Thanks everyone for the comments and support. I didn't think the thread would go this wild, I really didn't.

All I wanted to do is ALERT other collectors about this seller so the same thing doesn't happen to them.

Wow was I surprised to find out he already did it to many of you!

A while ago.... I sold an original traveling trunk that belong to William Wrigley Jr.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=210555

I sold the trunk for a fair offer within less than a day to a board member. Hours later, I received an email from an outside person(not on the board) who wanted the trunk badly (a vintage trunk collector) and knew the trunk had been sold. The outside person mention he would "make it worth it" and "not waste my time"....of course money had been exchanged by this time. So the trunk was technically sold, but still.. it was in my possession. I was tempted just to see how much more he was willing to buy it from me even though the deal was done. I called him listen to his offer, it was more..I stopped him and said. Sorry deal is done, before I got too tempted. I called the board member who bought it from me and mention there's a person who wants it badly, before I ship it..did you want to listen to his offer? I mention he could make a nice profit if he wanted. The board member decided he wanted to keep the trunk and to ship it to him.

I could of back out of the deal and made a bigger profit. I didn't. I pass that chance to the board member who purchased it from me and mention I would ship it to the other person if they made a deal to make it easier for them.

Ethics can be a bitch sometimes... but I honored the deal.

You're really late with the popcorn. The movie is over and everyone is discussing it. Move along unless you want to hear spoilers.

If we believe this statement, it precludes the possibility that Dan will sell (or has sold) this card to another person.

Part of me hopes Eric will agree to this, just to see if Dan follows through.

Here is Dan's latest PM... Now he was going to honor the deal but then realized there was no incentive to do so... How about "honor", "honesty", I could think of a lot of incentive....


"Many of you? C'mon Eric, lets not go overboard here. Take your money and find yourself a new Mantle, it really isn't that hard to do. Btw, I was literally seconds away from getting in touch with you and honoring the deal this morning until I read through the thread and realized there was absolutely zero incentive for me to do so. I am truly sorry things went down the way they did, but it's not the end of the world for either of us...even if I never make another deal on this board which is quite possible. "

I never said I condoned anyone backing out of a deal. In, and of itself, that is not a bannable offense to me. But now, with that last statement of Dan's (hi Dan), and a bit of irony, he is no longer allowed on our BST......there ya' go. There was no incentive not to ban him from there....

Dan- nothing personal...

L

I believe someone said it somewhere in the thread. Karma...;);)

Mantle
 

Maybe this could solve Cozmo's problems...

Sorry for everyone's pain, but I'm ready for this thread to be locked. Seller should have never offered and agreed to sell the card and then recant the offer. Buyer was reckless to sell the card he had in hand without receiving the new one…it's not like the Mick was going to have a bad off season. There's plenty of fault and plenty of opinions and I think they've all been expressed at this point.

Quote of the year: I was literally seconds away from ....... honoring the deal this morning....

Shouldn't that be a "given" from the start??

Here is Dan's PM to me a few minutes ago....


"I'm already banned from BST so you got what you wanted. I'll be curled up in a fetal position with my Mantle sobbing it out...lol"


I hope nobody deals with this guy ever again.

Clearly...

i call that 'seconds away' comments instead of 'bargain hunters' like the tv show i call that 'excuse hunters'


i hear that with rentors all the time....'i was just about to pay rent' but then 'i heard you told my neighbor i owe rent' and thats not fair..so now i wont pay...

the fact is if you really are about to pay rent ..or about to honor the deal then you do it.....no reason to bring up excuses....if the deal or the rent was paid on time as agreed then more time would not have passed for more 'excuses' to come up..whether it be some posts on a thread on b/s/t or a nieghbor being told that you owed rent........you dig?

Thank you for perpetuating the stereotype that everyone that deals in sports cards is just like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

I'd be upset as the buyer as well but I hope I'm not the only one that finds posting PM's troubling.

On most message boards I belong it's against the TOS to post private messages in the public forum.

I don't find it troubling whatsoever. I think as much information as possible is needed.

What I find troubling is that there have been other problems in the past with the same seller, but this is the first time it's been mentioned. These are the kinds of things that the board should know about so we can make wise informed purchasing decisions.

posting PMs is wrong (has been called out on other threads before) as is calling someone and IDIOT in a thread. Packs handled that admirably.

Posting of PMs is permissible in "extraordinary circumstances" as stated in the rules. I think when a member gets screwed over it's an "extraordinary circumstance"as it doesn't happen that often, but that's just my opinion.

Sometimes people make allegations and the only proof for or against them are in PMs.....not fair to not allow in those situations.....or in situations when someone says one thing then they appear to change their mind even though were defending an initial position.....

Conveniently left out your insults directed at me because of my harmless opinion on a baseball card transaction. Cool.

They're not insults if they're true. if you think it's ok to change your mind after a deal is agreed on and the seller is paid, then you are either an idiot or morally corrupt. Which is it?

Well I'm not surprised to hear you take that route. Just because someone has a different opinion than you on trivial matters, that doesn't make the person an idiot. In fact, taking that stance says a lot more about you than it does me.

this thread is embarrassing on so many levels.

Funny, I thought that Mantle looked fantastic for the grade, which is why I think it's causing such a problem between these two collectors.

There's a 3.5 that sold on Ebay for $300+ more, that looks half as good as this 3. I think this is one of those "buy the card, not the holder" examples.

Aesthetically I think Erik will have a hard time finding a similar card at a similar price, no matter how many of these are out there.

+1
 

Agreed

I'm sorry for taking the stance that backing out of a deal once agreed upon is ethically wrong. Blame my folks, that's just the way I was raised. Obviously character matters to some of us, while others it does not.

You're problem is that you frame things in a way that you think skews to your perspective. The issue here is you insulting me for no reason at all. As has been demonstrated by everyone else in this thread, it is possible to express your opinions without insulting people. So once again, so you're clear on why what you're doing is lame and inexcusable, its not cool to insult people who disagree with your trivial opinions. Its even less cool to hide behind polemics instead of just acknowledging your behavior.

"You mean the card with the sideburns"

And off topic, any luck getting Mr. Culp to come on up for one of my shows. Eddie has a photo of him (not a great one as he is in a windbreaker) but we got something. ANd we'll obviously be able to come up with cards.

Let me know and see you next month.

Rich

And so once again, it's not an insult if it's true.

id·i·ot: a stupid person.

Edited to add: So once again, if you think it's ok to change your mind after a deal is agreed on and the seller is paid, then you are either an idiot or morally corrupt. Which is it? If you're morally corrupt, just say so and I'll edit my posts from idiot to morally corrupt.

Usually using your words is a positive for any confrontation. I hope people feel the same way about your moral character as you'd like them to feel about the seller in this thread.

Another thing that makes you an idiot is that you don't know when to shut up. I gave you the last word in post #183. That wasn't good enough for you, you had to start in again in post #188. 4+ hours of no response wasn't good enough for you? Ok, so once again, I'll give you the last word. Go ahead and say whatever you want to say so we can move on and I promise not to respond. You can have the last word once again.

Maybe you should try that thing again I talked about before. Someone commented on your posts directed at me so I responded as well after you conspicuously ignored half their post, which I've noticed is typical for you.

From the legal standpoint, there was most certainly a binding contract which is enforceable, and either money damages or specific performance (compelling a transfer of the Mantle at issue to the buyer) is in order. Specific performance may depend upon whether or not this particular card is considered unique. In a more practical context, almost anything that goes into litigation will ultimately entail at least 12-20 hours of legal time, at approximately $200/hr. or so as the attorney's fee. Unless you can go through small claims court, the lawyer is the only real winner.

Also from a more practical standpoint, the failure of the seller to fulfill his promise to sell upon completion of the transfer of the funds will, as a virtual certainty, reflect so poorly upon him that those who are aware of this failure will refrain from engaging in any transactions with him.

Conclusion: It's time to deliver the card, Dan, with no more BS.

Most sincerely,

Larry

I disagree, respectfully. If he has a card someone really wants, they will overlook it, just like most people overlook all the other BS in this hobby. As has been said ad nauseum, stuff trumps all.

Larry, remember Oliver Wendell Holmes' "bad man" theory of the law? Case in point.

I would also respectfully disagree, Pete. My experience over more than 25 years of collecting is that when a dealer/seller gets a bad rep, others will and do refrain from dealing with him. Unless its an extremely rare item, they can get it elsewhere--all that's necessary is a little patience, which the hobby could use in various respects.

I do always like to read your posts, and wish you the best,

Larry

How many people do you think stopped bidding in Legendary after all the Mastro/Allen stuff came out? My guess is not many, even among their harshest critics, as has been acknowledged on this Board in fact. Not making a judgment about that, just pointing out that stuff is what rules. Look at all the insinuations of shill bidding against certain major online ebay sellers. Their dominance just keeps on increasing.

It doesn't sound like anything is going to change here, Dan hasn't changed his mind and I guess he's already been banned from the BST.

Leon is he banned from just selling?

The sort of interesting thing about that, at least from my perspective, was the fact that I wondered if bidding in Mastro/Allen after the indictments wasn't much safer than before. I actually talked to my brother about that at the time. My thinking was that even they wouldn't be so brazen, bold, stupid, whatever descriptive term you want to use, when they were under indictment and being heavily scrutinized by the feds, as to shill the cards at that point. It wasn't that I didn't think they were cheaters and fraudsters, because I absolutely did, but I thought that they would be running the cleanest auctions ever at that point because they were already under indictment.

I tested this theory one time, in one auction, and threw in a couple of what I considered to be fairly low max bids on the last day. Surprisingly, I actually won both of the cards I had bid on, both below the max bid price, one at a really good price. That doesn't mean that I wasn't shilled by any means, but I will say that I was really surprised by how little I ended up paying for cards. I view it as somewhat of an interesting character study about how greed and fraud works when the feds have you and are far up your ass.

Doug continued to commit fraud while at Legendary.

It was a Legendary auction I was talking about. I think it may have been the last one, actually. He was also under indictment by then.

I agree my parents also taught me to be honorable and have a high grade of moral character. This included not backing out of deals...and...being kind to others, staying positive all the time and doing my best to always treat everyone better than I would hope to be treated.

I would hope your parents didn't skip over that second part

Doug's crimes while he was under indictment dwarf what he did at Mastro.

You would know far better than I do. That would make him far more arrogant and stupid than I ever gave him credit for being.

I can't believe how ridiculous this response is. The problem is that after a transaction was completed (i.e. payment made) that the buyer then proceeded to create a subsequent transaction that could not be reversed.

Let's see if this helps, packs.

1) You buy a plane ticket to Hawaii for a week's vacation. You then purchase a hotel room and several day trips. At the last minute the flight decides to cancel because it isn't full enough. You don't get a refund for the hotel and day trips.

2) You get a new job at a Fortune 500 company. You respectfully put in 2 week's notice at your old job. The new job decides they want someone else. Your "old" company doesn't want you back.

3) Your son gets accepted to the State University. He then rejects his other offers. In late summer the State University decides they have too many students and cancels his acceptance.

4) Your daughter books a spectacular site for her wedding reception a couple years in advance. Everyone fly's in for the event, flowers and catering are paid for and ready, but the day before the wedding the site owner decides he would rather catch up on some sleep and not bother with allowing use of his property.

In each example the seller gave a full refund and wasn't "forced" to complete the transaction. So you actually blame the buyer for making plans before the transaction was complete?

DISCLAIMER-- I agree that the deal should have 100% went through and feel for the buyer.


I need a new driver.

I sell my old driver that is too stiff of a shaft for my declining swing speed after hearing my buddy say he'll sell me his extra.

Buddy says he actually is going to keep his driver because he just shot a 75 during our round.

I go to any number of stores and buy a new driver.


These silly examples can be played either way. While a '51 Mantle isn't a stock Callaway Big Bertha, it's not a black market Rembrandt either.

You put your card up for sale, you agree to a price you receive payment ...you sell the card.

UNLESS you had explained you were upgrading and the card was contingent on another deal. I sell a lot of homes (not that this is the same) and deals die all the time causing a similar chain reaction BUT they die on being contingent on a mortgage or the sale or their current home. If they aren't contingent per the contract they all go through. unless one of the parties dies :eek:. which actually happened to me once. That's my opinion for what its worth.

Why none of you geniuses
 

have not thought of this amazes me, let Newman decide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsbgwNe4Rv4


split the card in half! And you each get a piece.

The hamburger way or the hotdog way?

once more
 

Yes, David, it's not your particular opinion that is the issue here- I agree that he should have gone through with the deal. It's your tendency to insult people for no good reason when your views could be made perfectly clear without doing so.

Crappy centering, roller mark. I think he did you a favor backing out. They're common enough that you can find a much better one.

Staying positive all the time? Really? You are quite the unique individual I must say.

You only have one hobby reputation and an honorable collector and gentleman honors his deals (and his gambling debts), even when it is not convenient. It may be caveat emptor, it may be something that no one is going to run out and sue over, but that's irrelevant. Is it really worth your hobby rep to renege on a friggin' card deal?

Is that the one where we go a-ridin' into town, a-whompin' and a-whumpin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life?

I don't get why Dan just didn't honor the deal in the first place. Even though his deal fell through, obviously his plan was to sell this Mantle and upgrade (or down grade) to a different one. He sold it for what he felt was a fair price and already had the funds transferred.

Personally, I would have completed the transaction and used the money to find the Mantle I was looking for. Who cares if your collection is without a Mantle rookie for few days or weeks. I think looking back, Dan will realize it wasn't worth ruining his reputation on this board over this card.

+1 for the Blazing Saddles reference.

Agreed, but he's confused the snakebelly / wagonwheel rut option with the Ol' Number 6 :D

Didn't say I was successful all the time :D. Just that that was how my parents tried to raise me.

Number 6? I'm not familiar with that one.

not politically correct - but then again either was Lily
 

Taggart: I got it! I got it!
Hedley Lamarr: You do?
Taggart: We'll work up a Number 6 on 'em.
Hedley Lamarr: [frowns] "Number 6"? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that one.
Taggart: Well, that's where we go a-ridin' into town, a-whompin' and a-whumpin' every livin' thing that moves within an inch of its life. Except the women folks, of course.
Hedley Lamarr: You spare the women?
Taggart: Naw, we rape the shit out of them at the Number Six Dance later on.
Hedley Lamarr: Marvelous!

#6
 

Well at least it is someone besides Eric getting 6'd in that scenario

I have a road nearby named Rockridge. Every time I get on it, regardless if I am alone or not, I yell "Somebody go back and get a shitload of dimes!" :D

Not the best card, but fills the hole for now until I can upgrade... The price was right too!

Attachment 206913

And it's centered well!

You were seriously jonesin' for a '51 Mantle!

I don't normally get involved in stuff like that, but in the deal Luke referenced where you offered to sell him a card, I'll clear that up.

I agreed to sell you a card. You offered it for sell to Luke prior to my receiving payment or your receiving the card. What if Luke had agreed to your offer to sell my card to him and had sent you the money, and then I had 'pulled a Dan' and reneged on our deal? What you just did seems much worse than what I considered doing (but didn't), given that not only did you make the deal this time - you actually had the money in hand.

You have now played both sides and claimed that both are ethical. If everyone on the board did business like this, we would have no classified section.

edited for spelling - Whoops :(

In your scenario I would have refunded Luke's money. Pretty simple. As far as the deal with Eric, I made a decision and accept the consequences of it.

Screwed?......No

I wish you luck in finding another but you did not win a auction. Seller has every right to back out. Good luck.

English, please?

Seller has every right to back out? Even after they've collected all the money from the buyer?

In this scenario then, how long can the seller KEEP both the card and he buyers money before deciding if he's going to sell?

I see this is your first post, so since you're obviously not known to the board or any of it's members, per forum rules we're going to need your first and last name next to each post you make on controversial threads such as this one. No one is allowed to remain anonymous when participating in threads such as this. Thanks and nothing personal...

Actually, he has no right whatsoever to back out.

You are now honored by having the fewest posts ever for being banned from our BST. You won't get the chance to back out of a deal here. While a first offense won't usually get you banned it is NOT an "acceptable" action in general.. good luck

and per rules, as Brian mentioned, the name our new member gave for registration is suspect (to me) .... Chr.is toph.er....and in looking at his id and "full" name we are going to go ahead and suspend him completely until he and I have a chat. I am going to go out on a limb and think his full name isn't Chris topher........if it is then my bad .....we'll see. We don't allow complete anonymity on this board, registrations have to be correct.

Secondbase didn't make it past first. :eek:

#sellingcardsmatters

Now that's funny :D

Maybe he has a mononym? Like Kreskin or Zorro?

Geat, when he convinces us he can come back....

I am impressed by the quick and decisive action taken by Leon in this case and agree that we do not need members on this board who feel it's ok to back out of a transaction, especially one where thousands of dollars have already changed hands.

Another reason why I'm a big fan of this board.