Originally Posted by 111gecko (Post 1886701)

This is awful. No refund from Brent; just having him send the card back to him and he sends it to PSA.
PSA has 2 choices: 1) admit they missed the altered card and are stuck with a $ issue, or 2) say they can’t find any alterations and send it back to Brent as good.
Brent is basically out of it?..

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886705)

I believe he goes after any size fish. I am a small fish and he has bought 6 cards from me between 12/2006 and 11/2018. I don't know what he did with those cards but from what I've been reading the past few weeks, I can imagine.

I have kept records of every card that I've sold in 15 years, so I did a search on eBay for the most recent card that he bought from me and have noticed that his userid was changed on 6/4. Originally, it was whitman111 but it now appears to be ricky-leo.

BTW, the name of the purchaser of my card was Gary Moser. I believe that we are talking about the same guy. If not, then ignore what I said.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886705)

I believe he goes after any size fish. I am a small fish and he has bought 6 cards from me between 12/2006 and 11/2018. I don't know what he did with those cards but from what I've been reading the past few weeks, I can imagine.

I have kept records of every card that I've sold in 15 years, so I did a search on eBay for the most recent card that he bought from me and have noticed that his userid was changed on 6/4. Originally, it was whitman111 but it now appears to be ricky-leo.

BTW, the name of the purchaser of my card was Gary Moser. I believe that we are talking about the same guy. If not, then ignore what I said.

Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 1886706)

Exactly the same guy. You should read more threads. Especially the hundred page ones over on Blowout. If you have "before" pictures of the cards you sold him, please post them on this board.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 (Post 1886708)

Howard, can you teach me how to check to see if he bought from me? Did you do some sort of Paypal search?

Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 1886713)

Don't see any Lipon cards here, yet.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

Thanks for providing it.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886721)

Doesn't mean that there isn't any. Maybe he kept it for his own collection or perhaps he botched the alteration.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886724)

That list is very very very partial. Anyone who thinks that list is somehow complete should take the time to understand what it is, and isn't.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886727)

I agree with you. Every time I check the board, a new item has been discovered. Just the tip of the iceberg.

I went to look at Moser's feedback just to see what he's been up to. But, of course his feedback is private so you cannot see what he is currently doing. It's almost as though eBay is alright with all of this. They make it so easy for Buyers to cover their tracks.

I am confident that our fellow members here and over at BO will piece this all together.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886727)

I agree with you. Every time I check the board, a new item has been discovered. Just the tip of the iceberg.

I went to look at Moser's feedback just to see what he's been up to. But, of course his feedback is private so you cannot see what he is currently doing. It's almost as though eBay is alright with all of this. They make it so easy for Buyers to cover their tracks.

I am confident that our fellow members here and over at BO will piece this all together.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886729)

The frustrating part to me is PSA knows every card he and his fellow card doctors have submitted since day 1, but leave us to try to unravel this mess.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886643)

It's like PEDs, the masking technology is ahead of the detection effort.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886732)

And the crime continues as we all sit here waiting to see what happens.

Originally Posted by UFFDAH (Post 1766736)

For the record I was the winning bidder. I am not stupid nor naïve. I graduated from college Cum Laude and own/run a multi-million $ company that sells into major retailers across the USA. I collected as a kid in the early 80's and my mom would take me to cards shows when Larry Fritsch had all the goodies. I am a meat and potatoes kind of guy that knows how to outfox and trap coyotes and I enjoy matching wits and killing big Whitetail Bucks who have a superior sense of sight and smell.

I bought the card because I simply love the fact that it is a HOF Musial and a fantastic image of him and that it is an extraordinary 66 year old example that made it through all the pitfalls from antiquated manufacturing/distribution and dodged the bullets of kid handling, bike spokes, tape, thumb tacks, and the list goes on to become a PSA 10.

I'm not a flipper, set builder, registry collector, or a Flip Chaser.

My collection consists of mostly Rookies but also some special non-Rookies plus vintage unopened. Baseball, Football, Basketball and Hockey. And a few non-sports. I respect all cards from PSA 1 to PSA 10 and respect all collectors.


This is my very first and only Musial and have been patiently waiting for a special one for a number of years since I got back into collecting. I may not own another Musial.

I may or may not sell my valuable collection some day. Hopefully some of the extra special one's like the Musial will be passed down.

All in all I really like and appreciate the card not only because it is Musial but because of all its attributes and yes for sure because it is a PSA 10.

Do I wish I could have got it for less?? Heck yeah, but I'd be kicking myself today if I put a top bid in of $15K.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 1886734)

fyp

Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1766617)

i don't care how much and how you earned your hard earned money ...spending 28K on a card like that is just plain stupid! And I'll say it again and again and again!

Originally Posted by Anish (Post 1886738)

I guess being smarter than a coyote or deer doesn’t make you smart enough to detect a scam

Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1886741)

Once upon a time, someone bought a Wagner for around that figure, and someone said the same thing.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886737)

Changing his ID and taking his feedback private are not the actions of a man who intends to stop. I would imagine he has cards to sell in the pipeline but it won't be hard to find someone else to take them, particularly if he didn't buy them from Brent pre-alteration. Let's not forget many of these cards he bought raw, and are untraceable unless PSA divulges certs.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886745)

I don't even want to think about how many raw cards were involved. He bought 6 cards from me. 3 raw and 3 graded. He won't be buying anymore from me. I blocked him under his previous user name and his current user name.
One thing that I never thought about. If I block a buyer and he then changes his username, will he still be blocked under his new name. Or, is this just a way to slip between the cracks?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886744)

And they were right, look where Bill (he paid 25, right?) ended up.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886678)

He said, I think, that he also discussed how high to bid with Brent. Ugh.

My own cynical prior comment:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it's just me, but if I'm looking for an opinion on what to pay for a card, I am likely to ask someone other than the seller.
__________________
Stuff trumps all in this fraud and ostrich hobby.

Originally Posted by UFFDAH (Post 1766830)

My confidence lies in PSA and PWCC who have earned my and many other collectors trust. I review most of my PWCC card targets including the Musial with Brent before I pull the trigger with a bid and have the utmost trust in his opinion. My best bump of a PWCC purchase is a 58' Jim Brown from an 8 to an 8.5 so my confidence and trust is VERY HIGH.

Peter - sellers like Brent, Steve Hart and some others are straight shooters. They build successful businesses because they are trustworthy. No different than my company taking care of our customers/consumers because we stand behind our product, you have to for repeat long term business. Brent does not hesitate to tell me to pass on one of his auction cards if he feels I should be patient and wait for a little stronger example knowing my goals and tastes. Sometimes my itchy trigger does not want to listen to him but I almost always do.

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1886757)

So it's being returned?

Where does it eventually end up?
With PWCC?
With PSA?
With the card doctor?

If it simply all gets returned, I believe it will simply either get reslabbed after a crackout still a 10 but with a new cert number. Or gets a slight ding, and gets reslabbed as a 9 again with a new number, and we start all over again.

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469 (Post 1886759)

The whole level of fraud and deception bestowed upon us by a few players is sickening.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1886768)

It’s not just a few players. It’s hundreds of crooks in this hobby, some big, some not so big, big there’s fraud in every corner of it.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1764501)

Just checked my lowly 7 and yeah there is a bit of a rough cut on the right side.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1886768)

It’s not just a few players. It’s hundreds of crooks in this hobby, some big, some not so big, big there’s fraud in every corner of it.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1886771)

Brent Mastro can get that up to a 8 or 9 for you. Give him a call.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886773)

I haven't spoken with the lad since two or three years ago when he assured me Gary had pretty much retired. I think I'll leave it at that, thank you.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1886777)

LOL:D:D:D He was just getting started then...Started on his 15th year of trimming 4,000 cards a year for old Brenty Mastro.

Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1886710)

I think I read most of the posts over the past few weeks. I have become addicted to this story.

Here is a link to the last card that he purchased from me.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/13285295926...m=132852959261

Originally Posted by T205 GB (Post 1886774)

Hey guys. Someone told me a dead horse beating was going on. Did I miss it or do I have some time to get a few licks in?

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1886786)

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886788)

Risk reward. When you are making that much money you can take risks here and there for huge upside. If it goes south, a few K down the drain, so what.

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1886786)

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

Originally Posted by Bram99 (Post 1886790)

I refuse to believe that someone would take the chance to have the card cracked out, found to be altered, and turn from a "9" to "authentic" with the corresponding loss in more than 90% of it's value. The poster is dead accurate here. This is the best sign I have seen yet that this was not just Moser/PWCC but that there had to be a third actor of some kind.

Originally Posted by Bram99 (Post 1886790)

I refuse to believe that someone would take the chance to have the card cracked out, found to be altered, and turn from a "9" to "authentic" with the corresponding loss in more than 90% of it's value. The poster is dead accurate here. This is the best sign I have seen yet that this was not just Moser/PWCC but that there had to be a third actor of some kind.

Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1886796)

Yes. Coupled with the comment someone else made, that politics might be involved with getting 10s. Way too much downside to try this in a "normal" way....

But I wonder what the mechanics could be, to see a card like this shepherded through the system end to end. That part still seems implausible.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886797)

Downside only exists relative to upside. You guys are not seeing how this man operates.

Originally Posted by Dpeck100 (Post 1886798)

You are correct Peter.

I have thrown 3k at a trade that had two days until the option expired. A ticking time bomb. He clearly had asymmetric risk here. It appears more that he has confidence in his work and isn't concerned about getting rendered with the AUTH grade or it staying there.

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1886802)

I'm going with the nobody risks a 9 to try and get a 10. I don't think there is a single collector/submitter who can even tell you what the difference is. To me the only way you get a 10 is if the grader feels like giving it a 10. I smell something fishy too.

You might risk a 5 to get a 6, or a 6 to get an 8, because each of those cards has a flaw that can be improved. But a 9 is flawless. If you had a 9 and a magic wand to change it, what would you even attempt to do to make it better?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886803)

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1886806)

1390 of these things have been graded, and until this one, zero achieved a 10. I can see risking $3k for a possible $25k - I understand the concept - but the odds would have to be a little better to make it a good play. Here we're talking about trying to achieve a grade that had never been given for this card in the history of PSA.

I generally agree, it looks like what appears to have happened, happened. But I base that on not being able to see how any grading manipulation could have taken this card through the process, not on the smartness of the play.

Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1886741)

Once upon a time, someone bought a Wagner for around that figure, and someone said the same thing.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886810)

If he had an inside grader at PSA, he could make an incredible fortune just doing reviews, he wouldn't have to alter cards at all. He obviously has a tremendous eye, and he is an expert at 52 Bowmans by reputation, he probably saw one he thought might finally be the one and went with the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886803)

Look what he DID do in this case, why speculate? There are before and after pics on BO. I give up, Dave and I seem to be the only ones posting who understand this in context.

Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1886817)

I just looked at the pictures on BO again, and the before and after look identical. Can anybody discern what was done to the 9 to improve it? My eyes aren't perfect, but they look the same to me.

Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 1886820)

Colored print dot on front left border white.
Colored some of the red line on shoulder red to fill gaps.
Colored the whitish spot on the sleeve blue to match.
Colored the gap in the bottom right of the A on back in black to hide.

As well as, the PSA 9 might have also been altered prior to because it doesn't have either left or right edge with a rough cut, which would seem to indicate it was trimmed or sheet cut.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1886826)

The personal insults and piling on the guy who spent close to 30k on what appears to be an altered card should have no place on this site.

The lack of understanding on why someone would gamble to turn a 3k card into a 25 to 30k card if he knows how to do so is hard for me to believe. Have you guys never placed a bet before? He only has to make it work 1 time in 8 for this to pay off.

Is it certain the card was recolored? It's hard for me to tell from the scans but perhaps the spots in question were simply removed.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886830)

If it bumped cert would be the same, no?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886830)

If it bumped cert would be the same, no?

Originally Posted by nolemmings (Post 1886786)

Back to the Musial, this is why I am really suspicious of PSA's involvement. It seems to me incredibly unlikely that someone would take a PSA 9 of a vintage superstar and doctor it in "hopes" of a 10, thereby risking discovery of the alteration by the TPG and a tanking in value. And who knows if you get the 10 even if you're not caught, that grade being so subjective. IMO, the only way you take that chance is if you are cock-sure you are going to beat the grader or if you somehow know that you will.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 1886842)

+1. Who the hell has balls big enough to take a 9 of a fairly big time card/player and alter it hoping for a 10. Even if he knew for sure that you could successfully make all the alterations without detection, what makes him think he wood get a 10 when there none previous. HUGE balls or the fix was in from the getgo. This one seems to indicate the latter

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1886844)

It takes no balls at all for someone with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cards and probably millions in the bank to take a gamble on a 3K card, with a huge upside. You can't see that?

Originally Posted by Bicem (Post 1886850)

Exactly, plus if it comes back a 9 he's lost nothing.