The rule needs to read: In a case like this the runner is safe and returns to the original base (in this case 3rd). Only if the umpires rule there was intent then the runner is awarded the next base even if thrown out.
Just my thought. I am neither a Red Sox nor Cardinals fan, but to end a World Series game like this?

I despise the Cardinals with every fiber of my being, but the call was correct. Buzzard's Luck for Middlebrooks but the rule is the rule. If they don't apply it then it isn't fair to the Cardinals.

I'd love to know what the Cardinals brass have been sacrificing at their Satanic altar beneath their stadium all these years. I'd send some to Chicago...

secret
 

secret

Does anyone know if the runner has to touch home plate in that situation? I don't believe Craig did. I know he's awarded home plate on the obstruction call, but isn't it just like a walk off where he needs to make contact with the plate? Just curious.

Fredyoung,

Sucks for you as a Red Sox fan HOWEVER if the rule isn't written like it is then what is to keep Middlebrooks from sticking his leg out and tripping Craig once Middlebrooks sees that the ball is down in the bull pen and Craig is going to easily score the winning run?

Face it, if Middlebrooks does what he did then interference is going to be called and the Cardinals win the game. If Middlebrooks lays on the ground motionless, Craig steps over him and runs unimpeded to home plate and the Cardinals win the game.

David

Iron horse,

On fangraphs, they posted a pole about this play and used rule 7.whatever as the guide. However, that is the wrong rule to use. On the MLB network, they showed the umpires' interview and also Joe Torre from the Commish's office. They used rule 2.whatever which deals with interference calls. Rule 7.whatever only deals with what should happen after interference has been called. Two different rules addressing two different things.

David

I don't know the specific rule but his right foot did graze the plate.

Sacrifices
 

Squirrels

I am pretty sure Middlebrooks threw his legs up on purpose.

And why not, he had nothing to lose, as Craig scores easily if he doesn't try to do something.

How about actually calling the alleged obstruction when it takes place instead of after the runner is thrown out at home? They have only played three games and the umpiring of DeMuth has to seriously be questioned.

I believe obstruction is a delayed dead ball call. If the runner is safe, the obstruction is waived. I'm pulling for the Red Sox and don't like the outcome, but the umpire made the correct call.

Actually, i am not sure his foot grazed the plate. i just paused it and watched in slow-mo. unless he stood up and stepped on the plate (the camera cut away from the plate after the slide).

That's the way I am seeing it also. I am sure it doesn't matter because obstruction was called and it is an awarded base. I doubt it can be appealed and if it was, he would probably just have to step on the base to end the game.

Sox fan here, the rule is what it is kind of like the end of the Pats/Jets last Sunday. Not real impressed with this ump. crew, which I think is ranked among the bottom quarter in the majors. The strike zone once again was all over the place. Salty you aren`t J Bench and Middlebrooks has to take 1 step off the bag and catch that throw. Sox and Boucholtz tonite, have to get 6+ from him as bullpen is running out of gas. P S thought Napoli couild have been p h`ed in the 9`th but we`ll see tonite. I think the Sox tie it up and Mon is the swing game of the series !! GO SOX !!

Someone actually just explained this to me...It didn't matter if he touched home plate or not.

Obstruction was called...the runner was tagged before he touched home, and the home plate umpire made the decision that Craig would have scored if it wasn't for the obstruction. So he does not have to touch the plate, he was "awarded" the run.

3B umpire called it immediately, signaling to the home plate umpire. Joyce did a good job of keeping track of both the ball as it went into left field and the action around the bag.

Bill

Bush league play by Will. He purposely put his feet up to stop craig.

Fyi, this has nothing to do with the incident of interference. Craig could have stopped off at Starbucks and taken in a movie, it would not matter. Obstruction is obstruction. What happens after the fact means nothing, except to us crazed fans....what a game. Definitely one for the ages. The whole game was a war. Kudos to both teams.

That is what I assumed, thank you for confirming. Obviously, I have never seen a play like this before!

No, how about attaching electrodes to Saltalamachia's brain so he can be electrocuted every time he thinks throwing the ball is a good idea. His arm is a f***ing liability out there.

WRONG!

The runner actually tripped over Will's upper leg/hip area & then stumbled, putting his hand on Will's back to catch himself! If anything he helped hold Will down & his raised legs had nothing to do w/ it!

You're letting your Red Sox hatred cloud your vision & unbiased view once again!

Not quite as bush as Alex "slappy" Rodriguez.....:D


I think the call was correct. Interference happened whether intentional or not.

The rule doesn't need changing. Adding an umpire having to determine intent is not going to be better. There's just too many ways to be slick about it then claim no intent. That's not a great situation for the fielder on a play like this, but it's the best way for everyone.

I'm sad to see the Sox lose that way, but that's how the game goes sometimes.

Steve B

1985
 

For Red Sox fans who think the call was wrong, we Cardinals fans who remember October 26, 1985, can relate

I disagree. First off me being a yankee fan or my hatred for the sox have nothing to do with it considering there's tons of people who seen the same thing from seeing the play. Second did you even see the play? It's obvious that middlebrooks did it to either A. Trip craig B. Slow him down. Middlebrooks was on his stomach, so you're telling me when you're on your stomach the best way to get up is to bend your legs back towards your back. NO

I agree with you on this one. it was subtle, but it was there none-the-less. That said, Will had to try and I don't blame him.

I think there are two separate arguments here. 1)did he obstruct (or attempt to) in any way and 2) did the subtlty of the offense deserve to get called (as the deciding factor in a WS game, no less). I know a game is a game, but most officials in most sports typically let players be a hair more aggressive in championship play. To me, this is like ending a game on calling a runner safe on a second baseman's ghost tag on a double play attempt.

The biggest problem I have with the play was the weak slide made by Molina. A little more aggressive base running and the throw to third would have never happen.

Just my 2 cents.


Jantz

Totally +1. What was that? He might as well of given him a pat on the butt.

Paul,
At least he got to the bag. If it was his brother Jose he'd still be "running". :D

Conor,
What if a batted ball had nicked a runner? Is that too ticky-tack to call? A balk? Where is the line?

No need to rehash " The Call ". St. Louis could have went out and won game 7, instead they got blown out. Bird fans always hang the I - 70 Series on a " blown " call. All you had to do was win the seventh game. Spilled milk.

Jim, I don't nessesarily disagree, although neither of your examples include hard-nosed play. Neither a ball knicking a runner or a balk are comprised of two competitors fighting it out. I suppose for me, that's the line, IMO. That said, on a technical level, the call was right.

Why complain about the in obstruction call? It's done, it's over and the game went to the Cardinals - time to move on. It was a pretty good game up until that point. I think those were just two poor base running choices and the Cardinals came out on top, in spite of themselves.

What should the Sox do?

Play Napoli behind the plate and have both him and Big Papi in the liine up?

or

Play Napoli at first and sit Big Papi?

or

Play Big Papi at first and sit Napoli?

Gotta play Ortiz. He's got the hot hand.

No bad call and no need for a Game 7. Shouldn't have to win 5 games.

While I would love to see both bats in the lineup, I'd be shocked to see Napoli behind the plate. I'm more concerned with getting Nava the hell out of there. I understand he covers more ground than Gomes and Busch has a big left field, but that's a trade off I'd be willing to make. Nava's bat is dead weight out there.

The obstruction rule needs to be changed as any rule that gives the Cardinals a win can't be good.

Well you would need to change the rule that says the team that scores the most runs wins too! ;)

I cheer for the Cubs and anyone playing the Cardinals. Any day the Cards lose is a good day in my book. LOL

Unbiased opinion. As I have no rooting interest in either team. Well, I'm not too big on the Sox, but indifferent enough, that I just wanna see some good ball from both teams here.

Personally, I think the interferece call, was probably wrong. Not as a result of the umpire, but a result of the rule being completely overwritten, to the point where interpretation can come into play.. The runner having been called safe, as a result of the interference call, was definitely correct though. I only say that it shouldn't have been called, because looking at it, as a result of the play at third, I really don't think there was anything either of them could've done to avoid that contact. If anything, Craig could've avoided getting tangled up there. As far as Middlebrooks legs coming up, I really don't think he threw them up. It appeared that he tried to bounce up after the dive, and slipped.. But I'll also agree, that the contact was more in the ass area, than legs, so where the legs went should be irrelevant. I'd chalk it up as "incidental contact". And from the specifications of the rule, it appears that they were trying to say that contact as a direct result of a clean play, should not constitute interference, but it looks a bunch of idiots wrote it.

Now, given that it's written the way it's written. I'd have probably been ok whether it was called or not, because honestly, I think both would've been correct. The whole situation is pretty crappy, and shouldn't have happened.. And I fault the morons that wrote the rule the way they did. Had the thing been cut and dry, with no possible interpretations, we would've gotten the absolute correct call, with no arguments from anyone. Because I think both sides have a legit argument here.

Having said that, it's still the World Series, fellas. It was an interesting game, and they gave us something we really hadn't seen before. Let's just enjoy the series. And from a guy with no rooting interest. Go Baseball!!!

Ken, Believe me I understand the Cubs-Cards angle. Thankfully the way history has played out the Cards fans don't have to worry good or bad much about the Cubs.

Not true, the game was still there for the Cards to win, but like I said it's crying over spilled milk. Anyways, many clubs could be more successful if they would look at how the Cards run their organization. My Royals certainly could learn a thing or two. St Louis has great ownership and their ability to scout and develope talent is unsurpassed. They do it all without breaking the bank. The Cards rotation is set for the next ten years with those young arms and I expect to see a few more WS appearances as a result. Fun team to watch.

I watched the majority of Royals games and went to several - I think they are close!

I hope so Jeff. I have followed the team since 1971 when I had my second grade class picture taken with me in my Royals shirt. I have great admiration for the Cardinals who I believe are the best organization, top to bottom, in baseball. KC has missed on too many high draft picks, either poor scouting or an inability to develope the talent. Could be one of the two or both, I don't know which. Until that gets fixed it may be tough to win on a consistant basis. Great game by Lynn tonite, another young arm keeping Boston in check.

Another unreal end to a WS game! This Red Sox team is the best in baseball at shaking off a tough loss & coming out the next day w/ a clean outlook.
I'm very proud of this team if they don't win another game--(but I think they will)

Conor, you called that one right. :D

Even with the bad call St. Louis could have won. But Clark misplayed a foul pop, and Worrell crossed-up Porter and caused a passed ball.All of which preceded Iorg's hit.

Yeah, it was a terrible call, but it didn't end the game. The Cards still had their chance and couldn't get it done.

Yeah, I got half of my wish, which seemed to get job done :)

Another outstanding game. The cracks definitely showed in the rookies tonight. That unnessesarily rushed and wild throw by Bogaerts in the 8th could have been disastrous.....and Wong....oh my.

As annoying as I find Victorino, though, I'm not thrilled to see him out. He seems to always find a way to get on base. I'm just glad we get at least one more game in Boston and can get Napoli back in the mix.

Roid Sox win, so sadly up 3 games to 2.

Brock meets big Papi!

I think your missing the milkshake or the needle in that picture, not sure how he takes his roids.

Hey, There's no crying in baseball card forums

Wrong baby, Steve...you're looking for this one:

Say what you want about Papi, but 11 for 15 in the WS is epic.

As romantic as it would be to win it in 7, I'm praying the Sox take it on Wednesday. Having to explain to my wife that I can't go trick or treating with the family so I can watch a baseball game is a conversation I DON'T want to have.

I can't remember ever seeing such a dominant offensive performance as Poppi is putting on. Although the closer Kuwahara(sp) has been unreal as well! This Yankee fan sees the sox in 6.

He has been incredible.

And Ortiz was robbed of a grand slam in game 1

yes...and that!!!!

All this talk about Beltran and Ortiz's HOF credentials during the series is driving me crazy. Neither one of them are even close to being HOFers. If you're going to say, Look at what they did in the postseason, then how can you keep out Bernie Williams or Andy Pettitte, two guys who are said to fall short.

Bottom line for me is that Vlad was so far and away better than both of them and he's only talked about as being borderline.

Enough is enough Joe Buck. Neither one of them is a 300 hitter.

I agree about all the HOF talk...nonsense...and the Bostoners nicknaming Poppi Cooperstown...that's just because compared to their credentials...he appears to be HOF material. He can't help not be implicated w/PED's...just like the rest of them...and this will certainly be taken into consideration when the time comes.

His hitting, and BOTH teams pitching is just amazing. Also, the Cardinal's fan are so into the game, it seems like they are hanging on every pitch!

Was all this HOF talk a Fox post game discussion? I turn the tv off the second the last out is recorded.

They talk about it all throughout the game. If Joe Buck had been around for the 78 World Series he would have been calling Brian Doyle a HOFer too.

Comparing Ortiz to Brian Doyle? Quite a stretch. Ortiz has .952 lifetime OPS, Doyle .392 :-)

Haha I just meant the sentiment.

I know, hence the smiley. Gotta keep these things light.

But according to baseball-reference.com, an average season of Ortiz is 35 HR, 118 RBIs. The only thing that can keep him out of the hall would be steroids. As he is tested multiple times a year and he will probably play another 4-5 years, plus waiting 5 more to be HOF eligible, there is plenty of time for definitive evidence that he cheated to be presented. Absent that he's in.

I don't think he'll get in, but they'll brush past the steroids and use the fact that he was a dh and never played in the field on a regular basis as the reason, which is valid imo. That said, he is arguably the best post season hitter in the history of the game.

Neither is Williams.

Williams career .297 1257 rbi .381 obp 9053 Pa 287Hr
162 game average .297 98 .381 706 22

Ortiz career .287 1191 rbi .381 obp 8249 Pa 431 HR
162 game average .287 118 .381 679 35

Beltran .283 1327 rbi .359 obp 8949 Pa 358 HR
162 game average .283 104 .359 702 28


And a few HOF players by 162 game average
Player A .262 98 .356 656 32
Player B .298 102 .421 668 36
Player C .302 103 .384 677 36

Any guesses who A,B and C are? Looks like a "marginal" crew at best eh?

They all had longer careers, and a few off years as a result. Keep in mind Ortiz had a few partial years with MN and was also playing for a team that didn't want him to be a straight power hitter. Beltran has had a number of seasons with fewer than 100 games played as well.

Not saying Williams is marginal, despite not much power I think he'll get in eventually. Mostly benefitting from having played for some really great teams AND being a well liked player from NY. If He'd played his whole career for a small market team that won nothing I don't think he'd have a chance.
(And he's one of the few Yankees players I actually liked.)

Postseason performance matters too, and that's where some of the difference is. Ortiz has batted a bit over his average overall, but really well in WS. Beltran has also done much better postseason. Williams did rather poorly in the WS. and below his average overall.

Players AB+C are a mixed group postseason. One better, one about the same, another worse.

Steve B

Bernie Williams was an incredible clutch hitter that you could always depend on. He won some of those ALDS and ALCS series' for the Yankees by himself and was a major reason they reached the World Series. He was walked intentionally 7 times in World Series play, which should be a testament to how clutch and feared he was.

I'd pick him in his prime any day over Beltran and Ortiz for my postseason roster. He has dropped off the HOF ballot entirely despite having great postseason numbers and playing a premium position.

Ortiz could potentially hit 500 but has a PED cloud over him. Beltran isn't even close in my opinion. And like I said, Vlad eclipses all of them but is still talked about as a borderline candidate.

Evidence???? He showed up on the same list as arod as to having failing drug test in 2003.

?????

He batted .208 in world series play.

He was a great player, but his WS batting wasn't great.

Steve B

What I'm really trying to say is Yankees and Bernie #1. Boston unranked. Haha it kills me they're one game away.

"Cards iN 7!!!"

jmho ;-)

Man up! Show some cahones. Pick the Cards in 6.

I'm curious to see what will happen after the final out should Boston take it. Its been 95 years since the Sox clinched the title at Fenway. I know security will be up the wazoo, but I have many friends going who will be both drunk and stupid enough to rush the field.

Wow, no guesses on my three "marginal" HOFers from the earlier post.

I guess I'll have to give the answers

A = Reggie Jackson
B =Mickey Mantle
C =Willie Mays

I was surprised at their 162 game averages. I was expecting a lot higher all around than Williams, Ortiz, and Beltran. Finding them all roughly comparable was interesting.

Steve B

Sox take it tonight!!

Great opponents in St Louis... Thanks for an epic Series.

Congrats to RSN!

Great job BOSTON.
As a Cardinal fan I hate to lose it but they were simply a much, much better team.

Race well run, job well done!

Agreed. This postseason in general was insanely entertaining. I actually thought the ALCS was a better series than this one, but I'm splitting hairs. Either way, Brock is pissed, and that's all that matters right now ;)

+1

Any Series that the Cardinals lose is a great one. Lots of tears in St. Louis tonight for those Redbird fans and glee in Boston and Chicago. Now we are waiting for pitchers and catchers to report. We are ready for the next cycle of baseball. Go Cubs Go.