I'm pretty sure PSA graded fake Babe Ruth Sporting Life rookies a few years back.

They all make mistakes.

Tony

psa / sgc
 

The standard biscuit fiasco was surprising. I bought one of the mistakenly graded W575 strip cards from a reputable dealer on ebay who took the card back. It was not a perfect scan . As soon as I received the card and looked at it , it was obvious that two out of the 4 sides were hand cut with small hanging pieces and jagged edges . You could see them with a magnifying glass or a loop. It was as clear as can be and any competent grader should have caught that one , not to mention the several SGC graded. I posted about the cards when I was a bidder and thought no way that if they were altered it would get through SGC or the dealer who sold them. I am sure people have had bad experiences with PSA that could be similar. That experience along with the fact the SGC cards don't normally cross and sell for less money is the reason I posted and agree with Kevin. I do understand why people like SGC . I just think Kevin is right about the values and I am just hesitant due to a bad experience
Rick Clemens

It may be hindsight, but the stamps weren't 100 percent convincing either.

sorry to hijack, but
 

It is hindsight, Peter. The 1921 SBs are a fairly obscure issue with a woefully incomplete checklist. The backs of these cards, which may not even be fakes or at least may be original blank-backs with added stamps, are not 100% convincing when held up next to one with a real back. Still, that is perhaps the best stamp I have seen--most just have text and not design, and while I agree it should have been caught, the breakdown here is far more understandable than letting a reprint m101 Ruth rookie get through.

Rick, I'm sorry for your bad experience and understand your PSA preference, although I don't share it. I just wanted to point out one last thing on those Standard Biscuits, and that's my opinion that your finding some jagged edges is nothing conclusive. I do not believe that shows them to be hand-cut, and W575s are often found machine cut. Machine cut cards can have jagged edges--here are two of several PSA cards I own that show this--note the view from the backs:
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...m1014judge.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/imoverh...14callahan.jpg
I believe that certain B&W issues can have high-grade cards that retain these little fragments, which are then worn down or off as the card is handled. Now Standard Biscuits are very rarely seen in high grade, which maybe should have alerted SGC right there. But having a little "hair" on the edges doesn't mean they were trimmed or hand-cut, and wouldn't by itself tell a grader that these were strip cards (if they were).

Looks like a PSA 4.5 to me. Two soft bottom corners, poor centering and a stain in the middle of the top white border.

One thing
 

Sgc are staffed with some very experienced graders...........TOP NOTCH STAFF

Todd good points. What it comes down to I guess is at least at the level of fees we are paying now, mistakes are going to happen and some of it is going to get through as long as the scumbags of the hobby set out to commit fraud. One wonders how these folks live with themselves.

I'm with you Bob, ridiculous...

Please folks, take another look at this card.... A 7, really?? This is ridiculous

You can find over graded cards in all TPG's holders.
How did PSA miss the brown stain on this highly prominent card? Besides the super narrow side borders? This Ruth must be the "skinny" variation

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...RuthRookie.jpg

Ouch.

I will agree that the Walsh is a very weak seven. With that said, I have a few very sharp SGC 5.5 ( 70 ) and 6 ( 80 ) cards that would easily pass for near mint / mint if raw. I don't really keep track of PSA cards, although I realize they are the "original" / "top dog" or whatever term you want to put on them. this has been a rather long thread, so I'll make a couple points and then bow out.

* It was mentioned by a previous poster that SGC might be moving to Florida. I would think this could be a mistake. SGC has some loyal collectors in the Northeast, and anytime I go into their office, they seem rather busy with people dropping off and picking up submissions. They seem like they have a nice thing going in New Jersey, I can't imagine that the move to Florida would see the same "walk in" business.

*As a collector and not an investor, I know it has been said a million times, but there is something that really makes the SGC cards pop with the black inserts, I just don't feel the same about PSA. I would have to think that someone looking to put together nice mid / upper grade raw sets could do very well buying sgc 5's and 6's at good prices and then popping them out of the cases. I can't speak for pre-war, but for 50's thru 70's stuff, I will admit that PSA does sell a little stronger in many cases.

* Finally and also mentioned before, the whole thing about joining PSA just to allow them to grade your stuff... I'll pass. My wife already thinks the whole card thing is a little weird. I mean if it was the other way around and my wife got her shoes graded, had to pay a place just to let them grade her shoes, I would find that a little extreme to be fair. Not a great analogy, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Why wouldn't PSA just let anyone send their stuff in and let members get a discounted rate, be eligible for specials, etc. I do agree with a previous post that a mixed registry would be a good thing. Make it that at least 25% of the set needs to be SGC or some sort of similar criteria.

Absolutely, any grade company is going to make mistakes. But even so, this card is a PSA 6, not an SGC 80. the ratio between PSA and SGC is not even close. SGC would probably give this card a grade of 82-84 knowing them. And even if it was by chance the same grade, the resale value between the two is not even close. I can show you scans of T206s graded SGC 88 that are ridiculous...

Without opening any future threads, these are enough, please look at VCP, card target, and past auction listings for comparisons between PSA and SGC.....Don't throw up when you do.....

Maybe even a 92, right? Do you think just because you repeat the same BS 100 times that it makes it any more believable? Comeon, Kevin, we get it: you have a strong financial interest in PSA cards selling for as much as possible. And your comments are colored by this.

You're damn right Jeff. Do you not get it financially??

I feel an ambush coming on......

I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade.

Fair enough....We can agree to disagree

Relax, Kevin, you can start 100 threads about how much superior PSA is than SGC. No one listens to you anyway because everyone knows your apparent ability to feed yourself is directly related to the value of your PSA slabs.

:)Nice...Having said that, prove me wrong with SGC and the difference in their prices compared to PSA....

You might be right about nobody listening, because it appears that 80% or higher on this forum prefer SGC.....Why I have absolutely no clue....

Did you not read what I just wrote? In non-Registry cards there is no difference because those are cards purchased by card collectors rather than plastic slab collectors. The majority of people who are on Net 54 collect cards and not the slabs. And they favor SGC for a reason.

I did read what you wrote. They dont value resale in their investment? Why does anyone collect then? Don't you want to improve your collection? I wonder if D. Hall is like this with coins?? Jeff- Everybody wants to make a profit on their investment, slabbed or raw....

"Why I have absolutely no clue.... "

On that we can agree.

At some point, they have have to do something with their cards, right?

Registry cards. Just Registry cards. And I know you can't seem to understand this but some people collect because they enjoy the cards and not the idea that the plastic may be worth more someday.

As for someone with a 7 figure collection I can tell you I don't think twice about what the PSA cards will bring on resale compared to my SGC cards. Because the majority of the cards I own are low pop and difficult to find in either SGC or PSA slabs. So they will resell for the same price regardless of the slab they are in.

Honestly, domt you think your type of collector is more often found on the PSA boards than here? With the constant discussion of the Registry, submissions being returned and resale value of Registry cards? The reason why 80% of rhe people here favor SGC is because their collecting focus IS NOT THE REGISTRY BUT THE CARDS THEMSELVES.

Fair enough, thanks Jeff...

I think Jeff and others will be fine with their purchases.

Also as a person with a $7 dollar collection I too am not worried about resell but am a bit concerned about cab fare.

I already told you I'm paying for our next dinner. No need to sell your 1958 Topps PSA 8 Don Mossi for $40.

It's actually a PSA 8 MC but it's totally under graded Jeff looks like a 10.

I bet it is...

Actually it isn't. I just got caught up in salesman BS over hyping a card that's exactly what it is, a PSA 8 with issues. Sorry Kevin.

:Dnice try light bulb head...

A bald joke, that's your come back? Good to see your lack of originality is consistent across the board and isn't just found in your BST and TPG threads. :D

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now you did it.

:)You're right , can't wait to see you at the National, cheers....

LOL, you're such a tool, I'm really glad you're around Kevin don't ever change. :D

1

not a registry guy
 

and thousands and thousands a bit beyond my somewhat pedestrian accumulation - but what he said.......

"I think for Registry cards PSA sells higher. For cards that people are not foaming at the mouth for to put into their Registry sets there is little difference if any between SGC and PSA -- and personally I pay the same for such cards if they're in PSA or SGC slabs. I have thousands and thousands of Registry cards and they're all, by definition, PSA cards. Anything raw I purchase I send solely to SGC because I like the looks of the holders better, the customer service and the knowledge of the people at SGC more. And I see too many errors with PSA-slabbed cards but that may simply be a function of PSA grading so many more cards. All that being said, I'll be sending in my first submission to PSA in years due solely to their grading certain issues I have which SGC does not grade. "
__________________
One final thought from me would be that PSA allows for front and back paperlosss all too often without it being reflected in the grade - something I'm less than a fan of and an important factor in my staying with SGC along with continuity. That said my main disappointment with SGC is that other people are seemingly dissatisfied with certain aspects of SGC that could be remedied - so much so that they have gravitated to PSA.
I prefer SGC remain healthy as competition spurs improvement and growth - to that end I wish they would take a more responsive and aggressive approach to upgrading their site and their product. I think they need to be more proactive - maybe spend a few dollars and as was said earlier - engage the most active targets with some kind of social media push or raise their profile. I'm reminded of the "we try harder" slogan........
Endless repeating the refrain that PSA is so much better than SGC tagline over and over does get a little old - whether it's the "laughable" SGC grading or the "are you kidding me" anecdotal sales prices used in attempt to beat a dead horse. Collectors will gravitate to whichever TPG aligns with their views of a proper grading and authentication system - their concerns after cost mostly driven by the card and not the commodity value - the seller gravitates to whomever at the time delivers the more saleable product.

Yes, a second quality grader is paramount to the hobby. Coins have NGC and PCGS, generally people prefer PCGS and their items sell for little more, but NGC right on their heels and very respectable.

SGC does need some bona fide step up in marketing.

Biggest thing is, like the stock market, you make your money when you buy. You can pony up big for PSA, but will it yield profits when you sell? Be careful. Paying less for SGC can yield profits too.

Honestly I don't think either grading company (PSA vs SGC) is any better than the other. And like many here have said, PSA probably has a larger following at this point due to their set registry. Probably does make more sense if you have a T206, 1933 Goudey, or a 1941 Play Ball.

My question for the non-main stream T206 collector however. Would you equally pay just as much money and be just as comfortable for the most part buying a T206 with a Drum back? Would anyone getting a Drum graded these days just plain be better off going to PSA? If so, this is a far cry from the way things were on this board even five years ago.

I just sold my collection and sent in around 200 of my collection cards, all to SGC, to grade (except a few to Beckett which SGC didn't grade). When I had my T206s I only sent them to SGC too. I did have a few in PSA holders and just left them in them. A mid grade Drum will get the same price in a PSA or SGC holder, imo.

I still seeing PSA outpacing SGC graded cards for the most part....i do agree with leon that mid grade drums t206 type of cards are pretty similar....its been more than 6 months since the last post...anything change?

Still seems to be the same as you can buy a SGC card much cheaper.:cool:

So let me get this strait, PSA won't swap over SGC cards? If so, why not just crack open the holder and send in raw. If the card is graded properly, wouldn't PSA grade it as such? I have several SGC card none over $300 that I was planning on sending to PSA. Should I be worried that they would not ease them at all or grade them out the same the SGC once did?

David- PSA will look at submitted SGC cards in their holders. If you have high graded SGC cards, it takes big balls to crack them out and send in to PSA raw. There is somewhat of a mind game here. Why would PSA give a grade of 8 to an SGC graded card that is an 86? Do they want to give in to their major rival? I'm no expert here, but most people that I have spoken with have told me that SGC graded cards normally get lesser gradeds with PSA, especially the pre-war cards. At the end of the day, you really have to go with the strength of the card and not the holder, just my take...

You could send them to PSA still in the SGC holder and pay a "crossover" rate which is more expensive then a straight grade for a raw card. Many people including myself think that you get a biased opinion doing it this way as PSA seems to have a tendency to give you a grade below SGC's holder. Best way is to crack and submit raw (although over the last 18 months I've received about the same results doing it this way as well). I think overall PSA grades .5 to 1 grade stricter across the board.

Some truth to this possibly. But again, it takes a lot of nerve to crack out an SGC 88 T206 HOFer....Then you have the risk of it coming back from PSA as being trimmed or altered, not worth the risk IMO

I see what you are saying and I can see how the stakes are significantly raised with the higher grade cards. I don't have anything over a 3 in SGC slabs so I really don't have that much skin in the game. I have noticed while I like PSA cards better, they seem to be less consistent in their grades. I have a PSA 3 that's sharp as razors and a PSA 3.5 that should at best be a grade below my PSA 3 cards. SGC cards seem to be more uniform in their grading for me anyways. I have learned through this forum to buy the card not the grade.

I'm actually more scared I would damage a high grade card cracking it out than I am it would get a lower grade or come back altered. Even sliding it back into a card saver. The risk of damage in shipping. No risk no reward I suppose, but the crack and resubmit game is one I haven't tried. That is unlikely to change in the future.

I started a fully graded 1958 Topps baseball set 8 or 9 years ago and finally finished it at the end of last year (yea for me!). At one time I had about 1/2 of the set PSA and 1/2 SGC graded. Switched to all PSA a few years ago because they were easier to find on Ebay.
Looked at the buy it now pop today for PSA and SGC cards on Ebay and it is around 4500 PSA and less than 500 SGC.
I like the look of cards in SGC holders better and they seem graded no better or worse than PSA but they were just harder to find. This is only my observation and only regarding 58 Topps, but they also sell for 10 to 30% less for cards of same grade. Eight years ago when I started the prices were almost par for equal grades ( the lower trend started about 4 years ago).
B1L d0n@1dsun

A couple of years ago I purchased pretty large lot of graded cards for the purpose of resale on eBay. The lot consisted of pretty equal representation of cards slabbed by PSA, BGS, SGC, and BVG.

I listed all the cards at the same time and they were priced to move, right at the VCP average.

SGC cards BY FAR took the longest to sell. PSA sold the fastest and Beckett was better than I expected. In fact, SGC was no match for even Beckett. Some of the SGC slabs (priced as low as $5!) are still sitting in my store while the others are long gone.

I'm not one to join in the "bash this or that grading company" crusade, but the centering on some cards that I've seen with SGC 84 7 is absolutely horrendous.

Not a good look for SGC.

I mailed off all but two of my SGC cards to PSA yesterday. Nothing over a 40/3 but still my babies. I am hopeful I can get equal grades and move on.

Several months ago I sent 2 SGC graded 1954 Red Heart cards to PSA for crossover. The cards were a SGC 88(8) Billy Martin and a SGC 96(9) Hank Sauer. I requested minimum grades of 8 and 8.5. Both cards crossed to the same as SGC had them graded.
James

None of this is true in a general sense.

PSA rules in the grading of post-War commodity cards a.k.a. Registry cards. In pre-War terms the comparables are pretty much limited to high-grade T206.

For everything else (this is a pre-War forum, so this is what matters here), there is no material difference in pricing and everyone knows it.

I note that REA still sends lots of pre-War cards to SGC for grading before auction. Are they stupid? Are they looking to lose money? Are they screwing over the consignors? No, no, and no. The fact is that this PSA market superiority is asserted incessantly by some people who have no real relevant data to back it up.

I don't give a crap about anyone's high-grade 50s Topps - this is a pre-War forum. And high-grade T206 is not enough of a sample to make the kind of sweeping generalizations that seem to be popular lately.

The facts always seem to get in the way of a good argument...

Cheers,
Blair

Psa was founded on a lie and deception with the Psa 8 t206 wagner and i have always questioned if some of these auction houses and "elite" collectors could buy a grade they want because of the money they spend. I might be way off base with the ability to purchase a grade but it seems that way to me at some of these cards I have seen graded that don't deserve the high grade they have received.

I couldn't agree more.

Also, to say PSA is better than SGC or vice versa is just ridiculous. Both grading companies, at least the last I checked, have humans on their payroll. And with humans, comes human error.

Both companies have hundreds, if not thousands, of undergraded/overgraded cards.

Most of us here have been collecting a lot longer than some of these "experts" that grade these cards.

Actually, I think the OP stated that PSA cards sell consistantly higher than SGC cards - not that one is "better" than the other.

Last month, I did my own research on eBay concerning this. I used T206 Green Cobb, 62 Topps Maris, 69 Topps Mantle and 75 Topps Aaron. Without exception, the PSA sold 15% or more higher than the SGC of equal grade.

I know this as a fact. I simply looked for myself.

I haven't read all of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been said:

I have sent a lot of tobacco cards to both PSA and SGC lately, and I think the main difference in price is that the two companies are using different grading scales. A few years ago we used to joke around on here about some terrible cards in PSA 3-5 holders. I think they have over-corrected, because they are grading very tough right now. SGC seems to be grading a little bit easier than they used to. I have a bunch of VGEX-ish raw cards that I'm getting ready to submit, and I know they will get between 3.5 and 4 from PSA, and 55-60 from SGC.

It would be great for collectors if all grading companies used the same standards, but I don't think they have ever claimed that they do. Right now, a PSA 4 is going to cost more than an SGC 50, and it should because in almost all cases, it will be in better condition.

For the lower end of the grading spectrum, I haven't noticed much difference. But it is very clear in the mid-grades. I don't personally have any experience with submitting high-grade cards.