Ok, so here's a theory- Or just a crazy guess if you want to call it that.

T206s are being printed, a batch of fronts are done and backs are being printed. Polar bear on one press, Old mill on another. It gets late in the afternoon, and the guy running the Old mill press realizes he's going to run low on ink a bit before quitting time. So he asks the guy next to him who's runnning a dark blue if he'll have any extra. He will, and shortly before quitting the first guy adds that extra to his ink reservoir. Blue mixes with the black he's running, making some very dark blue backs, and transitioning to a color close to the blue but not quite, maybe just a bit darker.
The day ends, the presses are washed down removing the days ink, and the handful of sheets slips by QC if there is any because the colors are close until the last few sheets. They're cut and distributed, probably not even getting into the same carton.

-Most pressmen do their own QC in the time I was at the print shop I only did QC once. And that was on a program for an event where we had to look for perfect copies that would be presented to the dignitaries presenting papers. Try finding 50-75 flawless copies out of 5000 of anything.

Steve B

Steve,

Unless Old Mill was printed in Ohio, I don't think your theory is possible....right?

All the T 206s were printed in New York and shipped to the packing plants. Same for all the other ATC cards.

The packing plants only had equipment to produce and package various tobacco products.

Even today, very few companies produce the entire product including packaging. The only one I can think of was Ford and they don't do it anymore.

Steve B

How about this one?
 

This is a sweet caporal back in blue writing. It looks authentic and came from a large estate of similar t206 cards which all look authentic. Any ideas on where the blue back came from? Card is T206 John Hummel, Brooklyn

Here is the front.
 

What does everyone think?

Fish it appears to be a reprint that has been aged and the word "reprint" rubbed out on the reverse

thats a reprint 100%

Sorry to say that the card isn't authentic.

-Al

Hey guys, I found this after seeing the sale of the SGC 30 Ed Walsh Old Mill Blue back on Card Target. I'm just wondering if there have been any further developments. Have any other Old Mills with blue print typography shown up on the market? Have any opinions changed about this given time to think it over? As a T206 collector, I find this discussion fascinating.

Put me down as one of the minority that thinks something is fishy with that back. We have all seen tpg's slab altered cards and give them high numerical grades. Simply put, I don't trust tpg's to get it right.

Some great reading Bill.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=156986
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157764
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157671
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=157305

Thank you as always, Chris. I'll check those links out.

Blue Old Mill
 

I heard through the grapevine, that the Blue Old Mill is coming up for auction again. (It is not my card)

I thought it would be in REA's fall auction, but it's not. I'm not sure what auction house has it.

It will be interesting to see what it sells for again.

Tony

It's coming up in a HA auction

What did it sell for last time? As I recall, it was less than a lot of folks predicted.

jesus shi*....just when i was focusing on a drum.

i gotta be honest here and say that the borders on this card alone give me the impression that its a reprint.

like....when you look at it doesn't it just wreak of the standard cobb repint border or what have you? not trying to call it out since its slabbed but like....really?

it takes a serious nut sack for them to lay out a new 1 of 1 back.....if its NOT real.....right? to me that is your WHOLE reputation on a single card/grade.

my whole argument rests on this one sentance: how many t206's look like that from 10 feet away? im going with the answer of "only reprints".

yes. i have in fact held this card in my hand. it looks ok up front in my hand but go* da** in every image scan of this card ot just does not fit in with any other scan image i have seen.

toss in a montage of cards and i guarentee it stands out on boarder......alone. did anyone measure the inside boarders on the card and make sure the square black frame line measures proper to another portrait card? if so then you should be able to compare the overall edge to a proper card and see if this one is lager or smaller....right?

kevin

Eek gads...here we go again?!

I agree with with Kevin...every time I look at it...I think reprint (based on the front). I wonder how many slabbed t206's I've seen...20K? How many of these look like reprints...maybe 5 (of the major grading company slabs...though I don't really recall any others)? Oh and it happens to have a never-seen-before back...seems legit.

I don't like the 4 perfectly rounded corners...all look exactly the same...
whats the chance of that in a 100 year old WORN card?

maybe that is why this card sold for less than expected...some people thinks its fake...

I said it before, this card has the same design and back color as the known Old Mill reprints. If that is merely a coincidence 100 years after the fact, then that's some coincidence.

I don't like the look of the corners either.
I also wonder why someone who just bought such a celebrity card is willing to part with it so quickly.

And there is the obvious question: If these cards were produced in sheets of 36 cards (or more, but let's not start that debate here), where are the other cards from this Blue Old Mill sheet? Doesn't it seem like some more should have survived? We have found more than 2 dozen Brown Lenox, and I believe 12 to 14 Brown Old Mills. Why haven't any other Blues turned up?

If this seller really believes that this card is authentic, perhaps he could submit it for re-grading. If a TPG took another look and still thought it to be authentic that might ease some of our doubts about the card.

professionally aged
 

I think there are some real "professional aging experts" out there and they seem to be getting more numerous....

Here is the card side by side with a reprint that I posted earlier in the thread:


http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...lueOldMill.jpg http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m...s/oldMill2.jpg

packs
 

Great Eye!

also, the blue back card seems to be missing the Dimples of Half Tones...it seems to have more of a solid ink color without the appearance of Stippling...

no print dots=not real

I don't know if it's real or not. I just think it too much a coincidence that the newly discovered color would be a previously used design for reprints. A lot of knowledgable collectors believe it to be authentic.

main difference
 

in all the OLD MILLS I have seen/own, the two horizontal lines on the back are SHADED IN.....

the blue back seems to have those two horizontal lines with no shading

check yours at home!

I have a question that may have already been asked, but I'm too lazy to scroll through 19 pages looking for my answer.

Is there any way the card could be a legit T206 that somebody bleached the back and reprinted the back as a blue Old Mill?

I know that TPA's have been fooled before by re-backed T206 cards, though it rarely happens. My personal theory on the card is that it is an authentic T206 that could have potentially been re-backed (unless it is truly authentic). It would help it to pass the smell test and if done well enough, may fool a TPA.

Neither of mine are shaded.

And none of the backs are printed in halftone.

Any narrow area like the horizontal lines is prone to filling if the plate is too dry.

Steve B

Let me revisit a question asked by one of you guys last August. Where are the rest of the cards from the sheet? Nothing has surfaced in the past 12+ months?

This is certainly one of the few times when adding to the population would increase the value. As a collector of very scarce cards I understand the "too rare" syndrome all too well. I lean towards this being a legit variety of Old Mill but am still not 100%. I am sort of partially over the fence but not all of the way there :).

Buried in one of the blue OM threads is a scan of my OM Walsh. I believe it is the brother of the blue one (no matter how hard I squint, I can't make the back turn blue, though :) ). Below are side by side scans of my card and the blue one.

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...king_walsh.jpg

There are a number of print anomalies that are identical on both cards -- a weak black border on both the right and left hand side, a red blob on the I in Chicago, and another very small red blob near his hairline above his left eye. In the image below I've circled these areas.

http://photos.imageevent.com/ltsgall...lsh_marked.jpg

I believe that these similarities are reasonably strong evidence that these 2 cards were produced by the same printing plates (note that there are some other anomalies that are not shared by the 2 cards namely the small dark splotch above his collar in my card and the small red spot on the second c in Chicago on the blue back).

Is it possible that the card could have been exposed to some chemical causing the bleached look and making the ink turn on the back?

Good information Scott!

Thanks for posting this,


Jantz

Wider and whiter
 

Yes, but all 4 borders are wider on the OM. If it is authentic, doesn't that mean it was probably hand cut from a sheet? Otherwise, how does one explain the obviously oversize white borders?

Also, the borders are much whiter on the OM. Maybe something bleached the the card (intentionally or not) and it also turned the ink blue.

Oh, if only this card were in a PSA holder, what fun there would be.

huh? inside joke?

Most likely he is referring to SGC getting a pass on Net54baseball and PSA not getting passes (on issues such as this). This board, to me, is always a little unfair to PSA. They deserve some of the criticisms, no doubt, but they seem to get blown out of proportion. Whereas SGC does not get taken to task the same way. Hope that helps explain it.

perfectly....and from the Board Owner...well said sir...
you are very fair and even tempered it seems

PSA would have never slabbed it. That much I CAN tell you. It has been an epic battle to cross my Nodgrass.

There is no way they are going to slab that as a "Blue back" on the label\

Kevin

There's a lot of size differences with most old cards. So having wider borders isn't odd.

The lightness could be lightness or the scanner, no way to tell without having a couple cards in hand. The T206s I have aren't consistently white or off-white.

I suppose it could have been changed by some chemical. Most black inks of the era are carbon -Either carbon black or lampblack- in a hardener like shellac or linseed oil (yeah, plus a bunch of other stuff that the companies kept as trade secrets) Carbon pigments don't change color all that readily.

Steve B

Found this while looking for info about inks. From 1904, includes pretty much everything you never wanted to know about various inks and how they are/were made.

http://www.archive.org/stream/inksth...crich_djvu.txt

Not in the best format for reading, but interesting anyway.

Some of what I've found makes me wonder if some of the darker black OM backs are actually blue, which can be made nearly black. And one of the common dark blues can be lightened.

But the same argument that goes against the blue OM works there as well, if the ink of the darker ones is really a blue-black, we should see a lot more blue ones. Just as we should eventually find a few more blue ones if it's an actual error in the color used.


As a funny technical note, the computer monitor I have is a flat panel one. I nearly bought an OM on Ebay because it looked BLUE! Then I sat up to type and as the angle I viewed it at changed it got darker, until it was black. Now I make sure I'm viewing at a good angle when I'm looking at cards.......

Steve B

hi,

who is the current owner of the card? does anyone know this?

kevin

Thank you Leon!

SGC doesn't get taken to task like PSA does because SGC doesn't make nearly as many questionable moves as PSA does.

SGC is my grader of choice both personally and professionally. I know most of the folks at the company and trust them very much. All of that said, I was just calling it like I see it...just one

opinion.

I should add that I have used BVG on quite a few occasions, for various reasons. I think all 3 of the top companies do a good job.

Kevin- How can you be this sure? I would not want to bet big bucks on it....

Pete- I feel you, but what about resale value? PSA blows SGC out of the water, not even close, especially T206s... When are SGC advocates going to admit this? Even if you are simply a collector, sooner or later you are going to have to realize a price when you sell. Does this not matter?

Kevin...I agree in the past many of PSA's hammer prices were higher...due to PSA's...in my opinion...testosterone laden registry. If these "collectors" chose to pay inflated prices for cards with inflated grades...just to improve their position on a registry fabricated by a corrupt company...this is just plain stupid behavior...in my opinion.

My opinion on resale value is so many collectors have so much $ into PSA cards. That no one stops buying there junk because it would highly devalue there own PSA graded cards if they did.

I understand everyone makes mistakes. SGC just seems to make by far the least of the big 3 and hopefully someday resale prices will reflect that.

I kind of agree with Ben...it's like what is being said over with the Mastro debacle...once a card sells for a certain amount...despite the fact it may have been shilled...or phantom bid up to that amount...when future sales occur of a similar card...I think those who have previously purchased the card are bidding it up to justify what they paid...it's kind of a large...firm BUBBLE!!!!!

wow.....just when you think you heard it all....

they have very firmly stated that they do not recognize anything that is not in the standard catalouge. period. this is not in there. you can simply call, ask that exact question and they will give you that exact answer. i would bet any amount that you chose to bet.

even cards that are in there, its a big battle to get them recognized.

kevin

if a great majority of people buy at a given price, it sets a new precedence for the item. some may think the item is over priced. others may recognize that there is equal supply and demand at the new given, higher price.

kevin

that is just the most ridiculous thing i have heard in a while. you did not think about that before you typed it.

kevin

Yes I did, it is actually a very common opinion among collectors. Even ones that deal mainly in graded cards.

Please tell my why you think they sell for more, I am very interested in your opinion.

I think that your explanation of a person believes they need to keep spending their money on something they don't believe in, then in fact DOES do just that after their revelation, to maintain the value of their cards or even believes that themselves have a big impact on that is utterly ridiculous.

Based purely on number of collectors, I might assume that there is at least one person out there that believes that. To think that there are large number of them is even more ridiculous.

If many people believe that, its not ridiculous. Its sad. It speaks to how common sense has been totally flushed out in this country.

My opinion about why they sell for more is totally irrelavant to that.

Kevin

Quality items sell and always will sell for quality prices no matter what holder they are in PSA or SGC.

Now your avg. soft graded run of the mill cards may in fact sell for a bit more in PSA due to the much more active registry base but that's about the sum of it for me.

Nobody is leaving serious money on the table by using one or the other IMO, choose who you would like to use for grading and go for it.

If shill bidding is as rampant at auction houses (or eBay) as some have said in various threads on this board and if those auction houses mostly submit cards to PSA (or people who submit large quantities of cards to PSA) get higher grades for cards than most other people would get, as has also been stated in various threads on this board then shouldn't it follow that PSA cards attain higher prices at auction than SGC graded cards?

David

Some people like living in denial...I mean:

-overinflated grades
-preferential grading
-shill bidding
-phantom bidding
-psa registry

Sure you can say all u want that as long as people are willing to pay whatever price...these ridiculous prices are warranted...and that the shill bidding really doesn't matter because if I was willing to pay 1K...who cares if a card was shill bid up to 950...even though it may only be worth $500.

All of these deceptive practices that overinflate card grades...that overinflate sales prices...cannot and will not proceed forever.

There are a lot of wealthy "collectors" out there who are fueling this situation...and this is not likely to change anytime soon...BUT...it has been shown that when 2 people want a card...prices can go crazy...and as soon as 1 of those buyers obtains the card...the next sales prices tends to be a bit lower.

If PSA goes down...or is forced to admit that they have in fact participated in preferential grading...in overinflating grades...when other major auction houses ARE implicated in deceptive practices and are taken to task...the shit will hit the fan and will have an impact on the hobby!

I apogize for the derailure of this thread!

TO get back on track...I have always been suspicious of this card...and would never pay big bucks for it...for there to be only 1 example of any T206...let alone a back variation is highly...highly unlikely!

The rarest of t206 backs...the brown om's/lenox, bl 460's...have dozens of examples...some of which were scraps. If dozens of scraps survive...how is there 1 smurf backed om?

I agree 100% Pete,

To me, at almost feels like the 2007-early 2008 run up to the financial collapse. I've seen numerous threads about the ridiculous prices being paid for certain cards (T206 backs for example). While there are obviously many collectors who have the disposable income to spend the $$, at what point do they look at the landscape and start feeling that the whole system is dirty? At that point, folks may decide that it's time to start selling before the floor drops out. If people decide that TPG services aren't a guarantee of anything, you may see the supply/demand ratio flip and prices start to drop.

I saw it firsthand when lenders were giving out ARMs and interest only mortgages for $400k+ to families that we making about $45k/per year. These companies would then bundle the mortgages up, securitize them and sell them off as CMOs, credit default swaps, etc... All it really took to pull the card house down was a few people saying "wait a minute, this doesn't make sense, what's backing up these investments?". The moment that there wasn't complete believe in the system, everything fell apart.

who ever bought it for 14k from heritage auction has it for sale for 30k there. i wonder if they ever got the card in their hand?

did anyone on the board buy it?

kevin

I can't talk about it just yet.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...ky-Gervais.gif

Initiatives?

you can eat a dick too.

kevin quinn

Thank you Kevin what a wonderful suggestion for Chris and others for this Holiday season. Good call a wonderful pudding can make all the difference at ones Holiday table.

http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn...X_v1-w2000.jpg

Between your wonderful culinary suggestions and your secret initiatives I’m beginning to wonder is there anything Kevin can’t do. :)

it wasn't festive enough for you on this jewish holiday?

ok. here is one with a bow on it for you. just for you wonka.

kevin quinn

Oh it wasn’t a Holiday recommendation for food it was a homoerotic attempt at simple fellatio humor. I didn’t follow it I’m sorry. I also didn’t expect you to work blue so quickly. However it is sort of understandable I’m sure you’ll agree. You see I’m just a simple collector and not as astute as you with top secret incentives.

Also I’m not Jewish but if I was I would hope that’s an all-beef Kosher dog above…

I didn't get a bow :(

You’ll have to forgive Kevin Chris he’s got a lot of top secret heavy stuff on his mind. I’m sure it was a simple oversight on his part not offer you a bow with his “Dick” I wouldn’t take it personally.

I wouldn't take it at all.

Sean don’t be so quick to say that about Kevin’s offer sometimes it’s the “littlest” gifts that mean the most.

lol

well. i have seen your picture. i figured you would love it with or without the bow. sorry about that. next time i will make sure it looks extra tastey for you.

kevin

LOL, you guys are too funny :D

Chris: I think you have a fan!