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So one of the sellers who has sold several of the cards is a member here and the other guy is a big ebay seller.. Has any of these people replied to messages willing to offer help?
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Great work.
Sadly this sort of thing makes me wanna pack up my hobby bags and never return :( |
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There are a few more Marquard signed (authenticated) T206 cards on fleabay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T20...frcectupt=true https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rube-Marqua...frcectupt=true https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-1911-T...frcectupt=true Also (2) Doyles and a Carrigan |
So here are the cert numbers so far:
SGC 1377205-001: Rucker SGC 1377205-002: Parent $2,700 REA (also JSA) Post #1 SGC 1377205-003: Sullivan $6,600 REA (also JSA) Post #8 SGC 1377205-004: Conroy SGC 1378023-001: Flick Post #109 SGC 1378023-002: Rhoades SGC 1378023-003: Livingstone $1,209 Hunt Post #59 SGC 1378023-004: Zimmermann Post #120 SGC 4002213-001: Cicotte Hunt $11,000 Post #125 PSA 41975322: Baker $24,000 REA (Previously JSA) Post #100 |
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Just wanted to chime in and express my sympathy for those affected by this mess. If there's anyone who got one of these from a So.Cali seller and wants a threatening lawyer letter from a local lawyer, LMK and it will be gratis. I can't sue 'em for free but I can try to make them shit their pants for free. We have a pretty strict autograph law here that covers all CA based sellers and has been in effect for a few years. Might provide you with some recourse.
On an entirely separate note, one of the posts above asked whether collectors of other forms of prewar signed cards have noticed anything. Speaking as an Exhibit collector, the answer is "yes". There have been more signed Cobb, Ruth and Gehrig pieces in the last couple of years than I ever recall seeing before. Especially 48 HOF Cobb and mid-20s Ruth and Gehrig. Come to think of it, i don't think I ever saw a Ruth or Gehrig single signed piece earlier than a few years ago. |
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Sam Crawford Sam Crawford Elmer Flick Rube Marquard |
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Is anybody else having as much fun as I am!?
I have to say the response of this community has made the kick in the teeth a lot easier to manage. So, thanks everybody for that! |
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Another one...
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A buddy of mine on Facebook did some great detective work on this one. I bought this very recently from T206collector. Despite probably having one of his worst days in awhile, he is a total stand-up guy and has already refunded me.
Card originally sold here in July:http://auction.aacsautographs.com/it...QFSUPRZEaFHwKA Then sold to T206collector here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LARRY-DOYLE...-/263825275600 |
I remember looking at a T206 Livingstone American Beauty 350 that was signed on the reverse this past summer at the National.
It's a shot in the dark, but did anyone happen to grab a picture of it by chance? |
Hmmm...the doctor/Forger attempted to change the appearance of the card by adding creases/damage before forging the autograph...good thing these cards are like fingerprints.
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Possible 2nd, unrelated forger? |
I submitted the Baker along with around 30 of my most valuable cards at the Chicago Sun Times show. The other t206s that were mentioned earlier were part of that submission.
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I hope there's a Wagner auto out there sometime in the near future.
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Back and to the left. |
I appreciate it. That’s how I interpreted your post. I just wanted to provide that additional information for anyone who was interested.
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I’m not involved in T206 autos and am still pretty new to the forum. But it’s pretty clear that these third party graders do absolutely no real forensic analysis about these signed cards if board members can identify forgeries within hours.
In all seriousness, some of the guys here who are most adept at this should start their own grading service. After reading this great work, I do think that would restore confidence. I’m getting nervous about my modern autos... |
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This was a great, although very sad, read. Just glad this site continues to prove over and over again, that if a person wants to know something, this is the site for it. Great detective work everyone! :) |
As soon as somebody offers up a 5 or 10K cash reward, somebody will snitch.
Its just a matter of time. In the mean time. I got my popcorn and my goobers. I love this movie :cool: |
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Please forward him $250. |
Add Barbeau To The List
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Unfortunately this one from the latest Hunt Auction also belongs on the list.
before: sold unsigned on eBay by SG713 Nov 20, 2016 for $22.92, Cardtarget Link http://www.cardtarget.com/cards/160935 after:https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...162&lot_num=10 |
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Nice piece by Rich Mueller at SCD covering this evolving nightmare.... er, story. Thanks Rich! I appreciate your broadening the audience for this fraud.
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ed-t206-story/ |
Nice Chris, just found that one as well. So far I cant find a non signed version of yours Paul.
Unfortunately they are even faking back damage now. https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...162&lot_num=10 https://i.imgur.com/PDh5Uuk.jpg |
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Rich does a great wrap and analysis of the events to date, well done! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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At what point do people finally lose confidence in these authentication services for autographs?
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at least 5 years ago?
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I bought 9 signed T206 cards between 2006 and 2008 including several from the Pennsylvania find. I no longer actively collect and sold them a few years ago. My fear is that even legit signed T206 cards have lost significant value. For those damaged I would insist that your TPG add a graded date to the flip to help mitigate any value loss. Pre-2015 signed cards would be presumably unaffected and this service should be without charge. The Morrey and Pennsylvania collections should have additional provenance on the flip.
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I think this is your Murray. Do you have a back scan. Mar 5, 2015
https://i.imgur.com/YXjCtvg.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/NEdGcqS.jpg https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4870/...9cce7e1b_b.jpg |
Huh?
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Hahahahahha! Peace, Mike |
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Thanks again for all the hard work everybody. |
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Found a post of mine from October 2015, which is very hard for me to read. But you can see my surprise about the onslaught of new signed T206 cards to hit the hobby. I mention and cite a Carrigan from Clean Sweep that ought to be looked at as well. So sad. I was so excited at the time.
Edited to note: the Speaker has been known to the hobby for over a decade and should not be tarred by the fact that it came up for sale at this time. Quote:
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Do you have a larger scan of the Carrigan Paul.
I think we will find out who the culprit is soon. I think I know but I would have to be 100% sure before I would accuse someone of something like this. |
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Sad stuff indeed
Just getting caught up with all this and its not my area of collecting but it is extremely maddening and troubling on two fronts...
1) The Forger(s) ~ clearly someone has made a lot of money on creating these.I'm actually quite surprised in our relatively small world they have yet to be unmasked. 2) The Authenticators ~ if they can't tell an autograph was done within the last year or two for someone who passed away decades ago that is quite troubling. I thought in addition to studying the flow, style etc of the signature, they were able to tell some age of the writing (ie. like a trimmed card where there is distinctive tells of different aged paper), guess I was wrong. This will surely throw this side of the business back for years, to miss this many examples in such a relatively short period of time truly shows they really have no clue about what is real and what is fake. Can't think of too many other business where you can be completely wrong that many times and wouldn't affect your long term success (except maybe meteorology). Very sad times... |
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To miss this many examples in such a relatively short period of time truly shows they really have no clue about what is real and what is fake.
This about sums up everything. |
Can someone make public the names of these thieves?
The auction houses involved know exactly who got paid for these forgeries. By now they know with very high confidence who is guilty here.
They need to be outed. These swindlers need to be made public. |
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Here are mine...
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Very troubling issue. I love baseball and history... signed vintage cards are the perfect intersection of the two. I'm impressed by how members of this group have unraveled it and I hope whoever is behind it is brought to justice for the sake of the hobby.
Here is my collection. I believe both Doyles and the Snodgrass are from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh find, and perhaps the McBride too... in case anyone can help shed light on their authenticity. |
anyone remember the name of the American Greed guy who has posted here? Maybe they'd like to get in on the ground floor of a story instead of reporting on it years later. Would also ratchet up interest, possibly in law enforcement circles.
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Apologies for the image orientation... I'm new to posting images on this group so not sure how they ended up sideways, they didn't look that way when being uploaded.
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Joe - those are great signed T206 cards. All but the Marquard is from the 2007 Pittsburgh Find, and I remain confident are authentic.
The Marquard is actually from an eBay auction of four signed Marquards in 2004. I was the one that had the card authenticated by JSA/SGC, and I still have two others from that lot of four. They were my first four signed T206 cards ever to grace my collection. I can't see the serial numbers on yours clearly, but based on mine I'd guess 9005220-001 or 003. Here are mine -- you won't find them on Worthpoint or Cardtarget, unless they go back to 2004, and in such instance you'll find only the signed versions! <img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8276/29461322322_8c9d5ec1ba_b.jpg" width="468" height="763" alt="Marquard At Sides SGC 20 Auto"></a> <img src="https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/29571015365_ab44fcbf9b_b.jpg" width="478" height="763" alt="Marquard Portrait SGC 30 Auto"></a> |
That's a relief to hear! Thanks. Leon is trying to help me upload better images and also get the orientation right, so hopefully that happens soon. Sorry for being such a rookie.
You're right on my Marquard... the last 3 digits of the serial are 003 |
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Don't have any back pics or the cards with me. I'll need to dig them out and take fresh front and back pics this weekend.
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As this hobby has evolved, it has become incredibly dependent on third party graders and authenticators. Put something in a slab and it's just a heartbeat away from a world's record price. Bidders can't buy this stuff fast enough.
But we've known for a long time that countless altered, trimmed, and doctored cards find their way into slabs. And this has not dissuaded anybody from bidding on them, as long as the label tells them what they want to hear. Now with the realization that fake autographs are finding their way into plastic, the hobby has received yet another black eye. And I'm guessing what our fellow board members have dug up on this thread is only the tip of the iceberg. Something's gotta give. The hobby can't continue on this trajectory forever. TPG's have to find a way to build a better mousetrap. As it stands now, the mice are winning. At the very least, this is going to drive away a lot of collectors. As Corey said elsewhere, the role of provenance is going to play a bigger role in this industry down the road. |
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JoeRand's card(s).....
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Did JSA actually authenticate a facsimile Winston Churchill signature, as I have read?
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The right thing now is for the TPA and AH to get their evidence in order and go to the FBI. My guess is that might not happen though. They will not want the publicity which that would surely engender.
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I think this tarnishes JSA’s reputation pretty bad since they seem the link that had originally authenticated all of these before they were sent to PSA and SGC. Not that those TPGs are off the hook either.
But this really makes you think what other autos besides t206 did JSA miss? Chances are good the forger didn’t start out forging t206 autos until a few years ago when he or she realized the prices autograph t206s were going for. I’m sure there may be hundreds if not thousands of card autographs from after the war that were forged before or during his or hers t206 forgeries. Think Clementes, Williams, Mays, Gehrig, Ruth, you name it. To me, no era is safe. Especially if JSA clearly doesn’t do any real hard forensic work. I’m assuming they just reference a few authentic autographs in their database and compare them and give them a thumbs up. That may have been a beneficial service before the internet but nowadays you can look up any autograph online and with just a little penmanship practice pass JSA’s and the TPG test. |
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The Snodgrass, Would have to have been signed 1909 in very late 1909 if its legit.
https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/i...53b643c083.jpg |
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What is the running count of these cards authenticated by:
1. JSA (either by LOA or in SGC slab before “SGC Authentic”) 2. SGC (their own autograph service “SGC Authentic”) 3. PSA/DNA 4. BAS How many total cards have been definitively photo matched? The number identified is climbing by the hour it seems. Great detective work, looking forward to when the culprit has been identified. I’m very curious at how the auction houses and TPA’s publicly respond to this (whether most address it at all). This is certainly making the rounds in the word of mouth press for autograph collectors. |
I didn't think it was actually signed in 1909... I just thought Snodgrass put the year he played there on the card whenever he signed it.
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I havent had my morning coffee yet, him signing when he played makes way more sense :D |
TPG question
I haven't dealt with PSA or SGC or JSA regarding autographs. My question is: Say I submitted one of these T206's to JSA and it came back authentic. If I then send it to PSA or SGC with the JSA authentication to slab it, do they just slab it because JSA authenticated it? Do they have someone else render an opinion? Just how heavily is the JSA stamp of approval relied upon by auction houses? Considering the flowery language used in auction catalogs, I'm assuming that as soon as they see the JSA cert, they deem it good. If SGC returned the Marquard as fake, which is how this all started, who at SGC deemed it fake? Do they have an in-house person do this? At the very least, it sounds like that individual is worth more than JSA. For the record, I have zero financial interest in what is unfolding. Have never bought or sold any vintage autographed cards. Excellent work by these board members though. Also, if I want to slab my own autograph, do I just send it in?
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I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I am one so. I've been to card shows since the 80's. 2 of my friends owned card shops from the 80's to the mid 90's. I can count on 2 fingers the amount of signed T206's I saw from 1000's of old cards. Now every auction recently you have your pick of old timers on every brand of card. Put your order in and boom it's signed. This huge signed card business was non existent, I mean zero, zero, zero interest because there just weren't enough out there. No one, not buyers, PSA, SGC, JSA questioned all this signed cards? No one? So since business was good they just kept making them. Sorry JMO.
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Probably can enlarge this
And its mine |
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