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I take no offense, and I don't mind the fun, but I do think it is critical to get at the heart of what people expect from their 100+ year old cardboard. |
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For me the line is easy the day a glass of tap water can make stains like these disappear, and the day items like this are sold with disclosure about the cleaning undergone be sure to let me know. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=132902 Otherwise you are doing something to alter the appearance of the card found and therefore increasing its value with secrecy which to me is not on the up and up. Also if our hobby was so excepting of this it would be disclosed all the time hmmm I wonder why it's never mentioned in auction write ups? Just because one may spread icing on a turd doesn’t make it chocolate cake in my book regardless if I can taste the difference or not. :) Cheers, John |
Just because one may spread icing on a turd doesn’t make it chocolate cake in my book regardless if I can taste the difference or not. :)
Cheers, John[/QUOTE] Please do not try this at home! Or anywhere.... |
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There goes my Net54 cookbook deal... |
This is perfect. How does what you said here apply differently when water is used:
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Towle
H2O2 = hydrogen peroxide
H2O = water |
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Okay, where were we? |
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This conversation is over, but if we are going to talk in the future, I would prefer to be able to address you by your name. Thanks, Scott |
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Are you saying you have cleaned some of your cards with warm H20 in the past and had no issues? Does not seem right that you are ok with removing stains with water regardless of how much or little of the stain "you think" will be removed... You can not possibly know how much stain would be removed until you are done. I can recall over the years people posting about (how can I clean) my card and then posting the results as they turned out - then people say great job etc.... I can recall things like distilled water, drop of dawn, wrap in paper towel place in book etc... I do not recall people flipping out about it - instead handing out Kudos....? |
Sorry, Paul M. is my name. I thought you knew that. You and I have exchanged several personal emails over the years -- at least five times between 2005 and 2012.
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Soaking a card in water doesn’t clean cards to the extent of the example posted above. This is what some of us myself included have issues with in terms of chemicals and solvents used by Dick. Soaking some OJ’s from a scrap book like Jay did with the Cambridge collection still leaves cards that have flaws and would grade likewise. They just won’t be attached too old nasty 8.5x 11 sheets of paper anymore. However having chemicals applied to remove any trace of residue or brighten a card beyond its dingy dirty state without some sort of disclosure like the example above is not on the up and up. Hence why it’s not mentioned and hidden 99% of the time. This exactly what Paragon did in my example above no mention in print about the cleaning. Once caught hand deep in the cookie jar they quickly changed the online description. Does this seem like something folks do since everyone is so open to this in our hobby and its so harmless and accepted? http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ages/plank.jpg So now that I have outlined my simple position once again. Please help me understand how tap water was used to remove the stains from the card above? Or what harmless water like substance was used and why it wasn’t disclosed since it's harmless? Don't know why this harmless no worse than water cleaning of Plank wasn't disclosed in the write up I'll give you a hint.... :) http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ding-money.jpg Cheers, John |
John,
Respectfully, I think your argument boils down to "If water would remove the stain, then it is okay to use and it is not deceptive to hide disclosure." Did I get that correctly? For what it's worth, I agree with this statement. But, if you are also saying "I would only use water to remove the stain even if a chemical would have the same impact as water would" then I just don't know why you would draw the line at the chemical, as opposed to the impact on the card. To me the impact on the card is paramount, and I do not know how I would ever determine whether water or a chemical would have dissimilar effects on the same stain. I am not trying to be obtuse here. Paul M. |
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http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...bsize/Seal.jpg You can still clearly make out where it was once glued..."gone with the stain" far from it.... Cheers, John |
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Cheers, John |
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/F_8RH2hiqMQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
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I think I've now beaten my dead horse enough, but at least I feel better having talked it through. :D |
My mom always cleaned my cards with this. :D:D:D
http://photos.imageevent.com/rgold/ebay/image_8.jpg |
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However if I bought a 20k card from you and got before images down the road from someone else, and they said you know Paul bought that card like this and then worked some magic on it. To find out you sold it to me with no mention of the cleaning water/chemical whatever it would be the last transaction I would do with you. To me if this is so innocent and harmless why would anyone choose to omit. Cheers, John |
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As you have mentioned, water doesn't remove everything - I have never had it completely remove a stain, or even have much impact on a stain; however, it does take off old tobacco, most dirt, and paper affixed by water-based glue. And I think that's good. As an aside, I have a few great baseball albumen images with horribly disfigured mounts - I'm looking for similar mounts in better condition with uninteresting pictures and plan to do a transplant. I would disclose the transplant when sold. |
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I once heard about this secret mud that would be dug from a river bank by umpires and they would rub onto baseball cards as a protective coating... I have nothing to back this up though...
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http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...9617958519.jpg |
I found these instruction for using Hydrogen Peroxide, and thought I would share.
http://rocketbelts.americanrocketman...DE_WARNING.gif Also note - if you are using this product to clean vintage baseball cards, please be sure to remove one Oxygen molecule for each two Hydrogens. If you get confused and instead accidentally remove one Hydrogen for each Oxygen, the result will be Hydroperoxyl, which is responsible for the destruction of ozone in the stratosphere. Don't get confused and end up accidentally destroying ozone in the stratosphere. |
addressing a single issue
it's so much a personal call as to where the line gets drawn. The "hobby" seems most accepting of soaking - the rest not so much.
It's not OK to do anything to a card. It's OK to soak a card in water to remove it from something. It's OK to soak a card in another solution to accomplish the task. It's OK to soak a card in water to remove surface glue or paper remains. It's OK to soak a card in another solution to do the same thing. It's OK to soak a card in water to remove a stain. It's OK to soak a card in another solution that will do the same thing. Water contains "chemicals". Water can also leave a stain and react with inks and fibers. How it will impact the future of the card is unknown but everything degrades with time. Without soaking most cards would still be in albums. Some people might think that isn't a bad thing. We are temporary keepers of this "stuff". I try and leave everything as I found it unless it's rapidly degrading or the problem is such that it prevents my enjoyment of the aesthetic elements. Everything degrades over time - I'm on "the back nine" and showing some stains myself but I wouldn't want to wittingly be the root cause of accelerating the decline of myself or stuff. I have soaked cards in distilled water and that's about as far as I am comfortable going. I haven't seen evidence 20 years later that the few cards I still have from then are any different. I have restored/conserved 2/3 posters and a tin sign. Restoration of such items is accepted and often encouraged - cards not so much..... While the issues surrounding disclosure are thought provoking (personal responsibility) as are the "if you can't see it how do you know it's there?" arguements - I assume most of my cards have been soaked in some solution and rely on my experience to foster the self preserving belief that nearly all are unaltered otherwise. I'm fine with that. Mostly these days I find myself grappling with the issues of personal freedom and the moral and ethical implications of making something available in the marketplace that likely will be used in a deceptive manner (recent threads on flips and empty slabs comes to mind). I have to rely on my core belief that there's no reason Dick can't offer such a service that enables others to enjoy their cards in whatever form and condition they want? I have a friend who is a board member here. He collects early base ball and he loves his cards. He took a marker and colored all the edges of his Mayo's becuse he liked the uniformity. It kills me - but they're his cards. That others have and likely will continue to use the service and not disclose what was done to enhance a particular card is troublesome but out of our control. I can only be responsible for myself and that's enough of a struggle. I like that DT has come here (albeit with an expected outcome that he will do more business) and explained his position. Like the subject of TPG this is a divisive topic. I appreciate when threads like this come up as it helps me to define and redefine how I feel........ |
I may be repeating something already said, but water is a chemical. It's also the most widely used solvent there is. If you look up water in a chemistry book it will tell you water is called the universal solvent because more substances dissolve in water than in any other chemical. So to say I would never soak my card in a chemical, but soaking a card off a page in water is ok, is a contradiction. Your just taking a less aggressive approach.
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Okay, Thanks. |
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I actually agree with his stance on water being the universal solvent. Having said that, I understand that water is delivered (or collected, plumbed, etc.) differently by people, depending where they are. This likely presents in a fashion most varied when discussing "tap" water. It appears that you know more about chemistry than some of us. Please explain why the "chemical" water I drink when in Philadelphia is different than the distilled water I buy at the grocery store. I truly do respect you (and always have) and sincerely want your opinion on this. Best regards, Eric |
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http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...huge/plank.jpg Sure I guess one could say a pocket knife is a self defense weapon...but I don't think it would be hypocritical stance to say a gun has a bit more punch compared to grandpa's Swiss Army with a can opener. To me that's difference here from a little water to Billy Mays Towle. http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...mimages/i2.jpg P.S. Eric maybe it is our Philadelphia water. :) |
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I don't think of water as a chemical. I think of substances that are synthesized for particular purposes as chemicals. But whatever. Who wants to defend Towle's removal of wrinkles, any takers?
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Philly water drawn from the Schuylkill may very well be the most toxic substance on the planet. Soaking anything in Schuylkill Punch is a bad idea. And not disclosing such a soak should be downright criminal. Best regards, Eric |
Gone with the stain. Dick Towle
Soaking a card from a notebook, to me is the same as removing a card from a GIA slab. I'm simply freeing it from a holder. One requires a hammer the other water. I'm not in any way trying to improve the card other then removing it from the page/remove the page from it. Is that hypocritical?
My issue is using a man made, specially designed chemical to remove stains, residue and make whites pop. Pressing corners/wrinkles & trimming arealso meant to deceive that a card has survived in a much nicer condition then it truly has. Edited. I've tried it once, just to see what happens. Vid http://youtu.be/y1QFe7T8zK8 |
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I will not bite on defending Dick. However, I will say that water is a chemical...with a pH very close to 7. Whatever solution he uses is close to that, chemically. Best, Eric |
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Even funnier over the years there have been countless threads posting dirty items from eBay or previous auctions selling in new auctions all cleaned up etc. I don’t seem to remember the “no big deal” vibe from those threads. :) Cheers, John |
NM
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PSA doesn't like chemicals either. even if they can't detect them.
N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains. |
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Nice video....I have done that many times. One of the times I remember distinctly was from an original find that I called the Trucker Boy Find. Long story but it was a west coast collection...this card had paper similar to that card in the youtube video, over about 20% of the upper back. http://luckeycards.com/pt2123weaver.jpg |
I guess I just don't see the act as different.
Some kid puts a card in a notebook with water based glue 100 years ago to display it, and somewhat to protect it. I have SGC glue two pieces of plastic around my cards for the same reasons. Removing them, to me is not trying to deceive anyone. |
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I mix a little hydrogen peroxide with mine. Those extra atoms rev me up.
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Calling something "chemical" in the purely scientific sense is meaningless in normal conversation. Can anyone name any substance or solution that isnt chemical? Of course water is chemical. So is air. So is everything else. When you get down to it, the sun is LESS likely to rise in the eastern sky tomorrow than for us to find a substance or solution that isnt chemical.
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I took 3 chemistry classes in high school, and 8 in college. I am not a chemist. My daughter ran some tests on tap water in Atlanta and told me that it was unfit to drink. The tap water in Seattle is incredibly drinkable. I also know that the bottled water you buy in the store is often no more pure than your local tap water, but I have no idea what you are drinking in Philadelphia. Personally, I drink tap water unless it tastes bad or someone tells me it is unsafe. I don't like the taste of 'soft' water. That's all I know, and water doesn't interest me enough for me to do additional research. Oh yeah, it has one less 'H' than Hydrogen Peroxide, and that makes a really big difference if you are debating on which one to drink. |
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Can anyone disagree with that? |
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eric
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(This thread has it all) |
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Water is a chemical and a solvent like other solvents. They all behave differently. Water can be extremely dangerous and reactive in certain situations. As I mentioned before, the process of soaking in water or soaking in Towle solution is detectable. It might be cost prohibitive for the grading companies to detect it, but it is detectable. |
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Common sense tells most of us that water is well, sort of safe. It washes stuff off, wood is basically made of water, and paper is made from wood, etc., etc. But let's not let common sense confuse the issue. After all, water is a chemical. |
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Water is a chemical. Bleach is a chemical. Therefore water is bleach. Or, at least, there is no difference between soaking a card in water and bleaching a card. QED.
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FWIW, water is not really a chemical, it's an compound - a combination of two or more elements (hydrogen and oxygen).
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Shit just got real! |
I have said for a while that I believe a lot of high grade cards were soaked from albums. Who cares? In a perfect world this stuff should be disclosed, but it rarely is. To me, right or wrong, it is just a part of the hobby.
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Yo yo Mr. White
Note to auction houses and sellers, feel free to clean up cards with solvents and chemicals no need to disclose to collectors as long as nobody can tell. Sell away...
But god help you if you get your chemistry notes wrong. :D It's like a Breaking Bad episode up in here. :) Cheers, John |
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One of the best ever! |
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That is entirely possible. However, I recently purchased an N28 that was removed from an album and the corners were pretty nice. |
Perhaps Dick and "gone with the stain" work under a shell company...
http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ared/image.jpg |
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peter s
fabas indulcet fames.
best, barry |
geez
try and save a guys life and what happens :-)
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Hey Barry
Lots opinions all over the place |
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