Joey,

You manned up and admitted you have a problem. I don't think there is anything else to say. I hope you get the issue under control because it can be very destructive.

Alex

As I said before, I have bought and sold multiple photos to Joey in the past 6mos. In my dealings, he has been very fair in his pricing and quick in his payment and shipping. On the board, excluding the BST, I think his threads and posts have been positive contributions. I agree that he has some ebay issues to deal with, but it's interesting in that most of his problems with retractions, etc seem to involve items other than photos. In many of the ebay Ids that have been shown, he has a string of positive feedback results, with positive wording, from Henry Yee, who as we all know sells mostly photos anymore. Not sure what is up with that, but that appears to the pattern.
I have no problems with him being on the board as a contributor. Being that Leon has already banned him from the BST, I think it becomes up to each individual here to determine if they wish to do any business with him.

Joey, no one brought your personal life into this but you. When you claimed that your various family members were dying, when your fiancé kept getting pregnant, etc., that was all personal stuff that you brought up in order to further your fraud. All I did was point out that you were still committing fraud on eBay under multiple IDs when you claim you had been clean for two years. If that makes me a bad guy to you, I don't care. Do you actually think anyone here cares what you think of them? And "manning up" isn't manning up when you only apologize after getting caught -- again.

As for letting a guy stay on this forum who has lied so often to so many people, who has defrauded Net 54 members (even if Joey doesn't know what the word "fraud" means), who sends harassing PMs, who stiffed auction houses, who has been kicked off eBay more times than he can count, who evades his BST ban by privately contacting Net 54 members to buy his stuff, well, if this is the kind of guy we want here then you have exactly the kind of forum you deserve. I can't believe that I'm the only one who wants better.

Harassing emails???? What have you been doing to me this whole time? And ask the people on here who ive sold things to. Ask them about their experience and see what they say. Jeff being a lawyer has really messed with your head. Everyone does dumb sh*t sometimes in their life, sometimes more than once if you can believe that. You obviously feel compelled to be the "hero" in all this like youre personally after me for nothing I did to you. Im a fairly new collector and I got somewhat obsessed and compulsive with it because its something I really enjoy. If someone admits they have a problem dont be a d*ckhead and keep kicking them while their down. Do you not believe drug addicts can recover? Damn dude you must not have any type of heart

Numerous people wrote to me about being abused by you recently. None of them wanted to be exposed because they didn't want to get harassed by you anymore.

Again everyone besides Jeff Im sorry for my behavior.

Ultimately, regardless of what we "want," it's up to Leon to decide who stays and who goes. I agree with all that it's a shame Joey has had these issues and it's a shame that people were hurt by those issues. I think this thread will certainly serve as a cautionary tale for all those who are deciding whether or not to do business with him. As far as harassing PMs, I think if Leon threw everyone off who ever sent an inappropriate email/message, we would have a very small board.

It's not that I don't want as good a board as possible, it's just that my personal experience with Joey has been very different than many others'.

Why, because I'm the only guy you didn't rip off?

"As far as harassing PMs, I think if Leon threw everyone off who ever sent an inappropriate email/message, we would have a very small board."

I very much doubt this is true, judging by the type of people here. I would guess it's a lot closer to a relatively small fraction. I suppose it's a definitional thing, but if we are talking about graphic PMs like the one Jeff posted, again, I very much doubt most people have sent anything like that.

Peter- Im sorry man but I feel like he deserved it. He came at me the wrong way and went out of his way to attack me. Im not one to back down. Whether I said it through a pm or in person it still wouldve happened. If he wouldve came at me different and actually let me explain then it wouldve been a different story. he doesnt know me one bit and I wouldve been more than happy to talk to him one on one but he wanted to be a jerk. Im done addressing Jeff because its pointless. But the rest of you im apologizing to

You're "manning up", you "don't back down." For such a tough guy, for such a manly man, you can't pay your bills and you hide behind your aunt's cancer and under your pregnant girlfriend's skirt. You know what being a man is? Honoring your promises and paying what you owe. Try it sometime.

You are more than likely correct, but there have been some pretty visible arguments here that got very very personal, both on the public board and in PM from what was reported. From what I can tell, very few of those people were ever kicked off.

Did any of those people also have 20 eBay IDs and defraud the owner of Net 54?

Don't know, but some pretty nasty stuff was exchanged.
Edit: Despite those episodes, I'm glad those people weren't kicked off the board as they were and continue to be valuable contributors to the board.

As I said, it's Leon prerogative to ban/suspend/reprimand as he sees fit, as this is his board. If I were defrauded, I would certainly feel the person should be banned, so I understand where those people are coming from. Perhaps I am just lucky in that my experience has been different.

I've obviously always felt different about fraud in the hobby. Whether I was the one being defrauded is not the determining factor for me in determining to stand up against the fraudster; instead it was whether anyone in the hobby was defrauded.

Will 'ignore' block PM contact? If so, I don't see the problem with PM verbiage that goes beyond what's acceptable in the forum. If it results in the recipient putting you on ignore, you've probably ended up with the correct result.

This isn't a black and white issue. As always, my goal is to continue to allow members on the board as much as possible but also have a safe environment, especially in the transaction areas. It has always been that way as long as I have been moderating. That being said, I prefer members not harass other members in PMs.

Joey- please don't PM Jeff anymore and he won't PM you.


I don't remember being defrauded by Joey. I won't go into specifics but there was one auction issue and it wasn't a big deal. It solidified my position/thinking though....

That's about all I have to say for now.....thanks

Jeff,
Please understand that I am not defending his behavior. Obviously, defrauding anyone is wrong. I am merely saying that I would not be against his continuing to be on the board without BST privleges. If Leon decides otherwise, I would understand and support his decision as well.

Leon- no problem at all. I will leave it alone.

P.s i do pay my bills but youre right about paying what i owe. And by the way my fiance looks very good in a skirt but i get your point

He has all valid points.....

He does but the way he went about it was why i said what i said to him in a pm

Joey, it's necessary for people to be called out in public on a forum and not personally in a PM. The reason is that the lies can't hide behind a personal conversation. I applaud Jeff for bringing your actions to light. I have an ebay account and I have now blocked you from bidding. It is personal. You can't keep affecting others and say "it's nothing personal". Sorry. Doesn't work that way.

On this forum and other forums, problems are brought to the group and solved on a group level in a way that couldn't have happened in a one on one conversation. This is true for good hobby moments like figuring out a new card set or face in a crowd and shitty hobby moments like you and your situation.

It's not my call but having you on the board is probably adding to your problems rather than helping them. I see no reason why talking about something you obsess over is good for you. You come on here, talk about photos and then go on ebay and hit BIN and don't pay for them. Seems like a bad combo to me.

Finding a way to talk about the hobby and not always feel compelled to buy something is what im working towards. Its getting those moments under control that i havent figured out yet.

So, to clarify, Jeff made all valid points, but because he made those points in a way that you did not like, you felt justified in attacking him via PM, and then apologizing (twice) to everyone on the board EXCEPT Jeff?

A few thoughts :

1 - It seems to me that if apologies were given out in the order in which they were deserved, Jeff would be way up towards the top.

2 - As for dead and dying relatives, we all either have, or will have, those so they garner no sympathy from me when it comes to bills being paid, or not paid, as the case may be.

3 - In regards to pregnant fiances, I shudder to think what kind of child will be raised in household where dad causes this much drama on a baseball card blog.

4 - Pay any money that you owe. Stop buying more stuff. Start a college fund for your kid. Don't tell me that (what's left of) your collection is the college fund, put money in a bank, there is no risk of it being stolen by the neighbors, or anybody else.

5 - Get off the blogs and start being an adult.

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong, insert smiley face here,
Doug

Its my opinion that to benefit fully from membership on this board one has to trust others and in turn be trustworthy. I recently completed a photo trade that required that I send some valuable items to a stranger who lived on the other side of the country. I didn't hesitate. I know that the other party didn't either. Its amazes me that such transactions happen frequently here without an issue. There is an odd fellowship that exists among the members of this online community and its pillars are a kindred passion, knowledge, and trust. I appreciate Jeff's efforts to ensure that members are held accountable by calling them out. That being said I have no problem with Joey remaining on the board. The damage he has done to himself far outweighs any he has done to others. This is proof once again that a reputation once tarnished can never be repaired. Its very obvious how important this board is to Joey. Unfortunately no matter how sincere his apologies are of how hard he tries to repair his reputation many here will always view him with a jaundiced eye.

While I respect Jeff for always consistently maintaining a tough stance and fighting against shilling and detrimental parts of the hobby, there is no question to me, at least, that when he sets his sights on someone, his language often leaves something to be desired. It seems that he purposely tries to insult and inflame the person that he is attacking, and there would be better ways to accomplish what he is trying to do, but it is what it is.

Joey, you have admitted your faults, and apologized profusely in a public forum, which still must've taken some courage. However, you should know that admitting a problem and actively doing something about it are two very different things. And when you have a history of these issues, they can follow you around for a very long time, as you can see from this thread. You can walk the straight and narrow path, but there will still always be people who will bring up your past. And if you continue to not pay when you agree to purchase an item, that will only give further ammunition to your detractors. You can say to yourself that you're not really hurting anyone because they still have their item, and you never took any money from them. However, it will continue to stain your reputation. No one will take you at your word or trust you, and there will continue to be threads such as this where people will continue to heap loads and loads of misery towards you. You can only apologize so long before everyone will simply tune you out completely.

I know you have had a run of bad situations, and I hope that you can dig yourself out of this. Sometimes it is just a series of small steps where you can work yourself back to having the life you want to have rather than letting things overwhelm you. I enjoyed many of the posts you had on the forum especially in vintage photography and seeing the knowledge you've accumulated and shared. I hope that you can come back to being a contributing member of this board soon. Take care.

So my language to Joey "leaves something to be desired" but Joey's to me -- for simply exposing his recent fraud -- does not merit a response from you? That makes sense.

And the idea that because Joey continues to apologize profusely takes courage is laughable. He continues to defraud, continues to lie about it, gets caught -- and knows that if he just apologizes he'll be given yet ANOTHER chance. You think that's courageous? Seriously? The guy has the morals of a flea. Courage? LOLOL

So you paid all the people you stiffed on eBay this year? Did you pay Leon for the auction item of his you won and didn't pay for? And you "do pay [your] bills" but not "pay[] what [you] owe?" Do you not understand those concepts are one in the same?

Do recovering alcoholics talk about how much fun it is to get plastered or which drink and/or bar is their favorite? You need to get away from the temptation. You obviously have an issue with the multiple ID's and non payments. Getting kicked off of the BST here should be a wake up call man.

Take the time you would normally spend on this board to do something constructive. You may or may not have a baby on the way, focus on that.

Good luck

That's crap.

Gary, with all due respect to you, it took as much "courage" for him to do that, as it is taking for me to type this.

Doug

Maybe Gary got confused about the meaning of the word "courage" with Memorial Day coming up and all.

And Gary, the "past" you claim I brought up about Joey occurred in April of 2014 when he was still committing fraud on eBay. He also lied repeatedly in this thread, claiming he's been on the straight and narrow for two years when dozens of Net 54 members know first hand that this is not true. Is the past which includes the previous few days not fair game when judging someone's character?

Joey- this is my first post on this thread, but after reading it in its entirety, you need to walk away from this hobby and get some professional help. Saying we all make mistakes is completely lame and absolute bullshit. I'm not going to comment on your home robbery, I have absolutely no idea if it's true or not, but the way you have conducted business is entirely unacceptable. If you think you have OCD see a shrink. But you should not be participating in this hobby until you get your shit worked out.

Joey, I personally feel the same way bout the Hobby. But, I just lost another job, tho this one was expected, and just have to reign in buying. you need to know when NOT to do things you can't follow up on. Its hard, yes, but you have to. you have likely lost trust of board members on here also for this whole thread. I'm sorry for your issues, but keep in mind being honest and smart in the way you operate is the way to go. Best of luck, but you need to step back from the hobby until u can get this stuff under control.

I've changed my mind. I think Joey should be banned...right after Leon runs a background check and credit check on every member here.

Background check: This one is easy. Anybody that's ever been arrested can no longer participate on the forum.

Credit check: There's a bit more to this one. The only accusation that Joey is guilty of (even by his own admission) is not paying for eBay purchases. Is that fraud? Nope. Is it wrong? Absolutely (and I'm not making excuses for it)!!! But I would be willing to bet that if Leon ran a credit check of every board member, there would be several members that never paid a bill - credit card bill, old utility bill, something. What's worse, not paying for an eBay item that you never took possession of, or not paying a credit card bill or utility bill for a product that you did take possession of or a service that you used? So, anybody with any derogatory marks on their credit report would no longer be able to participate on the forum.

Yup, those should be a pre-requisite to join the forum and all existing members should have to comply. Let's see how many members are left after that. I’ll go first!!!

Why is it when anyone gets caught w/ their hand in the cookie jar, they play the role of the victim?
We all would love to buy cards & collectibles as we all have a passion for them, but we have to stay within our budget.
If you can't afford to buy something, then don't bid or click the Buy It Now.
Its pretty simple.

David, you're smarter than this.

Can we all get back to discussing our passions for baseball?

A beligerent, loudmouth, dime a dozen defense attorney (who's constantly looking for the attention that he lacks) is giving lectures on human moral as it pertains to telling the truth and never lying????? Hahaha, oh that's rich!

Seriously though Jeff it's gotta be tough for you everyday dealing with being so f*cking cool and all isn't it?......I would bet you're the coolest guy you know......:cool:

Hey, it's Glenn Willrich, another Net 54 fraudster who was allowed back onto Net 54 after committing fraud and threatening members!

Interesting comment. Now this has degenerated to a lawyer bashing thread? Great. Jeffrey Lichtman is looking for attention? I do not know Jeff personally and never had any business dealings with him. I do know him by reputation as I am also a criminal defense attorney. While I am of the small town. "dime a dozen" "loudmouth" variety myself, Jeff Lichtman is one of the best, well-known and successful criminal defense attorneys in the greatest city in the world. He has been on TV and radio numerous times and gets plenty of attention for the great work that he does. He certainly does not need to seek attention here.

But he is a belligerent loudmouth, no? :D:D

To some extent, it is part of the job.:D

Jeff,

For what it's worth, I appreciate you efforts and commitment to protecting a great hobby.

Thanks.



P.S. over the years I've come to realize that you're not the Jeff Lichtman that I see in the advertisements in the Subway. :)

Ugh. Praise Jesus.

So "Bud" who was defending Glenn was Glenn all along? :confused:

Glenn- As far as I know Jeff is very honest. Actually he is brutally honest. As far as I know you aren't. I wouldn't go off too much on him.

I still like to think it's him :)

agreed

thought I would lighten the mood here. Baseball and a good looking girl, what else could a guy ask for? (well, for me its a Mets winning season)

I was going to post something like this, but Barry beat me to it. I think banning Joey is the proper avenue here. Banning him won't give him the opportunity to defraud people and will protect the community as a whole. This is beginning to appear more and more like a money grab. Fool me once...

Agreed. A beautiful woman is taking me to a game tomorrow night. How lucky is that?

more lucky than me.

Let me start off by saying that I think Joey bought a photo off of me a few months ago. He paid in a timely fashion and I left positive feedback. But it does annoy me to hear he hasn't paid a bunch of other sellers. And then just brushes it off with the whole "I have a problem and I'm working on it" schtick. Fine, you're working on it. Good luck with that.

But it's not just your problem. Some might say, no harm, no foul, the seller will just relist. Not that simple. Aside from the time wasted waiting for a non-payer to pay (and time is money, as they say), then having to file a claim and wait for the ebay idiots to refund your fees, I've found that once an auction item sells at a certain price and it isn't paid for, it inevitably does worse the next time it's listed. Often MUCH worse. And the second-chance offer for the next highest bidder is a waste of time. No one ever accepts in my experience. People are always suspicious it's a scam, or there's something wrong with the item. So a photo that maybe sold for $150 to a non-payer is relisted, but because it's now "tainted" in some bidders' eyes, it only sells for $100 next time. So the seller's out 50 bucks, plus time wasted, plus annoyance. Now multiply that by the dozens of instances where it appears Joey didn't pay. He might have cost sellers hundreds of dollars, or even into the thousands.

I hope you get yourself together, Joey, I honestly do. But just know that your actions have real consequences. If you can't pay, don't bid. If you can't pay your bills, don't bid. Some of us do ebay as a second job so we CAN pay our bills. I know I do. I enjoy ebay and selling, but stuff like this is endlessly frustrating as a seller.

Rob

100% agree with the 2nd chance offer, I never except them even if I need the item. I am always worried about some kind of shill bidding going on. This recently happened to me I lost out on a Willie Mays signed Jersey (forgot what it went for) but I got into a bidding war with another bidder (with low feedback) and he won the item for like $2 over my max bid. (this is after bidding each other up $50 in a 3 min span). Anyway about an hour after the auction I get a 2nd chance offer on it. I declined.

I do not condone what Joey has done one bit, whether it was the nonpayment of items that he contractually agreed to purchase or the continuous lying to try to cover his tracks. However, I think it does take some courage to admit your mistakes even on a public internet forum like this. There have been some fairly inflamed threads on this board in the past, and some shady characters, and Adrian, of course. I could be wrong, but I don't remember anyone apologizing for their actions in any of those threads. If it were that easy to just fall on your sword, it would have been done more often in the past. In addition, I believe the first step in many addiction treatment programs such as AA is to admit you have a problem. If admitting you have a problem were not important, it would not be the first step.

Again, I realize that there is a vast difference between talk and actions. Joey could very well be publicly saying he has a problem, but not truly admitting it to himself. Therefore, there is no question that he has further to go. He cannot continue to do what he's done, and he definitely cannot continue to compulsively lie. I hope that he can turn things around in the future.

On the internet, apologizing is like throwing out a piece of raw meat.

(I still can't believe Barry said "shit")

Ban him!! :D:D

Jeff, I applaud your Net54 (and other venues) battle against fraud. What I've seen is that any time you bring up fraud, you immediately get morons crawling out of the woodwork. Once a moron enters the conversation, more join, then you find them latching onto more intelligent forum members who simply want to take a bite out of your butt for other discussions that didn't end the way they wanted. It's formulaic.

It's a thankless, unwinnable effort, but still appreciated by many of us. Every time I hook horns with a moron I get plenty of email and P.M. support, as you've described, but most forum members are savvy enough to realize that you can't win such battles, so they stay out of it publicly. That's what you are up against, but the support is definitely there.

He lied during this very thread. He did not admit he had yet another recent problem until after he was forced to after being confronted with many of his phony eBay IDs. Does that strike you as someone who is admitting he has a problem? And the only reason he keeps apologizing year after year is because there is a segment of Net 54 which keeps falling for it. The fact is, his fraud of two years ago has continued unabated as evidenced by the dates of his negative feedback. He lied then and has continued to lie -- he just threw out a phony apology back then to allow himself some breathing room until he could start lying again.

As for his profile in courage, he lies about cancer, pregnancy, death and unemployment. Courage? He's the most cowardly guy imaginable.

For the record I am very much in support of Jeff's (hi Jeff) crusade on fraud. I agree completely with what Runscott just said too.

You're 100 percent right on this. Someone gets his feelings hurt in another thread, suddenly he's supporting Joey's ludicrous position.

I think if it can be proven that Joey has tried to circumvent his ban from the B/S/T area by contacting board members through pm's to buy, sell and/or trade then he should be banned. Isn't the whole point of banning him from the B/S/T area to keep him from transacting with this board's membership?

What !?!?!?! 2 people agreeing with me?

Quitting while I'm ahead - see you all tomorrow.

At least I spelled it correctly.

Imho
 

Often, we, as a forum, take a very long time to decide what to do in the cauldron of problematic difficulties. Often, it is quite a mix of things:
genuine concern for person(s) involved, a call for appropriate justice, a longing for a return to enlightening hobby discussions, and, even, a desire to win or achieve 'something' at all costs. This discussion is surely such a mix.
Many of us have seen this for well over a decade on this board.
At this juncture, I would hope that we would realize that it is time to move forward
as the community of vintage baseball hobbyists that we are and recognize
that activities which effectuate the dissolution of trust, particularly financial
trust, have no place on this board. Removal of all board privileges at this point
would be a positive step forward toward healing for both this board and the
person at issue.
all the best,
barry

Hi Barry,
I have to say that is one of the most eloquent posts I have ever read on this forum. As I was reading it, I felt like you were channeling Thomas Jefferson when he was writing the Declaration of Independence.
" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation"
It was a joy to read as most people don't write like that anymore.
Thanks,
Mark

BTW, as Memorial Day approaches, I think of these great heroes. If anyone here has not read the Declaration, I encourage you to do so. It is a spectacularly beautiful document that allows all to appreciate how incredible the English language can be in the hands of a master writer like Jefferson.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Leon- I accept the decision to be banned if thats what everyone wants. Theres no point of being a member on here if the majority of people want me out. I have things i need to fix before i can ever think of being accepted on this forum. I let myself down and my personal ebay issues will be my main focus.

Jeff- before attacking someone and going on this personal vendetta look in the mirror and say " i dont have to be a douche bag" and then address me correctly. Your personal attacks and cheap shots are bullsh*t. I feel bad for your kids if they spill juice on the floor.

Your pattern is obvious and shows no sign of changing.

Thanks for the chuckle! :D

I didn't realize that if one was banned from here, that one had a choice to accept it or not!

Lol

Joey, why don't you stop instigating more on here by replying? Just a thought.

I think Joey should be suspended from the Board unless and until he gets his problem under control. Failing to follow through on purchases, apparently on many occasions, is bad enough. Vile attacks on a Board member who discloses this information for the benefit of everyone in the hobby pushes this case over the line in my view.

Hey Joey
 

The jerk store called and their running out of you!

Oh yeah? well I had sex with your wife

His wife is in a coma.:)

Everybody has their own little opinions, and it all gets homogenised, and you lose the whole edge of it. I'm going with jerk store! Jerk store is the line! Jerk store!

Joey, I have a "personal vendetta" against fraudsters in our hobby. Why you seem to think this is anything but that is lost on me.

And my kids aren't greasy scumbags who were raised to lie and cheat the way you were, so don't worry about them. If you ever get your imaginary fiancé pregnant after getting an imaginary job, I only hope that you can set a better example for your kids than you have on Net 54, eBay and the various other places you've disgraced yourself.

I think someone has hijacked Barry's ID. First "shit" now this. :D

Peter- you are aware that posts 234-236 were a Seinfeld bit. Just a little levity after a wearisome thread.