Scott just teasing, I agree with you. I am naïve enough to think most people still have integrity. But a lot don't.

Maybe there's hope for cleaning up memorabilia, because I don't see it happening for cards.

I think collectors willing to readily buy from sellers they know act unethically and perhaps even break the law don't realize the significance of provenance as it relates to value-- especially over the long term. If it turns out the seller you procured many of your cards is shown to have knowingly sold altered cards, it will effect the resale value of your collection. Whether or not your high grade cards were, buyers will wonder if they were also altered. Many collectors simply won't be willing to touch your high graded cards or their skepticism will at least be reflected in their bidding when they found where you got them.

Many game used collectors have learned the lesson of how the value of LOAs sand items can drop after the sellers are sentenced for forgery and related law breaking, and how it can taint in the minds of buyers legitimate items obtained from the seller. And there's no reason card collectors purchasing from sellers they know act unethically and/or break the law can't learn a similar lesson.

...

...

In my opinion, very few people care if cards are altered, as long as they are in holders. Oh they might pay lip service to it, but they are more than happy to turn a blind eye.

A tip of the hat to the OP for clearly stating why he is POed.

Rick Probstein apparently made this feedback vanish, thereby adding to the eBay sham that is the feedback system.

Best regards,

Eric

+1


Everyone is most certainly NOT probably doing it. Judge individual sellers on Ebay on their own merits, not the entirety of Ebay as a single juggernaut.

It's like saying Mastro is crooked, Mastro is an auction house..........therefore, all auction houses are crooked.

Much of what I am reading in this thread is either naive or appallingly ignorant. The one salient fact on shilling is this: shilling an auction is illegal. It is the e-quivalent of mugging the buyer. End of debate over its legitimacy: as a matter of law that it is never OK.

Shilling is not placing a reserve on an item. Placing a reserve on an item is a legitimate option on eBay but many bidders don't like to see that little "reserve not met" line on the listing, so many sellers balk at using them.

Dress it up all you like but shilling is a fraud on the buyer, who is lulled into believing that the auction started at the opening price and was honestly bid by legitimate bidders to a price one bid increment below the winning price, when it was not.

Shilling corrupts the database of value research. VCP and every price report of actual results is skewed by the overblown and/or fake results reported on shilled auctions.

As for Probstein bidders who bid only with him, how realistic does that seem? I don't know of any active card buyer who bids only with one eBay seller. Does anyone here confine their bidding to one seller? If so, let's hear it.

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

I basically agree...if you prepared to have to pay 20% if you 'win' your own card I really think all of this is a non issue..

I guess if an auction house says 'shilling is allowed but the bidder who wins will have to pay 20%'..i would be confortable bidding knowing that if the owner of the card was really bidding on his own card he was willing to risk 20% on top of his bid if he 'wins' the card...that to me is a legitimate bid for him to take the risk.


Standard language on most AH contracts : Neither you or nor anyone on your behalf acting as your agent may bid on Memoribilia you have tendered to us. If you violate this provision of the Agreement, and you have the highest bid on an item or lot, you will pay us the commission and Buyers Premium on the item or lot upon which you are the highest bidder. There are no exceptions to this provision"

So even though they forbid it..they still allow it to go through if you pay the bp....I don't see a problem with that...that's shilling ..the seller wiling to eat 20%...then that item was going way to low for him....if seller thinks the item is about to sell 10% under market you think he will want to pay 20% to preserve that? no way..he will let it go..

Adam, I gave a real example in a previous post. I purchased very little, in terms of cards, this year when compared to previous years. At most 2-3 items a month through eBay and probably 75% of those items were BIN or BO. Later in the year I changed my focus and began buying more. Around October/November I noticed and bid on several (7-9) cards in the same week with Probstein. I won 3-4 and was the underbidder on the rest. Had the winners of the other cards checked the bid history I could almost guarantee my bid history with Probstein would have 90%+ because eBay only tracks bid history for 30 days and because of how little I've bid on in the recent past. What should a seller like Probstein, who already offers a 14 no hassles return policy, do if one of the other winners saw my bid history and though he/she was shilled? Give them all a partial refund? For every person here who makes dozens of bids a day on objects of their hobby there are hundreds to thousands who pick of cards in prolonged intervals, usually multiple purchases at once when funds have been saved.

Nobody disagreeing with the main points of this thread and countless others like it believe shilling is acceptable, just that it's a fact of the system. Even if Probstein, PWCC, or whomever else took every feasible step to try and stop it any a-h@le can find a way to consign and shill a card anonymously. I've never done it, but I'd imagine it can't be that freaking difficult. Some people here call that idealism silly. I call it common sense, but whatever.

Dave - surely you understand that if we can't get into the mind of a complete stranger to identify his motives for bidding on an item, then all shilling should be legal?

So how/where am I supposed to buy cards for prices that are not influenced by ebay shill bidding? Can we as a card collecting community file a class action lawsuit against ebay for turning a blind-eye? What is the solution? Or is this just something we have to live with in this digital auction world?

I can tell you that shilling is happening for a lot more than sports card/collectible ebay auctions. My wife wanted to buy a roll of fabric. She put in a max bid an lost at auction close. She said "I can't believe there's somebody else in this world who wanted that ugly fabric". A couple days later, she said that same fabric is listed as an auction by the same seller. We checked the previous auction she lost...the winner had 90% bidding history with the seller and tons of retractions.

I'm not saying that I condone it, but what are we supposed to do when the market value of the cards we want are set by shilled ebay auctions? We can boycott certain ebay sellers and ebay itself, but what about respected auction houses and the BST here? Aren't the "market value" prices we pay there also determined by shilled sales?

Of course not Jason. Stop being appallingly ignorant. ;)

Of course they are. If they are contributing to the problem by bidding on items sold by sellers such as the ones described here, then they are saying that shilling is acceptable.

Some of the logic in this thread is flabbergasting. To the guy who says if we are not going to patronize known shillers, we should not patronize ebay: If you have a broken arm, do you want your doctor to put you down, or would you rather he fixed your arm?

Okay, this has gotten silly - you guys carry on.

Thank you, Todd. That gave me my first outward laugh of the day, and I needed it.

Your bid history might be 100% with 1 seller but is only a few bids.

You also have to look at the sellers feedback total.
This bidder only has 50 feedback on ebay total.
Put in 788 bids in 1 month with 88% with 1 seller. With that many bids they sure don't win much with the 1 bidder most of their bids are with. Not saying this is a shilling account but I don't buy from this seller because they have several bidders like this in their auctions.

Bidder Information
Bidder: j***m( 50Feedback score is 50 to 99)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
Removed to protect sellers ID
Bids on this item: 10

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 788
Items bid on: 133
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 88% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 3

It isn't easy to fix this mess, no one said we could wave a magic wand and make it so. However, a good start is to acknowledge the problem and refuse to be part of it rather than just throwing up your hands and surrendering. I used to think that I was smart enough to simply snipe my price and that would be OK, but since reading more about what happened with Mastro and what is happening on eBay I realized that it is causing real damage. When I see a probstein auction now I don't bid. Simple enough. If enough people refuse to patronize probstein auctions, they will close. It all starts with personal accountability.

The way people use 'market price' bugs me. People act like there is an entity called 'market' who sets a price like a giant grocery clerk with a tagging gun, and then we have to abide by Market's price on the tag. That is just magical thinking. A card is worth whatever a willing buyer and seller are willing to transact for it at a given time, and that number is subject to indefinite variables that are never quite the same, whether it is someone filling out a set, someone with a big consignment offset available, etc. The 'market price' construct bothers me because if the last sale on the card was $100 but there are no cards available for $100, then the market price for the card isn't $100.

My comment on price distortions dovetails with the market price construct issue: because people insist on creating a 'market price' to rely on, the inflated sales results become the raw data from which people who like to follow the herd will distill their 'market price'. I have been assembling data on boxing cards for my guides for over a decade. I gather data from various sources: eBay, auctioneers, private sales I become aware of, etc. If some of those reported outcomes are skewed by illegal activities like shilling then I end up reporting inaccurate information, and the people who rely on that data to create their price points will be relying on unrealistic data. Uncertainty kills commerce. Unreliable price data generates uncertainty in the sense that collectors see a card selling for $100 and wonder why they can't sell theirs for $90, or they wonder why even though no one has stepped up to pay $90 for the card no seller will take $75 for it.

I have decided that until the python passes the puppy, so to speak--until I feel realistic steps have been taken to stem the tide of shilling and market manipulation--I am not going to offer price research again.

This is just incredible being discussed yet again in a lengthy thread. I wish someone would go back to the archives and post these same type of complaints. I will say it again, if Probstein is guilty of obvious, and consistant bid shilling, Why in Hell can't Ebay be involved in it? Money is one thing, but if they are attacked publicly and legally, how can they not be held accountable? Before any other bullshit posts, please someone answer this....

They are attacked publicly, but no one has the money to attack them legally.

Most likely because Probstein is not doing any actual shilling, his consignors are. Ebay does not have Probsteins consignors lists.

It's a grey area, that complicates what many see as a black & white issue.

It's that grey area that probably allows companies like Coach's Corner to still exist. Blame it on the consignors/authenticators/peoples opinions.

At least Probstein sells actual tangible items and not worthless pieces of scrap paper, uniforms and baseballs grafitti'd over with nonsense.

It is a little ironic, that this thread blew up based on a shill accusation that was probably not a shill at all..........when there seems to be so many better examples out there to go by.

Careful Kevin - you could be accused of violating your own request :)

Did you read the very first post in the thread - it gives you a detailed description of ebay's involvement.

How about a big fat letter from an attorney?? Where's Jeff?

Scott- Not sure where you're going, but I have backed Rick on a few situations...My complaint is why can't anything be done with Ebay legally? That's all I'm saying...

Kevin, I'm exasperated with ebay, and as soon as I can make my living without them, I'm out of there. Eventually ebay will be forced to clean up. It used to be you could get away with anything in the sports card and memorabilia hobby - that is slowly changing (see threads on Mastro/Legendary, Operation Bullpen, etc.). Coaches Corner will fall some day and people will go to jail. Ebay may still be a ways off, but it will happen - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sting that sends many of the big sellers, and a few ebay management personnel, off to prison.

Meanwhile, I avoid corrupt sellers just like I avoid buying electronics out of the backs of vans in parking lots. Not much, but you have to start somewhere.

Scott what's your prognosis for card doctors?

Well said...

Shilling is illegal. Saying "contact ebay and they will see if any shilling is going on" is bullshit, especially when you know ebay is going to do anything they can to keep getting their percentage of your sales. Like I said, some of the big sellers will do jail time eventually, and claiming they didn't know anything was going on is not going to fly. I guarantee you the FBI has techies who can connect the dots.

Not usually a TLA user, but LOL. Do you remember the raw E95 Cobb that I had? I have 'after' scans of it in PSA, GAI and SGC holders. No one here supported me on that one - not a single person. So I would have to say the prognosis (for them personally) is still pretty good.

Edited to add: the raw E95 Cobb was used as a card doctor test subject, and passed all three grading companies (color added to background, paper tear on back glued back together, stain removal, etc.)

See no evil, hear no evil. As long as they look pretty in their slabs and they count on the registry.

It's true. For those who question whether or not most of the high-grade T206's have been trimmed....please don't make me laugh. Trimming a card is child's play.

These days.... ebay seems nothing more than craigslist on PEDs. :cool:

Well maybe but it's also big business.

There are better examples but that does not mean this was not most certainly shilling. These cards were certainly shilled

Rick Probstein is a good seller .....
 

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

How about I offer Rick Probstein the opportunity to take a polygraph test and answer a few questions about fraud? If he passes he gets $100,000. If the results show that he has engaged in fraud he pays me $20,000. Since he hasn't done anything wrong this should be an easy pay day, right? Maybe you can get in on the bet?

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

God forbid a business owner monitor his own business to make sure it is operating honestly. Yeah that is expecting WAY too much.

No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?

Call me confused, but what I "don't really get" is these kinds of justifications. What you are saying is that Rick sells my stuff fine, I get my money, so what's everyone's problem? I don't think there is ANY question about Rick getting the money for his consignees. He is obvious doing something right for his CONSIGNEES. But what about the buyers being screwed?

Sorry but to me, these kinds of posts reek of the "I'm getting mine so I don't have a problem with it" kind of response.

Just poking around on some cards, found this gem in VCP
 

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

Pleeeezzz, Really your post are great. They always bring a smile to my face.

Why do you think shillers pay when they win their own auction listing instead of just canceling the transaction to avoid the fees.

Not attacking you on this Leon, but a thought for Probstein. Blocking the bidder is a joke - how hard is it for the "shiller" to create a new account? If he really wants to clean it up he needs to start blocking consignors who have the shilled auctions. Before anyone gets to crazy with me on this - I'm not saying he should immediately ban consignors of all suspect auctions, but he can certainly ban those who have multiple auctions that display this suspect bidding activity.

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.

I've noticed this too.
 

... I follow the 1957 Topps set in PSA 7 and 8 to keep a finger on the pulse of the economy....the ''sold'' section in the search results is a head-scratcher sometimes , until you view the 'seller'.

..this is a great thread ; thanks to all the posters ; but this is the first time I've ever suffered a popcorn headache..

..

I've collected some 1950s sets in high grade, card by card -- and never once did I care who the seller was unless he had zero or very weird feedback. No one wants to deal exclusively with PWCC and Probstein unless you're a shill bidder.

Still trying to get my head around this recent Aaron RC although I am told it was legit.

Latest Auction Prices for: PSA 8 - Average Price: $7,727.00


12/5/14 Greg Bussineau Auction | Image 17 $9,240.00
10/22/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector e***m 69 $16,988.00
10/6/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector c***a 20 $8,600.00
8/25/14 eBay Auction | Image cmlwvu a***r 43 $6,300.00
2/28/14 eBay Image ksp1140 a***a Best Offer $5,250.00
2/9/14 eBay Image cardcountry t***a Best Offer $6,750.00
1/22/14 eBay Image memorylaneinc -***o BIN $7,745.00

[QUOTE=Leon;1367663]No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?[/QUOTE

I find it hard to believe his block bidder list is solely predicated on possible shill bidders, more likely on bidders who have called him out on specific issues they have had with him or accused him of wrong doings. He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.

As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

Take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'Emerging Verticals' program, you are part of the 'Bent Over Vertically' program.

lol!

eBay is a publicly traded entity that needs to satisfy analysts quarterly earnings estimates. That is where all of this originates.

Absolutely agree with this. I have put up cards on eBay a grade level over the ones sold in those two auctions a week later at the same or lesser price and they sit and rot. I know if I am an underbidder and the next week the same card in better shape pops up for a lesser or equal price I am on it. Add to that the 'loyalists' these guys seem to have and the stinky factor goes off the charts.

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.

I don't think anyone is "not too bothered" by shilling, I just think we are limited by what we can do about it.


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Excellent post . Accurate and funny.

I stay away from Probstein and the others mention. I know they are shilled.

The whole process lends itself to it.

The ball card world has a lot of unscrupulous people in it.

Some are...some aren't. When I see a common PSA 3 sell for just as much as the same card in a PSA 6, then yes, I think something funny is going on with the PSA 3. There is nothing that I can add that hasn't been rehashed time and time again.

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...on the big auction houses you would lose 20 percent...yeah some may want to protect what they think is a steal and pay the 20 percent..but really how many times can you do that as 10-20% really eats away at any profit you want to realize... just doesn't make sense as well if you have a 200 dollar card and its up to 250 which for example is 50 over VCP..why risk 'winning' the card if lose 10-20% when already way above VCP .

I keep seeing how people are saying the same card a week later on PROBSTEIN auction goes 3x what it went for last week...it really doesn't make sense...who the heck would risk 'winning' the card when they own the card when already sky high over what they would hope to expect.

there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

There is no penalty to a buyer if they win something on ebay and don't pay for it...Thus, a consignor who shills their own auction and wins simply doesn't pay for it ...The item then gets put back up for auction and/or given back to the consignor...

The shiller (now knowing the legit bidder put in a max bid of $100.01) would likely retract his bid and then re-bid to $100, pushing the legit bidder to his max.

That's why when you see accounts with large amounts of bid retractions, suspicions are aroused. I've been on ebay for probably 15 years and don't think I've EVER retracted a bid. But there are accounts with a year or two of service and 50+ bid retractions. Doesn't make sense.

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.

If the consignor gets greedy and wins the item, What happens? Nothing....He just doesn't pay; the seller waits for his money back from Ebay for final fees and the card is listed again....Seller can't leave neg feedback and the sellers that take consignments know the consignors themselves might be bidding so wouldn't leave neg even if they could...bad for future business...Ï hate shilling as much as the next collector....but....it's everywhere...

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

Right we went through this already.....Ebay past sales shouldn't hold as much value as there is no penalty to the shiller versus AHs...and when a card finally gets crushed at an AH because of the past shilling foundation you speak of..now we would have the new real value.....taking ebay out of it..i really don't see how taking a risk to bid on your own card when its at VCP or 10 percent less is worth it when you risk paying a 20% BP...... ..

I value AH past sales higher then ebay..and most people in the hobby that buy expensieve cards have a bunch more knowledge than me so im sure they do the same thing...thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

Yes it is.

Leon- If buyers actually had to pay 20% if won their own items, do you agree that its not as big a deal as many think. I understand there may be issues if they acutally have to pay the 20%, but lets assume you lose 20% if you win your own item, don't you think that's enough of a penalty.

thus if I were to bid on an item, I would know that if the bidder under me was prepared to lose 20% if 'won' the item is pretty comforting to me ..

yes I know you will come up with examples if the item is about to sell for 40% lower than perceived market so people bid on their own items..i say go ahead and eat 20% ..you really think they will want to eat another 20% on the same card?

By definition shilling is fraudulent. If you want to protect the price on something do a reserve or higher starting price, neither of which is fraudulent.

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.

better than ANOTHER attorney :D

I agree with you there...but not sure why they wouldn't rather just set a reserve than risk 20% on a 'win' to me that's saying something if they are so sure their bid is so low that they will pay 20% on a win

if card vcp is at 20k and the bidding is at 18k...and they can lose 2k..you really think they bid it to 19k and have the chance to lose 3800? doesn't make sense..i really think though illegal its a non issue for the high priced cards at AH that make you pay 20% on a win.