I kick regularly. Others, not so much. It isn't about the school, its about the person. Particularly after you graduate and most people don't care where you went. I am having that very discussion with my youngest child right now.

I do not disagree that the TPGers have a significant degree of culpability in this debacle, whether due to ineptitude, intent, or whatever the reason may be. Yes, they made a promise that pretty clearly was sometimes not capable of being even close to fulfilled. To say the least, that is problematic.

But how does that give the fraudsters a pass? If you trim a card and submit it for a grade because you are pretty sure that your fraud is so advanced that the TPGers can't detect it, how and why is that OK? You still knowingly committed fraud. Period. The fact that the TPGers can't detect your fraud doesn't mean that you didn't commit it. Caveat emptor doesn't work so well anymore, nor should it when a huge percentage of cards are being sold over the internet based on scans. You can be an apologist for PSAA until you are blue in the face, but the evidence seems to be mounting (to say the least) that it knew what was going on, was complicit, and did its best to profit from it. In what universe is that OK?

Good point...there's plenty of guilt to go around!

Lake Oswego and environs, it would seem. :eek:

And...so what? Chuck may be rudimentary, you're condescending. Feels like a push. I thought you said you wanted a civil discussion, but your response to a silly insult is to try and impress everyone with you and your siblings Ivy League attendance? I literally did laugh out loud at this, so thanks for that.

Anyway, let's play this little game. While I didn't attend an Ivy League school, I do happen to have a Mensa card. Does that qualify me?


I think most people find out that the state governments and federal government are pretty well funded when it comes to lawsuits and investigations. The easy answer here is the FBI, but there are other choices if you want to look around.

If you just want to say you don't think it gets that far, that's fine - add another item to the list of things that certain people here don't agree with you on.

I don't believe for one second that you don't understand any of these arguments, you just choose not to directly address it and try to divert attention to a comic book video. Even though comic books and cards are actually really different, which you also don't seem to want to acknowledge, but that's fine.

You've made your point and posted your video a number of times now. Good work.

Thanks, and happy collecting! How'd I do?

I for one am cynical enough to say I don't buy that. Whoever puts themselves out there as an industry leader can eventually change how people think.
In the past
"Beckett can't tell us what a rookie card is. "
"Nobody can tell us rookie cards are really worth more"
"We don't need anyone to tell us what condition a card is in" (Ok, that one is still going, but the grading companies have gotten a LOT of traction)
"No price guide can tell me what a card is worth"
"The grade should be about how well preserved a card is, not if it was printed right or cut so it was well centered" (Ok, that last one was probably just me.. )

The only instance I can think of where a big idea pushed by a company didn't really go in a hobby was PSE slabbing stamps. But then they were fighting 100+ years of putting them in albums, and nobody could figure out a good way of doing that with small slabs.

So did Trump and George Dubya...and Fred Dorfman


Hoover: Kent is a legacy, Otter. His brother was a ’59, Fred Dorfman.
Flounder: He said legacies usually get asked to pledge automatically.
Otter: Oh, well, usually. Unless the pledge in question turns out to be a real closet-case.
Otter, Boon: Like Fred.

Hi Steve,

You make good points, but I don't think collectors are going to accept a new definition of what an altered card is. We still debate what a rookie card is. And what a card is worth. How many times have you laughed when a dealer pulls out a Beckett at a show when you ask what a card costs?

You did great David. Thanks for chiming in!

He has been coming at you, that's fair.

I don't share your opinion that this stays out of a courtroom somewhere, or that some agency doesn't end up involved. It only takes one person who ended up with one of these things to decide they don't care about the refund and would rather stand on principle. There are plenty of angles and choices to pursue, including eBay (although that would probably be the toughest fight of all).

Also, not sure what the value tally has come to yet but it's increasing every day. $1m will get some media eyeballs, if a story or two goes out in the right places don't underestimate how quickly this thing could take off outside our little collector world.

Comic books makes sense that there would be more restoration, there's more pages, thinner stock, etc. I'm not opposed to restoration in cards, I just think it's already been pretty well defined. I also heavily object to PWCCs idea of what is and isn't restoration/conservation, if for no other reason than that definition appears to be motivated by what is best for business, not what's best for the hobby. I don't think anyone includes trimming as an acceptable technique, but if you can't tell by holding the card it didn't happen, even with photos of before and after? Sorry, not buying it. Get a ruler, and stop with all the tolerance garbage.

At a minimum, I think PSA has some explaining to do, a fair bit of refunding to do and some pretty extensive changing/improvement to do so they actually enforce their published rules. They also have some enforcement to do, which includes permanent bans of bad actors. If that includes people/companies who act as agents for those bad actors as well, so be it. If they don't, I don't know how that improves anything.

This is becoming an easier case for a prosecutor on a daily basis, and that's even before they investigate and compel people to turn over evidence. And I bet there are plenty of people who know things who would come forward. I would.

I just had to check. We weren’t classmates. ;):):D

And I’ve never used my educational pedigree as a means of intimidation.

What we do and what the majority of collectors do aren't necessarily the same.

I'd laugh at the Beckett thing now, but in the early 90's? Pretty much every dealer did that, even some of the better ones. Most of the guys I would go to either mostly did stuff that wasn't in Beckett, or used it as a very rough guide.
there were a lot of discussions then about what something was in Beckett for and whether the arrows were up or not.

And for most people, if you just go with the standard definition of the rookie card they go along. Nevermind if the player has 15 cards issued earlier, whatever the book or website says the rookie card is - that's the one. (Or 100 in the case of modern... )

If the claim that alterations are acceptable is consistent over several years, eventually what will happen is most of the people who object stop fighting as hard, or as vocally. (keeping up the current level for say 5-10 years would be difficult, some will most won't) And the handful of people who buy it becomes greater until the objectors are in the minority.

I was generally against grading, but as I get older, I graded a few cards. I figure someday my family will sell them, and the ease of sale and extra value added would make that easier. It was also nice to see some of my nicer old cards get decent grades, sort of recognition that the card was actually that nice and not altered.
Seeing some of the stuff all the companies have done the last few years, fixing problems they caused without changing the grade, refusing to admit having been wrong, and now this stuff where they are either grossly incompetent, or actively passing altered cards for a particular customer.. I'm against it again. I might go back to grading a handful every couple years if they get things together again, but that may be a long way in the future.

Sorry to digress for a moment - can someone give me a quick and dirty primer on how the Blowout forums are different from Net54? I was never on Blowout, but given all the discussion there recently that has been linked to here, I registered the other day (it has not been approved yet). Just curious as to what I will be wading into - I'm not sure I have anywhere near the time to be as active on that board as I am here - but I am interested. Thanks.

Focus mostly on modern. Lots of general sports discussion as well as cards. Younger crowd, lots of high tech dudes. Anonymous. No moderation, or very little.

And they are relentless if they sense wrongdoing.

da Vinci?
 

Recent discussions here reminded me of this case, at the outer limits of conceivably acceptable restoration.