Umm, yeah, you've proven that's not true in some of our gun debates. :rolleyes:

I am not going to turn this into a second amendment debate (you can PM me if you want).

The fact is that there are entire government entities that are systematically violating the fourth amendment rights of American citizens. You asked me how African Americans are being discriminated against, I responded with conclusive evidence that answers this question for you. Do you believe African Americans are not discriminated against by the Baltimore PD?

What I find sickening and appalling are the DOJ crime statistics committed by blacks:

62% of robberies
57% of murders
45% of assaults

Yet they only make up 13% of the population. Let's just both agree to be sickened and appalled and end this, deal?

Fair enough David. As always, this was a very interesting discussion. Happy collecting :cool:

Thank you! You too, Jason.

That's exactly what you said though. Maybe you don't understand the words you used or the context you used them in? Blacks commit more crimes so pay more attention to blacks than anyone else based solely on skin color. Profiling is by definition based on stereotype and assumption and not facts, so if in your mind that can ever be justified you're clearly part of the problem.

Reading through this thread makes me more uncomfortable than any of these mentioned sporting gestures ever would.

To me this just shows how increasingly polar our country has become. This is definitely a worthy conversation topic, but within this thread it doesn't seem to matter how reasonably an argument is made (by either side), it's met with total rigidity, and what looks like a lot of pent up anger.

I don't have the want, nor the energy to really engage in the discussion here, especially since no one is changing their opinions anytime soon, but will say its tone disheartens me to say the least. I think in a lot of ways we're in a period of regression, and overall empathy is on short supply.

(ADDING-- Never been a Kaep fan but if he or others want to use their platform to make a statement, while also facing the possible repercussions, more power to them. If you love something but don't agree, you don't "leave it", you work toward fixing it)

just to add - there are more whites killed by police than blacks, and its rarely ever talked about. Yes there are more % of whites in the usa so that souldnt be expected.

heres a little article on it from a liberal paper - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ut-minority-d/

you rarely here about these whites killed by cops though - people need to wake up and take responsibility for their own actions

after 168 posts id just like to remind everyone a part of the 1st post in this thread - "Maybe just a vote and no posts so we dont get too heated up!"

:D

Yes, but the whites actually did what they were told when ordered and didn't resist. Therefore they don't get shot as often. It goes back to respect and parenting.

This is the part that sickens me! Yet Black Lives Matter!! (only when a white cop shoots a black criminal however). It is like the wild, wild, west in some cites (Chicago), yet there is no outrage over those deaths.

You’re making it only about skin color though, just to push your agenda. I’m saying profile groups based on their common characteristics. If it happens to be race, so be it. Or religion, or sexuality, or gender or whatever. Authorities profile based on the description of the ones committing the crimes and the location in which the crimes are committed. So, if a certain group of people are committing most of the crime, doesn’t it make sense to profile them?

Do you really think the authorities should be hanging around bingo halls profiling little old ladies as terrorism suspects, or should they be looking at radicalized Muslims? Do you think the authorities should be investigating white collar crime in the ghetto, or should they be looking on Wall Street? If you want to set up a prostitution sting, are you going to target male or female johns?

Profiling is just a fact of life. I don’t see anything wrong with that, I’m glad it happens! You don’t like it? Fine, I have a solution. Instead of complaining about the problem, do something about the crime. When the crime statistics get more proportionate with race statistics, that’s when you’ll see change. If it were white people committing most of the crime, white people should be profiled more often that other races. Same for Hispanics, Asians, or whoever.

Sound like a violation of Constitutional rights? Maybe so, but you lefties have no problem at all trampling all over the 2nd Amendment. How do you choose which part of the Constitution you want to uphold and what part of the Constitution you want to repeal or change?

Does all this sound racist to you? Sorry, it isn’t meant to be, it’s just a fact of life. But if it does, then I’ll change my stance on the matter. Forget skin color. Most of the crimes are committed by brown eyed males. Let’s profile brown eyed males instead of blacks. Better? Because like I already said before, you profile based on common characteristics. But it just sounds so much better for your leftist agenda when you make it about race though, right?

I'll close with this. If you're a black male, err, I mean brown eyed male in this country, your chances of killing a police officer are more likely than being killed by a police officer. Who is standing up (or in this case sitting down) for them?

I haven't posted in over a year, but after slogging through this thread I felt compelled to say something. And it was ltclarkes post at #167 that got me to do so. Here's what I take away from reading this thread: Everybody is shouting, and nobody is listening.

I've been saying for awhile now that I think America is very close to a civil war. No, not like the one from the 1860's- we won't see cannon fire or rifles fitted with bayonets- but we are pretty much in an ideological one. I am really afraid that after the election in two months, the country is going to explode. And I admit I have absolutely no idea how it can be prevented.

To me the worst problem in America now is nobody is willing to listen to or even consider an opposing point of view. Nobody is willing to even concede that the other guy might be making a good point because it is considered capitulating. You're a loser if you admit the other guy may be right. And the rhetoric and the venom seems to be getting worse by the day.

Here is something I will leave you with: if the other guy has an opinion that differs from yours, calling him an idiot is not cool. You are not solving the problem, but becoming part of it. I really worry for the future of this country.

And I won't be posting again, so please excuse me if I don't answer a post sent my way. Thanks for listening.

Not directed at you Barry, but this probably fits here best. Many who are paying attention believe that is the whole point, to foment that discontent. Taken in historical context, the black shootings by police officers are WAY down from 40 years ago.

http://www.cjcj.org/news/8113

I would have been a lot more of an impactful statement had it been made when he was a relevant player.

I think african americans (non muslim) feel safest from being profiled when they board a airplane. None will given a second look as they could be in a car with a taillight out. Now a wierd white guy with glasses and trench coat with heavy shoes, lets strip search that guy.

Ok now a few whitish muslim guys on the plane, lets strip search those guys since most hijackers/bombers have been those guys. I know many whites would be relieved if the whole plane was full of inner city chicago street kids on their way to some school event versus a bunch of middle aged white guys or non black clearly practicing muslims or very white poeple that looked like they have lived off the grid for 10 years. Those few white passengers would be begging to sit in between two african americans..

I think the average white american would gladly pay an extra carry on fee (why do they charge for carry ons now by the way) to be guaranteed to be on a plane with all black (hijack safe) americans.

Anyway, just having fun with stereotyping. Just having fun..

" I hope life is not just a big joke, because I don't get it".... Jack Handey

When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.” ....George Carlin

This probably deserved a thread of its own...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...t-america.html

Ben Watson, you are a true American hero. Colin Kaepernick, you are scum that's about as relevant in the NFL as Ryan Leaf.

God bless you, Ben, and hope you make a full recovery and are back on the field soon.

you're right barry. people tend to watch the news channel that aligns with their viewpoint, they follow and read people online that reinforces their beliefs. if you don't like something or someone you unfollow it, so your worldview intake only strengthen what you believe in and it hardens over time. even tho the world is shrinking with internet and social media lines are being drawn and viewpoints are extremely divisive.

I completely agree with the news pushing their own agenda. It is amazing how many things that are reported in our news about other countries is 100% BS.

I am not going to attempt to argue one point or another, but I thought I would share the thoughts of a coworker of mine. She is a widowed black mother of 4 sons with the youngest just having gone to college. She lives and raised her boys in Ferguson, MO.

She went on rant after rant during the Ferguson riots. But it wasn't an anti-police/pro-riot stance as some would make you believe, it was the exact opposite. Yet her side of the story wasn't the one the news would cover. She would constantly said that if there was any racism in the cops in Ferguson she would have known it. Yet her sons were never pulled over for something that wasn't deserved (one son ran from the cops when he realized he didn't have his ID). She hated that Michael Brown was considered anything but a "thug" stating him and his whole family were trouble in the community.

The stuff she has said would make a white man seem racist if they said it. Her major point, though, was that it is no longer a skin color issue. She believes that it is a social issue. That a black guy that doesn't look like a "thug" and treats people respectful will be treated right. A white guy that acts like a "thug" and disrespects is going to be treated the same as the black guy acting the same way.

I just thought I would share her thoughts since she has a perspective that most on this board don't have.

interesting perspective but the Doctor that treated all of those police officers that were shot in dallas was black and he said when he doesnt wear the doctors coat and drives on the street he is pulled over or is stopped when walking on the street and he doesnt dress like a thug...we can all point to examples for anything

Interesting in an article about him being a rare black doctor
The lack of black male doctors is bad for patients. White doctors undertreat the pain of black patients, studies have shown. And research by the University of Virginia found that white medical students had "fantastical" beliefs about the bodies of blacks. Half of the white medical students surveyed thought that blacks had less sensitive nerve endings and that their blood clotted more quickly than the blood of a white person.

Please inform your coworker that the Department of Justice found the Ferguson Police Department and it's court system to be racially bias toward African Americans. That was a government finding, not an opinion:

Even relatively routine misconduct by Ferguson police officers can have significant consequences for the people whose rights are violated. For example, in the summer of 2012, a 32-year-old African-American man sat in his car cooling off after playing basketball in a Ferguson public park. An officer pulled up behind the man’s car, blocking him in, and demanded the man’s Social Security number and identification. Without any cause, the officer accused the man of being a pedophile, referring to the presence of children in the park, and ordered the man out of his car for a pat-down, although the officer had no reason to believe the man was armed. The officer also asked to search the man’s car. The man objected, citing his constitutional rights. In response, the officer arrested the man, reportedly at gunpoint, charging him with eight violations of Ferguson’s municipal code. One charge, Making a False Declaration, was for initially providing the short form of his first name (e.g., “Mike” instead of “Michael”), and an address which, although legitimate, was different from the one on his driver’s license. Another charge was for not wearing a seat belt, even though he was seated in a parked car. The officer also charged the man both with having an expired operator’s license, and with having no operator’s license in his possession. The man told us that, because of these charges, he lost his job as a contractor with the federal government that he had held for years.

This the same DOJ that up until recently was led by AG Eric Holder, who he himself said that white people can't be victims of racial injustice. Imagine that.

LOL! Got 'em!!!!!!!

No, this is the same DOJ that covered up voter intimidation, ran Fast and Furious, was run by an AG that lied under oath, interfered with local non-partisan elections*, objected to the release of the Michael Brown robbery video, and continues to ignore FIOA requests. This is the DOJ we should take at face value and trust in. :rolleyes:

* "The Justice Department’s ruling, which affects races for City Council and mayor, went so far as to say partisan elections are needed so that black voters can elect their “candidates of choice” - identified by the department as those who are Democrats and almost exclusively black."

My post has nothing to do with the original topic.
I'm just happy to see that Barry is OK. I miss your posts, as you are one of my favorite members on Net54, although we have never talked, emailed or messaged each other. I always found your contributions to be intelligent, articulate, funny and informative. You helped make this an enjoyable forum to visit, I can't say it's all that enjoyable anymore.

Thanks Barry, I wish you well.

The spelling and grammar has also spiraled down to an all time low in your absence!!

Take care
Mike

OK, carry on with the debate.

+1

So, let's connect the dots. The head of the DOJ is the Attorney General. Eric Holder was the former Attorney General. The AG reports directly to...we'll, I won't say it because I don't want to be accused of getting political, but we all know who he reports to. Eric Holder's boss (wink, wink) promised a transparent administration, did he not? Fast and Furious wasn't very transparent, was it? Ignoring Freedom of Information Act requests isn't very transparent, is it? I gotta agree with you. We shouldn't take anything at face value or trust anything the DOJ has to say, especially some flawed bias report.

This entire thread has been political, no?

Frankly, I am surprised it has not yet been locked.

It's not been locked because there really is no need to. No one has gotten really ugly. To lock a thread reeks of censorship. Leon, I don't believe, is a fan of censorship. The thread is in the proper location on the board, and everyone is just debating. That is my two cents on things (for what it's worth).

Not locked, it needs to go POOF like the Nazi flag thread.

Ben,

I do not know about the Nazi flag thread to which you are referring.

As it pertains to Net54, to Leon's credit, he does not moderate this site like the folks on the other side of the street, so to speak.

Still, I remain surprised this thread is not yet locked. It is filled with political views, name calling, and vitriol.

As one prominent member once suggested, Net54 very well may have jumped the shark.

Best regards,

Eric Perry

A member was trying to sell a vintage Nazi Flag in the proper section with Leons approval. Then a few idiots had to make posts in the thread that had nothing to do with buying it or asking questions about it. Sadly that has become common place lately.

Not sure what happened that it went POOF though.

If it isn't enjoyable you should consider leaving. Why do something you don't enjoy? I never like to see people go but if they aren't happy then it is for the better.....imo

edited to add, on another subject, yes in one of the very few deletions of a thread the Nazi banner BST thread was deleted. It didn't offend me personally but since it did others it got deleted. Each situation is different and it is sometimes a fluid call. I make mistakes like anyone....but to me the drama has died down a little bit on the board lately. Probably just me though since some changes were made in membership. Whatever, I just want peace and happiness and less drama....that is all.

lastly I see no reason to lock the thread so far.....as I think I had mentioned many posts ago, if we can give our own point of view and try our best to not make it too political, we can discuss these things here.. but if it gets too politically toned (and it almost is up there, be careful) it will be put to bed..... Happy Collecting....

So you want me to tell an African American woman with 4 sons that live and have lived their entire lives in Ferguson. Some one that lived and breathed all of it through the eyes of a Ferguson resident with black skin, that she is wrong about what she encounters everyday because you read an article that said otherwise? I gave her perspective as someone living it, not a bias opinion based on political beliefs or anything else. As she said to me "if it was really that bad, I am sure with 4 black sons I would have heard something by now."

I know, as does she, what the DOJ report reads. Again her opinion is that it is more about the way the people conducted themselves rather than the color of their skin. I am sorry but as a white male I will not argue with a widowed black woman with 4 sons living through all this daily that she doesn't know what she is talking about and that she is being racially profiled.

Reading Packs's reply reminded me of the time in the 1970s at a meeting of the RMS Titanic Historical Society when Ruth Becker, who survived the sinking as a child, was addressing the attendees, and told them how she had witnessed Titanic break in two before sinking. Almost immediately, one of the Titanic "experts" seated next to her grabbed the microphone away from her and announced that she only thought she had seen the ship break in two; it had actually sunk intact, and Becker was mistaken. Becker grabbed the microphone back and told him "I was there". About ten years later, the wreck was discovered in two pieces.

It's actually not like that at all. You're placing scientific speculation against studied facts. My point was one person' anecdotal evidence does not trump a Department of Justice investigation and she may not be aware of the indignities experienced by the people around her, who live their own lives independent of her own. I didn't tell you to get into an argument with her either.

I also believe the DOJ is very, very racist at this point in time. Anything they say is suspect immediately, to me. Anything else and I think I get too political....This whole debate can sort of be summed up by asking all people to take accountability for their actions. If I do good it is my fault, if I do bad it is my fault. Everyone needs to live it....just my pre-tax, half cent of wisdom ....

I think you have to be living under a rock to assume the posting of a nazi flag wont elicit some comments that have nothing to do with buying the nazi flag.

To compare that posting with the sale of a baseball card as far as having the same b/s/t eitiquette is a bit of a stretch

I find it enlightening to hear her perspective as someone with no ulterior motive nor influence. I thought I would share this perspective with the understanding that it is all hearsay to anyone that I am sharing it with. I acknowledge that she only has one perspective. I also understand that you don't know her so you have to take what I am second hand reporting to you with a grain of salt. I just thought I would share this seldom heard voice from someone that has an opinion based off a life lived in the circumstances and not someone forming an opinion with an outside-looking-in perspective.

I can tell you, though, that she is not ignorant about her surroundings and any suggestions otherwise by me or anyone else will not lead to a peaceful back and forth conversation, hence my use of the word "argue".

Flags can get you in trouble, even a Flags Of The World ISIS trading card...bam :)

My sentiments on trying to provide "studied facts" as well as other items to consider can be summed up below:

I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.

2 comments
 

1) If you are interested in a coach's (and by extension the entire organizations) take on the National Anthem...watch the clip below from HBO's Hard Knocks about the LA Rams training camp. Way to go Coach Jeff Fisher...great example that (IMO) should be followed by all others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzwAWOXlbg

2) My Father in Law is a retired Police Officer and many of my good friends are PO's. One is a PO in the South Bronx in New York City and he works in a neighborhood that is almost 100% minority. So, all of the arrests, questionings etc. make it look like the PO's are racist.

Unless your family member is a PO or you are friendly with a PO you cannot even begin to understand how difficult the job is and how skewed the statistics are.

Jeff

Apparently so. Now the Gadsden Flag is considered racist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f89946075fac

Maybe they could shorten the list by telling us what's not racist instead of telling us what is racist? Just a thought.

http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/upl...5698434883.jpg

BTW, Leon, why is Packs still allowed to post w/o his full name? :confused:

+1...I was thinking the same thing.

Jeff

David.......my side is somewhere squarely in the middle but you brought up Ben Watson and I hadn't seen that info on him, and I'm thoroughly impressed with. In it, however, he makes the statement............

"Kaepernick's actions and similar actions by figures of the past and present are a vital part of our journey and a key component of the equation for social change and should be respected as such."


Assuming you saw that, although you likely don't agree with it. Eloquent words from Watson throughout that article. Thanks for linking it.

for those who dont follow hockey



u sit for the national anthem you sit for the game


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/0...al-anthem.html

Packs? You know the rules....

Legally right vs. Morally right
 

Hello, Tom. Actually, I did see that and I do agree with it. I voted #2 - Dont like what hes doing but hes got the right to do it.

He's within his legal right to do it. But just because it's legally right, doesn't mean it's morally right. You can go to Japan (or many European countries) and have legal consensual sex with a 14 year old girl if you want to. Does that make it morally right?

But, just because it's his legal right to do so doesn't mean that the team can't cut him for it. Again, I voted #2, but I think as a consequence he should be cut from the team. I can go to Colorado and smoke dope on my vacation. Perfectly legal. But my employer also has the legal right to piss test me when I get back and fire me for violating their drug policy.

I was reading an article this morning about some female soccer player that was also kneeling (or maybe it was sitting) for the national anthem. The opposing home team found a way around that. They played the national anthem before the players took the field, not giving her an opportunity to kneel. Hopefully all the NFL teams will do the same.

will be tough to do that. There would be countermeasures from the players as well. Cant imagine baseball for example with the players not being able to take part in the anthem

Play it in the locker room as it plays throughout the stadium. The players can choose to sit or stand.

My name is Frank I'm having a civil discussion with some posters and ignoring others who are calling for my name. I don't feel the need to engage those posters and will continue not to.

2 things:

1). It's your FULL name
2). Yes, it's been pretty civil, but you're also giving an opinion which still requires your FULL name

This matter is closed.

It's a shame that people who engage in online discussion/conversation don't have enough conviction in their beliefs to post their full name. Just my 2¢.

Jeff

Rules must not apply to packs. He must be repressed and therefore needs a special exclusion to the rules the rest of us follow. Amazing that a person spewing the crap he has been spewing would have the opinion he is above the rules. Lmfao.

Mark Medlin

Packs
 

Name should be out there like everyone else. Just my opinion though :)

At least Colin owned it.

Rules apply to everyone and that is why he is not posting anymore, The alternative is to have him edit out all of his comments, which I prefer not to ask him to do.

Colin is protesting the police's treatment of men of color. I am with David James on this one. He should be more angry at the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit. If that percentage was lower, I think the problem would diminish. So how about instead of protesting the police, how about protesting the criminals??? Now THERE is a novel idea!

He's protesting the treatment of the hundreds of thousands of American citizens who have committed no crime, yet have been arrested, beaten or even killed for it.

I think that's a cause we can all get behind.

Kapernick
 

What aggravates me about this whole situation is at my 13 year old daughters junior high volleyball game last night 2 girls from the team they were playing did not stand for the national anthem. One of the girls was white the other black I don't think these kids should be worried about this at this age. But thanks to Colin more young people are entering into to this anti-american mindset. Needless to say instead of enjoying my kids game I ending up thinking how screwed up our country has become. Sorry for the rant.

Thats awful.

sad, but true...myself, I think about how lucky we all are to live in such a great overall country and
while I try to remain positive looking toward the future, in many ways (and for many reasons) I'm
seeing a potential sh!tstorm on the horizon, and hoping I'm wrong.

JMO

DS

So who made you the arbiter of what's moral and what isn't? Just because you don't think it's morally right doesn't mean that it isn't morally right to Colin. You trying to force your morals on others? That's very un-American.

Wow! This statement is really something. Are you really trying to justify the murder of unarmed blacks and the harassment of blacks by police because of what you consider an "obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit"? Wow, just wow!

Again, I'm amazed. Voicing a concern about the treatment of a segment of the population is an "anti-american (sic) mindset." And by the way, what's with not capitalizing the "A" in "American?" A simple typo or is that some form of protest and you're being anti-American?

To all: just because a person doesn't think like you do doesn't make them anti-American nor does it mean they hate this country. In this case, Colin thinks blacks are being targeted by police and so he protested. You either agree with him that blacks are being targeted by police or you don't. That's all this should be about.

However, I must reiterate, I am really stunned, sickened, and saddened that some here actually agree with Colin that blacks are being targeted by the police but that it's justified by "the obscenely high crime rate that blacks commit."

Criticism of your country is healthy if done in a peaceful manner. Seems like their little protest did its job.

He says he's protesting racial injustice, but what has he really done for the black community? If my memory serves me correctly, wasn't he fined by the NFL for using racial slurs?

Oh the hypocrisy!

He donated $1,000,000 PLUS 100% of the proceeds from his jersey sales.

Either way, he is protesting the imprisonment, beating and murder of over one hundred thousand American citizens who did not commit a single crime.

A cause I'm sure every American can support.

Names
 

I have said far too much in here, out

Then when they make a pitching change a protesting player can sit for an extra long period of time etc...always a way to protest and not be against the rules..

Maybe you forgot this or this is not correct?

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/...fl-nflpa-49ers

The referee heard it (he threw the flag), Lamarr Houston confirmed to the Chicago Tribune that he said it, and the NFL fined him for it...which was upheld even after Kaepernick's appeal.

Maybe he's like Cher or Pele?

Actually a full name is required when giving an opinion of a person or company So just an opinion won't require a full name. That issue with that member is dead in this thread, carry on.

I strongly disagree. I believe he gave several opinions of people. Here's one. "Castile was stopped and murdered". The officer that stopped him has not been arrested, charged or convicted of murder. To call him a murderer is a very strong opinion.

Leon, look at post #25 and #26 in this thread. You made Derrick put his name in the post and he gave no opinion at all.

Packs has been allowed to post anonymously and make very controversial statements in many controversial threads - assault weapon ban thread, Redskins name change thread and more. I don't understand why he is allowed to continue to do so. Is he being protected for some reason?

It is over, move on. I assure you he will be more careful in the future if he doesn't want his full name disclosed. Go argue with some others please... He isn't being protected I just haven't enforced the rule as much as Maybe I needed too. So that is my fault...

Understood. I'll be more careful in the future as well.