Yup. PSA struck a gold mine when it instituted it.

Not at all--not when you're dealing with post-war issues that are available in droves each week. I would bet the buyer sets his search parameters for 1973 football PSA 10 and doesn't bother looking at anything less--certainly not 8s.

This buyer was looking to upgrade his already #1 set on the registry with a rookie HOFer in PSA 10. He is not likely to get caught on his registry GPA so it may be a case of a guy just wanting to have the best set possible based on some quasi-objective standard known as TPG. If you hand-drew Art Shell in magic marker on an empty and untampered case showing a PSA 10 flip, it would sell.

I am not prepared to give anyone a pass on this one, and will watch this seller's auctions more carefully, along with the first buyer/shiller. Seems to me he could not have achieved that turnaround time on grading unless he paid for expedited service or paid the larger on-site grading fee at the National. Kind of risky to basically spend that for a $40 card unless you are damn confident you will get a bump, and I don't see that card as a sure 9, much less a 10. Maybe I crack it out and send it in when there's a grading special so that risk is minimal, but to rush that puppy through at the higher grading fee seems strange to me. BTW, there is no chance that grading at the National is purely blind--they often know who is submitting what and you are beyond naive if you think otherwise, so maybe that played a factor. I won't go off the deep end with accusations, but this surely isn't passing the smell test with me, particularly given the apparently uncontroverted fact that there was shilling.

[QUOTE=nolemmings;1027239]Not at all--not when you're dealing with post-war issues that are available in droves each week. I would bet the buyer sets his search parameters for 1973 football PSA 10 and doesn't bother looking at anything less--certainly not 8s.



Makes sense. I don't collect 70's or high grade cards but I guess that would make sense for a hardcore registry collector.

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

[QUOTE=vintagerookies51;1027242]It would be interesting to know how set registry people behave when they see a card in the grade they want but it is clearly overgraded, or too off center not to rate a qualifier (I have seen innumberable marginally centered PSA 8 low pop commons). I would cynically guess most would buy the card, but I really don't know.

don't you people have a life??!

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

Dude, seriously? I started reading the thread and got to that post (which I think was one of the first), saw the thing about Dateline, and figured I'd actually have fun with it.

Really, if you're THAT spun up about this, you should probably take a step back, go turn on the news, and see that there are far more important things going on in the world. Either that, or just lighten up.

Now, back to reading pages 2 through however long this thing is.

A shilled Shell
 

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Seriously, there are two distinct, shady actions going on here. The first is shilling. I believe most folks on here think it is wrong in any case, though a small number believe that it is OK, at least in some circumstances. Fine, we can agree to disagree, though most auction sites disallow this practice because it undermines their creditability.

The second is the significant bumping of a grade by PSA, which underscores the subjectivity (at best) or favoritism to certain submitters (at worst) of the whole grading business. While this may provide short term profits for the sellers, surely the more widespread and known this practice becomes, the less creditability that the graders will retain. If a TPG can bump the same card up two grades and increase it's 'value' (and I use the term lightly) that much, is it really different than a fraudelent autograph authenticator taking a forged Mantle 8x10 (that is worth no more than the cost of the photo, say $5) and authenticating it, thereby increasing it's value 500x? The problem here lies strictly with the TPG, not the folks resubmitting the cards. They are only playing the system as it is set up, much like all of us who take advantage of tax breaks that have been allowed by the gov't.

Fellas, circumstantial evidence can be "proof." And it's very powerful evidence in court. We don't require CSI-level "proof" to conclude a fraud is afoot. In addition, short of a Perry Mason-type confession on Net 54, circumstantial evidence is usually as good as you'll find in these situations.

Well, after scanning through the thread, it looks fishy to me. BUT, that's all I can really pull from it. I figure a card's grade can be different, though hopefully in the same neighborhood, any day of the week. It is after all, human beings doing the grading and we all know that we are not perfect. However, I think it's pretty obvious that there are side deals that go on all the time in many facets of work and life and I wouldn't expect card grading to be immune to this aspect.

This particular situation though just doesn't sit well with me, though that's probably mostly due to my cynical nature.

Kevin I have a question for you, have you ever consigned any items to Probstein123 or any other ebay consignment sellers?

Poof

The Bauer card listed in post 47 and Gibson card in post 52 are no longer available for sale. It reads Transaction blocked. Interesting!

+1 for BCauley (that's pretty funny)

wow
 

Folks almost universally pan Ken Goldin based on stuff that occurred over a decade ago, when he allegedly screwed others. Maybe I skipped over it, but I don't recall one person saying that they personally got taken. Not saying that the widespread disgust isn't warranted -- I share it -- but I am setting a timeline.

Then I read this thread about a current event. Amazingly (at least to me), some folks volunteer that they are OK with being the victims of fraud so long as they aren't defrauded beyond what they were willing to pay initially. Being the victim of attempted fraud is just fine because they didn't get hit this time. That has to be the craziest sh*t I've heard in a while.

If you paid $600K for a house that you could have gotten for $300K without the mysterious (and non-existent) bidder who cost you the extra cash, is that OK because $600K was your budget? If the answer is yes, then you either have more money than sense or are simply an idiot. The same is true for being shilled on a card. And, shilling hurts people other than the idiots who think its OK, because it makes the cheaters feel enabled. Then they try to do it again, which is detrimental to those of us who actually care about whether or not we've been screwed.

Not for nothing, but I'd give that Bauer a 9 all day long.....

Can someone post a link to the CU thread. I can't find it even after Google searching (however, I've never visited the CU forum before, so I don't know if I'm just in the wrong place).

It was deleted...

The link is on post #1. But it just went "poof". Must be guilty about something. Game on.

That's convenient! ;)

How often does that happen over at the CU board?

The $600/$300K house example is a good one to work with. What if the shill in that example was legitimate, does that mean your house is still worth $600K? It only retains that value if the runner up is still in the market at that price.

To the extent shilling messes up the market price of an asset, then I see a real concern engaging in an auction in that market. I would certainly be reluctant to bid in auctions where I depend on the value of an item not being the result of a potential shill. But I will gladly pay $1,000+ more than the next highest bidder on a signed T206 that I don't already own. In that case, market value is wholly irrelevant to me.

What is a "legitimate" shill? Is that like a "legal" fraud? I guess we need to define terms before we discuss further because I'm not getting it. By definition, shilling is fraud. By definition, fraud carries both civil and criminal penalties. Shilling is neither legitimate nor legal. Period.

Insofar as whether you are willing to pay $1,000 more than someone else for a given card, that's wonderful but irrelevant to the discussion. Many people are willing to do that. But what they aren't willing (or shouldn't be willing to do), at least IMO, is pay $1,000 more than a person who has no real intent to purchase the item, but who has bid it up anyway. I guess that's where we diverge.

+1

+2

+1000000

I have been wondering the same thing. I am officially calling for a one day cease-fire so all pantiesinawad thread participants can go get laid. That usually calms me down and resets my outlook immensely.:cool:

Not bad! How about:

"Sally sells shilled Shells by the seashore."

Now say that three times!:)

Difficult to prevent fraud when people don't have a problem being defrauded.

Please re-read my last post with the understanding that I meant a "legitimate" bid to be the opposite of a "shill" bid.

I think where we diverge is that so many people on here think that if we don't worry much about shilling we must like being taken advantage of, or that we like spending more money for things. These are not mutually exclusive. I hate mosquitos, but I will go outside anyway. If posting on the internet about how much you hate mosquitos makes you feel better, go right ahead. I'd prefer to enjoy the great outdoors, smacking the occasional mosquito, but not worrying about when the next one will come.

Call me an idiot all you want, but the fact of the matter is that plenty of intelligent people on here don't care much about this issue. This really seems to annoy a certain crowd on here -- but if that crowd is only seeing this in black and white, we will never truly join on this issue to discuss it. And you may never understand if there is a key to ridding the world of shilling once and for all. Might it not help your crusade to truly understand why many people don't mind being defrauded in this context?

/

Shall I Shill My Shell Today
 

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

Wow that's messed up.

If I answer this question will it be deemed that I am not enjoying the hobby?

Correct

Another problem with this shill issue "as a hidden reserve" argument is that it is cheating Ebay out of the fees paid for a legitimate reserve.

maybe

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

It seems to me that we need to distinguish between shilling where the auction house is complicit and not. As to the former, hopefully the Mastro prosecution will put the fear of God in those who would otherwise engage in the practice. [If not, and given the limited resources of law enforcement, I once suggested adoption of a hobby code of ethics to be enforced by a sort of inspector general to address shilling and other issues. This proposal was rejected as unworkable by pretty much everyone who commented. Maybe so, I don't know.]

As to shilling by a consignor or his confederates, this strikes me as more difficult to prohibit. I am inclined to agree with Peter that so long as the winning bidder pays the commission, that's the best that can be expected.

Very nice, love it !

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

CU board
 

Here is the latest at the CU board.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=864721

It will probably be removed in a few minutes.

Unfortunately, it happens way too often over there. Any thread that criticizes PSA or any of their larger submitters (4 sharp corners) seem to go "poof".

I suspect auctions have seen shenanigans since the first bushel of wheat was auctioned in the Agora.

Do they need an attorney?
There's a bully they should see.

Great stuff! Dr. Suess would be proud!

I'm revising my tongue-twister:

"Sally sells shilled sham Shells by the seashore."

Come one, come all.

Bullies need expensive cards too.

No doubt it will, but it is a bit refreshing to see that even the most ardent PSA apologists are finally seeing the light - even to the point of becoming an official member of the PSA Persona Non Grata Club - like me. I used to post over there for 8 years until I was finally banned. I think Kevin Saucier said it best, "You're nobody until you've been banned from the PSA Message Board".

Many years ago Joe Orlando made a statement on that message board that caused an uproar by stating that the PSA message board readership comprised of only 1% of the PSA collectors and whatever was posted on the board really didn't carry much weight regarding how PSA runs their business.

So the conclusion I draw from that is that it appears that alienating 1% of your customer base makes better business-sense than fixing all the problems that the remaining 99% doesn't have a clue about.

Very interesting Steve. I spoke with a guy who works for a very large car dealership out here that buys and sells used cars awhile back. The used cars they sell are very nice, in fact, they almost all look new.

I asked him why that was- he said they do buy cars that they don't put on the lot, if they don't quite meet their standards (dings, too many miles, etc.)-he said they send those cars off to be auctioned (to other used car dealers mostly, but also open to the public).

I asked him how they guarantee that they won't lose money, and he said they start the bid at what they paid for the car. I asked "what if the highest bid is only the first bid-what you paid for the car?" and he said that even if that happens on every car that they still make money off of the fees to enter the auction and the fees to bid....so even if every car only sold for what they paid for it, they still make decent money from the fees.

Back on topic (sorry)....so the CU board wipes out whole threads? Wow.:eek:

Sincerely, Clayton

My experience is the loyal PSA collector have the same types of questions as others, it's just they're not always allowed to talk about them on that board.

I've also seen collectors who assume PSA is always 100% accurate.

Not only does CU wipe out threads, they'll wipe out members for suggesting that perhaps some submitters recieve leeway or special treatment on grades.

If you even mention 4 Sharp Corners or Rick P or some others in a negative light you run the risk of being banned.

I would imagine that the CU boards are a lot like what message boards must have been like in the former Soviet Union.

--

If PSA is always 100% accurate, then there would never be a cause to resubmit for a bump - they always get it right the first time.;)

When I learn that CU deletes threads (and bans members?) for criticizing PSA, I'm glad to be a member of a board where the freedom of speech is alive and well.

There is an old customer service adage that for every person who complains there are 99 others who feel the same way but rather than complain they stop doing business. Probably applies here.

The CU message board is run by CU and naturally doesn't want any negative talk posted about their product.
No different if you went to a restaurant sat down and complained that the food sucks.
They will ask you to leave.

Naturally on a board like N54 which isn't run by PSA, SGC, Beckett, GAI etc...
You can speak your piece and get your message across.

Not to belabor the point, but I suspect that both CU, as well as most restaurants, can benefit from constructive criticism. I realize that when a business permits constructive criticism it can then become difficult to deal with outrageous allegations.

Mark I don't disagree, just stating that here on N54 the give & take can go on about a grading company, a dealer or anything related to the hobby.
Moreso then an avenue where the company that has criticisms levied against them is the sponsor of the site.

Thanks James- good to know.

That's one of the (many) great things about Net54, is that you can talk about controversial issues that are going on in the hobby. I've never once seen a thread get wiped out here.

And, your last comment had me rolling :D

Sincerely, Clayton

hi Jay!
 

Hi Jay,
Good point, my friend! I still open new wax, and I use Blowout Cards forum to trade or buy the new Red Sox cards which I'm "obsessed with,lol".
I did not read their rules, shame on me, and I listed a wax box for sale. Well, they ripped my post down in 2 seconds and I then read the rules!

To the larger picture on this thread, when I first started to use ebay, I bought something from Probstien123 and I was impressed with his business. The sheer volume was amazing to me.
Well, right after I paid for my lot, I got a very pleasant phone call from Rick, who it turns out used to live near me here in the suburbs of Boston, and he attended my shows years earlier. We had a great chat (as you know, I talk too much because I'm home 24/7!), and I will never forget how nice and polite he was to me, a buyer of a 10$ or less card! Before hanging up, he asked me what he could do to help me with my collection; whether buying it, selling it for me or selling me cards. He went out of his way to make a great impression, and his offers were sincere, serious, and this is how he gets such a following.

As to the grade jumping, I'm sure lots of people buy and re-submit.

Well, that's my 2 cents!
Have a great weekend. And Jay, I've been admiring your tremendous selection of vintage non-sport cards! You, my friend, have some amazing stuff.
Everyone have a great Sunday.
Your Friend,
Bill Hedin
Framingham, MA

Probstein
 

Probstein is not the problem. Don't bid what you can't afford to spend. How could Probstein monitor if the original consigner of his card is also bidding on the same cards with 10,000 auctions a month? As far as I know it is not a requirement for you to list all of your & your families & friends ebay user id's when consigning a card. Probstein (or any other) just needs your name, mailing address, and email address. You do not even have to have an ebay account to consign with Probstein because he is the one that has the ebay account. To me a shill bid would be if Probstein had another secret ebay account and he was shill bidding so he could get the maximum value for his auctions in order to increase his commission. It is impossible to stop the original consigner of the card or there associates from bidding on an auction on ebay that they have an interest in.

The real problem is people thinking because PSA says is a 10 that it is Gem Mint & suddenly worth 10x-100x+ the Nmt/Mt value of a card. If you place a bid in an auction then you should be willing to pay that amount. Do you also care that people subscribe to websites that send there bids in within the last few seconds of an auction?

ES

I agree, Jay.

It might be worth mentioning that I take a ton of calls and emails from our advertisers because of what gets talked about, concerning them, on this site. There have been several that will not advertise because of things that are, or have been, said. It's not that big of a deal to me. They can always respond if they wish to. I always tell them the same thing......"I don't tell members what to say or not to say and I don't protect anyone or any company."
You do need to have your full name in your post if you want to speak positively or negatively about a person or company. That goes for everyone. I will probably go back in this thread and start putting some names in posts too. If you don't like it, put your name there yourself, don't give opinions, or don't post or edit your post out. Take your pick. thanks and happy collecting!!

I've never bid more than I could afford, but if someone inflated my payment through nefarious means, why should I tolerate that?

I agree that paying high prices for PSA 10s can be foolish for a number reasons - mainly because of the subjectivity in grading and there are probably many equally as nice cards graded PSA 9 for a fraction of the price.

I have no problem with sniping. It keeps people, especially shill bidders, from running me up if they knew I was an aggressive bidder.

Please make your profile public. Thanks for posting.

So you can enjoy the hobby more?

I'm not going to argue whether or not Probstein knew his consignors were shilling their own auctions. I can't prove he did, you can't prove he didn't. Either way, ignorance is no excuse. However, here is the bottom line: NOW, HE KNOWS! He's been made aware of the fact. How he handles the situation from here will tell us everything we need to know about his character. So far, I've only heard crickets.

man please, get a life!

Hello, Kevin :rolleyes:

You forgot the rest of your name. Initials don't work. Simple rules we all have to follow.

Leon added his name earlier, but it looks like E.S went in and changed it to his initials. He also changed his name to "why does this matter". I guess he is related to "He Hate Me" and is exempt from basic board rules.

r/
Frank

I assume the last thing he will do is post his response on this Board.

he does not need to post any response on this board. Accusations were made by david james without any proof. If david james is certain that this has been going, where is the proof?? You don't accuse someone of something purely on speculation. Alot of this quite frankly sounds like sour grapes to me.....

Not suggesting that is what David is doing but sadly THAT is what goes on here all too often--lots of personal agendas get played out here to the detriment of certain people's reputations. All the while certain criminal elements in the hobby are spared.

That's what I am saying.

And I do think that ignorance is an excuse.....there is no way he could be monitoring his auctions for shilling accounts that he probably doesn't even know who it is. If I start consigning for people and I see H****6 (183) making an early bid on one my auctions, how am I supposed to know that may be one of my consignor's accounts?

But from what I hear about Rick and his reputation, I'm sure he will tell him to not shill on his consignments. Not sure what good that will do it he has other accounts.

Kevin, do you want proof? Okay, give me just a few minutes and I'll have your proof. In the meantime, go take your meds so you can fully comprehend what I'm about to lay out before you.

What he should do is refuse to take any more consignments from the shiller--why agree to profit from a known cheater?

David- you are the one that just said you had no proof! Besides, like the last post said, how in the world can this guy possibly monitor the amount of auctions he has to deal with?

here is the post