Honestly, if you have blinders on, I am not wasting time talking to you Jesse. PWCC ADMITTED it. End of discussion. Have a nice day.

That may be true, but I didn't see that post.

Then perhaps you should read what's out there before making pronouncements about the state of the evidence?

Why? If you don't read it that means it never happened.

Are you always this cynical?

I believe my only pronouncement was that I hadn't seen any evidence, not exactly a groundbreaking revelation.

It implied that it was your assessment of the evidence we've all been discussing.

Occupational hazard.

What I've seen was a statement that the 52 Mantle appeared to have been altered based on before and after pictures posted on blowout. I saw no evidence they knew this card was altered before posting it. Or that whatever was done to that card even meets PSA's definition of alteration.

I don't remember the whole story with that 36 DiMaggio, but I do remember it didn't look good.

I am completely unaware if there is evidence that they knew of any other altered cards submitted in their auctions. I stated to Jeff that if he knew something I didn't, I'd like to see it. I still would.

You’re an idiot

Let's lighten the mood and reset this thread to it's original post.
Thanks.

Just saying .....
 

Isn’t that what started it?

This whole thread is crazy. They know what their doing to cards and they don't give a shit. Plain and simple. MONEY!!!!!

If you read what everyone else has read, you would be aware. If you aren't going to, you shouldn't opine. If you have read and still think there is no evidence, I don't even know what to say at this point.

Brent admitted the Mantle was worked on prior to it being sold by him. Now Jesse is claiming that Brent is lying?

PWCC has ceased working with card doctors. Uh, to stop something, you must have been doing it before.

Either Brent or Gary is going to run to the Feds to cooperate against the other to save his own skin. Who will it be? I have a hunch.

Poll?

How about you just simply open your eyes?

Supposedly he spoke of the "alterations" on instagram but wouldn't update the auction to mention them? :confused:

My reading of his statement was an acknowledgment that the card appears to have been worked on, but not to a degree that would qualify for an altered grade. I didn't see anything that would indicate he had knowledge the card was altered before the auction.

I did not go to law school like some of those commenting. But it seems to me you guys are making assumptions and accusations that even if very likely to be true haven't been proven to be true. And you're stating them as though they're facts.

If more evidence comes out tying pwcc to card doctors and showing they knowingly defrauded customers it may bring the company down. Or it could turn out there isn't any proof and this will all blow over. If I had to place a bet today, it would be on the latter. It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.

Jesse, great post.

Read what Jeff posted about evidence he has seen in the thread started by PWCC. Read what PWCC ITSELF said. Not about Mantle, about no longer affiliating with card doctors. My God, dude, take off the blinders.

IMO you just don't want to acknowledge reality, Leon. Everyone else here, except Jesse and maybe Martin, sees it plain as day.

Throw my name in there too, Peter. I, too, have yet to see any evidence that Brent knew any cards were altered prior to going to auction.

From the Alteration vs. Conservation Defined thread: "you are innocent until proven guilty." Wouldn't that same statement apply to Brent too, or am I way off here? :confused:

You make a worthy addition David.:D My apologies for not including you.

You're a smart guy David. If I tell the world that from now on I won't rob any more banks, what does that convey about my past?

A more relevant analogy would be what if a bank said they'd stop accepting deposits from money launderers, drug dealers, etc. Maybe they knew where the money was coming from, maybe they suspected but didn't ask any questions, or maybe they had no idea. But enough people on the banking forums were complaining, so they put out a statement saying they will work to prevent such deposits in the future.

Uh huh. So how does the bank know who to stop accepting deposits from in your example unless it knows they're money launderers and drug dealers? And why did it ever take their deposits? Anyhow, read Jeff's post about evidence he has seen.

PS read the words. It doesn't say suspected, it says proven track record. "PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based."

PPS if they're clean, why not release the identity of all the cards from such people they have sold in the past, instead of leaving it to the collectors to figure it out.

Well some of these guys are suspected drug dealers or money launderers. So they haven't been convicted of anything. And accepting their deposits isn't a crime. What legal justification is there for the bank to turn away their deposit? What if a drug dealer's grandmother gives him 100 bucks for his birthday? Can he deposit that check but not the drug money? How do you determine which is which?

I honestly don't follow the relevance of all this. Does a private company PWCC need a legal justification to turn away a consignment? :confused: I thought we were discussing the import of their decision to do just that with people they say have a proven track record. Unless that language was a BS smokescreen and they actually aren't stopping doing business with anyone because the track record hasn't been proven? Interesting angle, I hadn't considered that. But, I wouldn't put it past them I suppose.

The Net 54 grand jury is neck and neck here. I wonder what will happen?

Can you serve on a grand jury if you have a conflict?

No he cannot. Jefferey read too much fake news :cool:

I'm not a lawyer, but what if they turn away a consignment and that person alleges discrimination? What if they were falsely accused of being a card doctor by an ex business partner determined to see them fail? Who is responsible for putting names on this can't submit list? Is there an appeal process? In theory it sounds great. Just don't accept submissions from known card doctors. In practice I don't think it's that simple.

I think this is all a conspiracy to crap on my exceptional card that I was able to pick up. This conspiracy goes years back and Is too elaborate. I don’t buy anything anyone is saying. :D

But who here is Lee J. Cobb and who is Henry Fonda??

Like Brent’s emails?

Double post.

My head may explode from all these hypotheticals. Look, the bottom line is that for the most part the major card doctors are well known to the major sellers in the hobby and the grading services and many of the collectors. And to the FBI, I would add. It's a close-knit community going back to the pre-internet show days and insiders know. There may be some who have flown under the radar but for the most part, they haven't.

Peter, you're a smart guy, too. And you have the legal background that I don't. The statement to which you are referring to is not an admission to any previous guilt.

"PWCC will officially cease working with any individual who has a proven track record of consistently hurting trust in the marketplace, the brand of PWCC, or the reputations of the grading companies upon which our market is based."

It's simply an admission to "working with" which could mean a lot of things. If I told you "I'm going to stop working with drug dealers, money launderers, and human traffickers" would that imply that I was involved in any of that? It would sure sound like it, huh? But then what if I told you I was a parole officer? That would change the context of my statement, right? Do you see where I'm going here?

It's a damn fine card. But the thread moved on.:eek:

Context, David. Response to posts on Blowout showing numerous cards purchased by a certain individual with a certain reputation in one grade (in many cases from PWCC) and then consigned to and sold by PWCC in a higher grade. An individual who Brent has done business with for a decade or more (actually closer to two I think). Same individual who is the subject of the emails Jeff mentioned. Anyhow, I'm not going to convince you, so believe whatever you choose.

Because Peter, there are way too many cards to identify.:D Did you see the work on PSA 1 to a PSA 4- 48 leaf Dimaggio just posted in BO :D? And the 93 basketball trim jobs yesterday? It is a beautiful conservation job! :o PWCC is so intertwined by turning a blind eye to known card doctors especially guys like Gary Moser. :) This has been happening for decades. Some just don't want to see it, that's OK And there is no proof right now against PSA other than being blithering idiots. That wouldn't surprise me if they are in on the gag?

Using the phrase enter twined and calling another a blithering idiot says more about your intelligence than it does about theirs.

I've said that for years. I'll even say it once more for record. There are "dirty" graders at PSA that knowingly grade altered cards in exchange for money under the table. And if PSA wants to go after me for saying that, that's fine. But part of the discovery process (correct me, Peter, if I'm not using that term correctly :D) would include finding out who the grader(s) is by the serial numbers of the known doctored cards. I'm pretty sure PSA wants to keep that hush hush.

We can agree to disagree and move on. But let me say this. However you interpret the statement, at least he acknowledged he was working with individuals that are bad for this hobby. So hold him accountable for his words. If doctored cards still continue to show up in his auctions, I'm pretty sure the sleuths will bust him on it real quick. But at least he had the balls to say it. If Brent knows the name(s) of the consignor(s), don't you think PSA knows the name(s) of the submitter(s)? Do you think PSA would have the balls to make such a statement? To cease working with submitters of cards that have been proven to be doctored? No way!

If you're right about that -- and I don't believe it but I get why people would -- THAT would be a game changer. I think of the Fitzgerald line about Arnold Rothstein (the gambler who fixed the 1919 WS) playing with the faith of 50 million people or something like that.

I am sure PSA has a list of people it won't take submissions from. Brent even references it. That said, of course, there's an easy enough workaround.

If anybody gets a ruptured spleen as a result of this ongoing controversy, I accept most insurance or clean cold cash.;)

Can you perform an egoectomy?:D

Reimbursement for esophagectomies is more profitable.:D

Swallow that.:eek:

for once we agree, lol

Dont forget you just so happen to be from Oregon.

Let the conspiracies build!


Sure PSA graders on the take, Mosers cards must go to that grader every time out of thousands of cards. Maybe puts a smiley face on the box, or slides a ben Franklin in the card saver.


This is one of the most ridiculous conspiracies I've seen posted a bit PSA. Multi million dollar public company, not noticing an hourly employee pass one guys bad cards

It's not one guys bad cards, it is several peoples bad cards. :eek:

Brent speaks on this matter that’s been hotly debated here.

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

You "noticed" that pretty quickly. Must be because you are both from Oregon.

complete LIAR, IMHO. Body language tells the whole story, choking on his own words. I hope I'm wrong, but time will tell.

Rule of Engagement LOL. Enjoy your exceptional trimmed cards from PWCC. I'm betting half of everything PWCC sells is just regurgitated cards that spin around in cases after being DOCTORED.

I want to try and be fair and open but this is ridiculous. This is so much deeper than we know. I almost feel like paying someone on BO to check every one of their cards, just for fun.

You have done nothing but harm, IMHO

I have a 52 Mantle I would like you to spoon out the crease. Can you help?

lol exactly what I was thinking, but worded differently in the other thread.

No debate, nobody with any hobby experience agrees with his nonsense.

Let's see a list of cards consigned by card doctors.

Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Brent obviously hasn’t hired a criminal lawyer because no competent one would have let him do that. Very similar to Doug Allen: is convinced he’s smarter than everyone he’s defrauding and refuses to keep his mouth shut, insisting upon trying to lie his way out of this. Which of course will come back to bite him. I’m guessing Brent’s very nervous body language had to do with his belief that law enforcement was watching.

I admit I could not bring myself to watch it. Any good things for the hobby in there?:eek:

Brent announced during the PSA show on Wednesday that he's breaking ground on a second vault, and that the current one is scheduled to open a week from now. He keeps doubling down.

I watched a little bit of it so far. He elaborates on what conservation is and how it is when you can't tell that something has been done to the card. If you can tell something was done then it's altering. My questions are as follows:

1. If you can't tell something was done to the card, then what is the debate about which it is (Conserved or Altered) since you can't see it anyway.
2. What about when collectors like those on BO prove the card has been trimmed or worked on? Isn't that now alteration per Brent's own words in the video?

He's digging a deeper and deeper hole here.

Andy Huntoon

There are people who, if you give them a rope, will use it to hang themselves. Some of that going on, perhaps.

I am very interested to see the effect this has on the consignments and prices brought in the next few pwcc auctions. Thoughts?

I think it will take a lot more to slow down the train than is out there so far. I doubt most buyers are even aware of recent events. Stuff and flips will prevail.

Unfortunately Ryan, I don't think it will change the prices realized by PWCC auctions much. The vast majority of bidders in their auctions don't follow this story and aren't going to fall into this youtube video by accident. They will continue to bid like crazy. IMHO.

Especially for those nifty stickers.

Precisely Peter. How long until there is a PWCC registry to compete with PSA where their stickers come into play. You can invest in assets, keep them in the Vault to save on sales tax, still see your cards in the virtual world from the registry and then sell your assets from the Vault when you want to cash in.

I am not sure I agree- there are a lot of eyes on this board and it’s all the rage on other boards. I think there will be some effect; maybe people will limit their bidding to only the “must haves” on pwcc for a while (bc stuff does trump all). I guess we will find out soon enough.

That said, I do agree that this scandal, like scandals past, will do little to slow the popularity and increasing prices of cards.

Yup. And get investment advice too. Vertical integration at its finest, or something like that. Maybe they'll start a "conservation" service too, after all it's legit apparently.

One of the blowout guys says he found that Moser bought 200 NM-MT 1952-1970s cards on eBay from Greg Morris Cards. So all cards through PWCC should basically be suspect at this point. They claimed they were going to remove cards from their auctions from known fraudsters, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
All those loyal bidders who don't read message boards would notice if wide swaths of the auction lots were suddenly cancelled. Many should also be getting notified by PWCC when they already purchased a card determined to be trimmed or consigned by a known scammer.

Forbes (Seideman) has been suspiciously silent about the matter. Maybe it doesn't jive with their promotional tour for sports collectibles.

But hey, everything's hunky-dory. Let's break ground on another vault...

Convinced half their sales are going to card doctors, or back to the consignors. Funny, no trimmed cards sold, albeit one bought, from probstein.

Maybe the words they used -- "proven track record" -- were actually weasel words and they are taking the position that there actually aren't any that need to be removed. After all nobody has been convicted.

Going off the rails on the crazy train!

I hope that everyone who is returning cards to Brent and other auctionhouses that bought through eBay start a return through eBay or through PayPal.

Bingo! Somehow poor old Brent is just unlucky. All the fraud goes through him.

can anyone save this video for posterior (I always liked that joke) as I have a feeling it might come down fairly quickly.