Phil
SGC next day special, it's on their home page this month.
http://www.sgccard.com/
Thought you might be interested.

Because SGC requires cards of a certain value to be sent by registered mail, and I had other cards in the order. Good enough for ya? I registered my complaint to the seller one week from receiving the cards, is that unfair?
And yes I do believe your tone and words to be inquisitorial, and I suspect others here do as well.

How do you detect tone from a post made up of words?

I've got no dog in this entertaining fight and have no opinion on who's right or who's wrong, but I've always interpreted that SGC requires cards of a certain value to be returned to the owner by registered mail. It's my understanding that the submitter can send them to SGC any way that he or she wants. (And this isn't to suggest Todd mailed them to SGC in a right or wrong way.)

Then basically you are saying that SGC is the premiere grader and all other graders are second tier. I have several examples personally of SGC mistakes that they have made. Would you like me to share them with you?

D Bergin-At worst Scott and Leon are out $1000 and have the card. That is the worst case.

Normal transaction: They pay the consignor $1000, the get paid $1125 by the buyer, and the buyer gets the card. Net $125.

Worst Case (Pay consignor, card returned, and cannot recover money from consignor): They have paid consignor $1000, they get paid $1125 by the buyer, the return $1125 to buyer, they have the card. Net-they are out $1000 and have the card.

The worst case is a low probability situation since, even if the consignor was paid, the auction house can request the money back from a consignor if the lot proves to have a problem. In Todd's case he found the problem quickly and this would have not been an issue.
Regardless, I would expect this from a responsible seller or auction house. If I thought I would be treated otherwise I would not deal with that entity.

Then I guess you aren't bidding on ANY of the auction houses cards (REA, Memory Lane, Mile High, etc), because EVERY SINGLE auction house has a clause relating to resubmitting already graded cards.

I found something and have posted something that I think everyone needs a refresher course on. I got this from my REA catalog from last year. I am sure everyone is in agreement that Rob Lifson is one of the "good guys" in the collecting world, and I have not heard anyone say one negative word about him on the Net 54 board. That being said, please read article #17 on the below section from his auction book. This is the way that EVERY single auction handles graded cards.....

http://img2.sellersourcebook.com/use...1298243873.jpg

Ahhh, great point and one that I overlooked. And I had been reading those threads- just hadn't thought of them when I posted.

I also agree with what you say- if it's still in the holder-refund. If not,....then don't (but at least try to work it out so everyone involved is satisfied * had to add that ;)).

Sincerely, Clayton

Seems like the OP has a history of backing out of eBay deals...

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?Use...ed+by&ref=home

Edited to add 3 things:
1. I have been an eBay member for 8-1/2 years and have never had a negative (over 2600+ feedback).
2. I have never backed out of an eBay deal and I have bought thousands of items.
3. It makes me wonder how many other deals the OP has backed out of and we'll never know because sellers can no longer leave negative feedback.

David, How many times have you left a negative feedback?

One of the big problems with the old Ebay system was that people were afraid to leave negatives for for fear of retaliation, so if you never left any there is a good chance that you never received one.

I have had 2 negatives on ebay that were retalitory from sellers that I had to drop negatives too and were shortly there after gone from ebay (this can no longer happen on ebay).

I would guess that in all your transactions they were all not positive.

If you reread Todd's original post, you will see that a very big issue is the serious lack of communication from Carter, which to me is grounds alone for a negative. The rest of this thread has just blown into this big Monster that doesn't have much to do with the fact the Carter deserves a negative for his communication skills.

I have brought up a similar type of issue with the same results. THe thread just evolves into a thread that has nothing to do with the original posts.

Bottom line to me is if Carter responds there is a very good chance we have no problem and no thread.

Huh? What does the number of negs I've left have to do with anything? You're trying to spin the situation. I'm simply pointing out that 2 of his 3 negs are for backing out of eBay deals which shows a history that is important in this matter.

But, since you asked, I have left 16 negs and 2 neutrals in my eBay history and the majority of those were in the old feedback days when the seller could leave a negative. See for yourself:

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?Use...ft+by&ref=home

Any more ridiculous questions about my feedback, or do you want to try to spin this another way now?

Please let me voice an opinion on this matter. I have purchased several cards from paul@ carterscards without a single issue. Let's face it, if you are buying a vintage gai card, you know what you are getting in to. Maybe you are lucky, maybe not. You will normally pay a fraction of the price compared to psa or sgc graded. That's the good thing. This hobby is not that simple as to think you can buy gai graded cards for $1k and then cross them to a psa or sgc grade and then get $3k for it. If he did not respond to your emails, i can understand the frustration there. Having said that, i have had very good luck with gai graded vintage cards as being the real deal. Hard to believe, but when gai first came out, their prices were bringing more than psa.

Two grading services disagree and its the sellers fault. I agree its tied 1-1. If the card has been altered since the purchase why should the seller take it back, that would be terrible for him or her.

Strange Question to bring up
 

Todd:

If this card had been graded by SGC with the same number grade as GAI, what is the worth of this card?

Rich

It seems like this post has "jumped the shark" a bit. I doubt Todd is going to be convinced to see things any other way, nor are those that seem to be disagreeing with him. At least it was interesting at the outset, now it seems to just be getting nasty.
-Rhett

David did you read the negs, one appears legit no pay, one looks like a misunderstand that got paid and the third is from a unregistered seller that Todd has canceled checks for.

Talk about spinning situations, heck you guys even got B& L involved and the only thing they have in common with this thread is that they sell graded cards.

As for why I asked the question to you it is exampled in the response. I am glad to hear that you have left negs, many did not for fear of retaliation.

It amazes me how questions asked such as my response, can be taken as attacks. Do what you must and think what you must, that's everyone's right.

Lee

I agree with Rhett.

David, I see you remain on a witchhunt. Believe me, this bull@#$% reflects much worse on you than it does on me. Ask anyone on this board--anyone, if they have had ever had anything other than a good transaction with me. I've partnered with many here on auction lots, even with thousands on the table, without anything but good results and smooth communications. How many here have dealt with you?

Yes, six years ago a so-called buddy wanted me to bid on 1971 Mattel football set for his kid, and then "changed his mind". Not seller's problem, but when I contacted her some days later (I had bid before I left town and won while gone) she read me the riot act before I could even explain and said she would neg me. At that point, I did indeed tell her to kiss my ass and fire away. I did not respond to her neg because I did in fact refuse to pay, although I have no idea where her story came from.

Other than that, I have backed out of zero deals--ZERO.

This @#$% has gone on long enough with some of you turds. I've been dealing with friends and others on this board long before you ever thought of coming over here, and will continue to do so long after you're gone. I don't need to nor will I explain my mailing practices, my professional life or anything else beyond what I have already. You don't like it then you too can kiss my ass.

Rich, I do not know what an SGC Stengel would go for in that or any other grade, other than to know what I might pay for it. I've had problems logging into VCP for a few months (no complaints Bobby, just haven't spent the time trying to get a new temp password). Maybe someone else can pull that info for you. I know my bid was just under $1500, and I won it for far less.

My god, please someone end this thread. Todd, the bottom line is you bought a gai card without any money back guarantee. All other crap expressed in this thread is irrelevant.

I can't imagine an sgc graded card bringing more than 1500-2000, psa different story.

BBSD,

Reading comprehension may nor be your strong suit. The card has NOT been altered since the purchase. It is exactly the same.

jim- i think bbsd meant if it had been cracked out, altered, and then sent to sgc

The way ebay/Paypal is currently structured, every purchase has a money back guarantee. It doesn't matter what the seller said. That's the way ebay is.

I know what he meant. But from his comment, it's clear he either didn't read, or didn't understand this thread. The card is still in the original holder, and it says so in the thread.

Then why in the hell doesn't paypal intervene and resolve the situation?

They will. Once Todd has opened a case (I believe he has.) They will contact the seller and wait for his response. Then, regardless of what the seller thinks, they will tell Todd to return the card, with signature proof, and, when it's done. They will take the money from his account and credit Todd.

But Todd knows all that. He's a relatively intelligent guy. He started this thread to warn others of a seller with poor communication skills. Unfortunately, it has morphed into much more.

I hereby post an open offer to buy all GAI pre-war graded cards of HOF players at VCP (VCP for GAI graded cards only, that is). I'll be cracking the cases and submitting the cards to SGC. Any cards that grade lower than the original GAI rating, I'll be returning to you for a full refund. I assume that you stand behind the GAI grades that are labelled on the slabs, and that you have closely inspected the cards through the plastic and are in agreement with GAI concerning their grades, and you are, therefore, not misrepresenting the cards in any way. If the cards come back from SGC lower by 2 grades or more or turn out to be trimmed, etc, I expect you to also cover all of my shipping charges, grading fees, etc.

Sounds like a foolproof plan, doesn't it --- you (the Sellers) take all the risk, and I (the Buyer) reap all the reward from the cards that successfully cross over. Your refund guarantee is my insurance policy.

Any takers?

well said chris

Turds? Kiss your ass? Witch hunt? Wow! Yes, it is a witch hunt - a witch hunt you started to smear a reputable eBay seller. Todd, at this point it is GAI's word against SGC's. The burden of proof is on you. Prove to me and the rest of us "turds" that the card is trimmed. If you can prove it, I'll admit I was wrong. If you can't prove it, you need to shut the hell up and quit whining.

I also don't believe todd started this thread to warn other potential buyers. No offense, but i think it was to vent and it was out of anger that the card came back trimmed.

Chris, you hit the nail right on the head!! Ebay has a list of preapproved authenticators, but apparently they will contradict themselves and the 3rd party graders don't mean squat. This whole thing reeks with the problems that Ebay/TPGs fester.....

One question i have. If all this is true to protect the buyer about money back guarantees, then why in the hell is the market as crappy as it is on gai graded cards??? why not pay more money for them? what do you have to lose?

Well put, David!

And now thanks to Todd, the seller will be stuck with a card that has been publicly branded as trimmed, which may or may not be true. So let's see what's been covered in this thread. Carters knowingly sells altered, yet professionally graded cards.. Carters shills up his bidders.. Carters doesn't communicate at all.. None of which seems to be the case, with the exception of maybe the communication thing. Am I forgetting anything? All because Todd knowingly took a risk on an item that clearly stated no refunds, and it didn't work out the way he'd hoped so he's throwing a hissy fit about it.

Also, most people apparently haven't had any issues with the seller's communication up until you.. I'd honestly love to see the original email you sent the seller that warranted him to ignore you.

Exactly. If we all took Todd's approach to this whole GAI mess, we could all get rich, by just forcing a return whenever things don't work out in the cross-over.

VB you a class act, go pick a fight with somebody who cares.

What's your basis for saying that he is not shilling, in light of the statistics posted regarding another ID with well over 100 bids 97 percent of which were with the seller? EDIT TO CUT AND PASTE FROM POST 4:
Bidder Information
Bidder: s***n( 6 )
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1914 T222 Fatima GROVER ALEXANDER Graded PSA 5 EX
Bids on this item: 2
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 131
Items bid on: 92
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 97%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I have to remind myself to stop commenting on this board before I piss too many people off...It honestly isn't my intention, it just comes out that way....I won't be offering any apologies though.

Well??? I'm still waiting. You said you could prove it was trimmed, so do so.

Post #56 you said, "And vintagetoppsguy, your comment that I cannot "prove" that it was trimmed because two TPGs have differing opinions is simply incorrect."

So prove it big mouth. We're waiting.

I don't have any basis for saying that he's not shilling, but there isn't really a valid basis for saying that his either.

That buyer is still relatively new, let's give him a little more time before jumping to that conclusion. And aside from an SGC graded Cobb, the buyer seems to be targeting high grade PSA stuff. There was clearly ZERO shilling on Todd's auction. Also, if I remember correctly, Todd had a 81% bid history with this seller. Is he also helping this guy shill?

Anyways, I'm getting out of this thread for now, before I piss too many more people off.

Yeah it could be a coincidence that out of 132 bids 97 percent are with the same seller. Or loyalty, a fine quality. EDIT TO ADD I see he also bought a shiny Joe Jackson bat card from the seller. Clearly a buyer of diverse tastes. Bought some midgrade stuff too. In my opinion, it's beyond even a reasonable doubt, but whatever, I've been wrong before.

peter you can't prove to us he shill bids unless you have photo proof of the seller sitting at his laptop with the shill bidder's account on his desktop...just like todd can't prove the card is trimmed unless he was there to witness it. we will take nothing less :rolleyes:

I wont speak for Jim in this case as he has made a valid point about your dyslexia.;)



Seems that most of the people that are negative towards todd about this thing are "newbies" here. Why?? He bought a card and submitted it for re-slabbing only to find out the card may/is altered. Card is still in the GAI slab and a full refund is warranted. I would do the same. I don't have anything good to say about Carters due to some past issues also but who cares about that really. Sounds like they are to busy STEALING from you idiots that support this type of destructive behavior that destroy this great hobby.


Todd I wish you the best and hope all this works out for you.

No circumstantial evidence in your court, eh? :D

Just something to chew on here gentlemen that are siding with a.........whats the word I am looking for...........

Feel free to help me with the word I am looking for guys:confused:


http://www.recordpub.com/news/article/4067361

Noone said anything about this, so I will post it AGAIN. Please read article #17. Robert Edwards Auctions, one of the best in the business!! I am sorry, but someone has to draw the line somewhere.....

http://img2.sellersourcebook.com/use...1298243873.jpg

i am surprised todd was still engaging and it took him this long blow up. with all the inane chatter, lol arguments and focus on the stupidest detail i would've flipped out a long time ago. someone trying to compare the situation to a $120 topps banks card that went from a psa 7 to an sgc80. i'm sure if sgc said it was recolored you would've been totally fine like "psa...lol, seller still a good dude i'll rack it up as a learning experience"....now multiply that 10x.

todd knew what he was getting with gai, he was willing to go from a gai 7.5 to a sgc80, that didn't happen. you expect a "professional" TPG with mike baker to at least know a clean card from altered, that's not asking too much. todd knows his M, if i have a question about this issue todd would be one of 2-3 i would come to (rhett is another). he suspected card was trimmed when he got it. instead of confronting the seller right away (like i would) he did the fair thing and sent it off to sgc on his own dime to confirm his suspicion. it's so lol how people are nitpicking at the shipping method he used etc...like really? you can't be serious right????

then to gang up and attack his character, from a bunch of names i've never heard of with less than 100 posts and no history on the board at all...like WOW~! the seller is the one not answering emails, the seller is probably shill-bidding, the seller is not standing behind product, and todd's character is being questioned? Quoting a great American..."YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!"

not breaking paragraph to show how tilting reading this thread is (edit: eh broke up into paragraphs as there's enough people who can't read properly as is...). in the end it won't matter as todd will get his money back and seller can send card to psa and it'll come back an 8 and everyone will be happy.

I don't think anybody asked to prove shilling (unless I missed that part). It looks suspicious, but people can draw their own conclusions. The OP stated that he can prove the card is trimmed. I've simply asked him to do so. He can either prove it and shut up all of us "turds" or he popped off his big mouth. Which is it? Either way, I am done with this thread. He either proves it and I make one final post (my apology to him) or he doesn't prove it and shows himself a liar - for the second time.

Kevin get's my point, hey pup mind your own business. Get a life loser.:rolleyes:

David N. -

A user with 6 feedback bids 127 times on this seller's cards and 4 times with other sellers in a 30-day period.

The only one who should apologize is the seller.


Bill

Edited to add: vintagetoppsguy is also David

Level the playing field.
 

What if Ebay/Paypal changed their policy to allow buyers, of TPG cards, only 3 returns/refunds in a 12 month period. Just as a football coach needs to save
time-outs and referee play call challenges. A buyer then would have to ask himself should I really return this item? Or for that matter should I even buy it.

I also think bid retractions could be limited.

Just my 2 cents.

It is my business when you come on here and start messing with people that have been here probably longer than your IQ is high. Bet you had to look up what dyslexia meant didn't you:D:D:D:D:D:D

WOW!

This thread has really moved along... for those that don't want to read the whole thing this is a very general summary:

Higher grade GAI Card that is mislabeled is purchased by someone that is not happy that SGC has deemed the card is trimmed. Buyer would like a refund (over $1K) for the ebay purchase. The seller clearly indicated NO RETURNS ACCEPTED in the ebay item description. Buyer also indicated the following:

"not really looking for sympathy here and may not get any--just wanted to vent. Also thought you'd like to know a little about this seller if you were thinking of bidding on his auctions."

Opinions/observations that have been made:

- Some people say that the seller should refund the $$$.

- Others say the item description was clear and it was a TPG card that is encapsulated.

- Some posters have made claims that the seller shill bids and to a degree have substantiated the claim. I don't know what that has to do with the topic of a return but this was an evolutionary part of this topic.

- People have indicated that if the card would have crossed over to SGC at a higher grade the buyer would have been estatic and probably not have thought to send the seller more money because the card was valued more than the actual purchase price because of a higher grade.

- Some have said since the buyer was told the card is trimmed by a different TPG the seller wants out of the deal absed on a different opinion from another TPG. In this case some people believe that you just roll the dice when you buy a card encapsulated by a TPG. TPGs provide "their" subjective opinion about a card and if 4 different TPGs look at the card you could get 4 completely different opinions.

- People obviously have their opinions and there are many differing views on the topic. The discussion is getting a little heated - If it continues this thread is on its way to becoming ' "a train wreck of a thread". Something we haven't had to deal with for a while...

At least it hasn't turned into a total battle royale...

I think you Newbies that chime in on this stuff and seem to be so righteous need to realize that there are well respected members of this community that you attack and tell to shut up. The respect we have is all well earned over timed. You can continue to attack us but the people that have have been around this hobby long know our reputation and you need to start earning yours.

I know all the Newbies are not this way but there seems to be way too many in the last few years. And you wonder why people wonder and specular where all the old posters have went.

There is a great group of people in this collecting committee that I call friends and many of us are just amazed by the arrogance of some of the Newbies.

This a great hobby and proud to call many of it's participants friends.

Lee

please read link as it seems to have some interesting info in it. BBSD, just incase, I want to extend you the offer so you don's feel left out here. PM me your # and I will have my 5 yr old call you and read you the article. BTW what does the "SD' stand for? Since we know your initials are BB whats the SD? I have a BIG guess but it would be way to funny to post and I might get reprimanded for it.

"Anyways, I'm getting out of this thread for now, before I piss too many more people off."

Too late.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, shouldn't GAI be the one who pays for the card (if it's trimmed) and not the seller? I thought that's how it works.

Since the GAI in question has been disolved they no longer have the responsibility.:(

Do they no longer exist?

Not as GAI. They have changed a few times but if I am not mistaken about now Mike Baker is "Global authority" Might want to do a quick google search. Lots of controversy on that one. Not to say all his stuff is bad. Just some

Good post Lee.

carters cards 2006
 

Trying to understand, the seller bought a collection of cards, this one was a GAI holder and you broke it out and sent to SGC, and it came back trimmed. If this was the case, how can you fault the seller of the card- afterall he bought this card as a 7.5 correct in good faith, then sold it in good faith. I believe there is no case ?,.

Honestly, what does B & L, REA, Legendary, Heritage or ANY other auction company have to do with THIS discussion? Those are privately owned companies that put together their OWN auction. They accept or reject items for THEIR OWN AUCTION and they also put forth a set of rules that BOTH buyers AND sellers have to abide by.

Plain and simple, if any of those companies DO NOT LIKE an item, they DO NOT HAVE TO accept it for THEIR auction. The SAME goes for a buyer OR a seller that doesn't like the rules those companies have in place. If they don't like the rules, they don't have to submit items for acceptance or they don't have to bid in the auction.

On the other hand, eBay (including PayPal) is a large, publicly owned company that only HOSTS auctions. For the most part, they do not have a say in WHAT is put up for auction by individual sellers. Also, since they are only the host and say they keep out of the actual selling of items, they have rules for how they will handle disagreements between buyers and sellers.

One of those RULES is that if a buyer has a problem with an item they bought or a seller, they can bring that problem to eBay's (or PayPal's) attention and eBay (PayPal) will make a judgement on THAT particular problem.

What this all means is that it doesn't make a difference if a seller states one time, ten times or a thousand times that there wil be NO REFUNDS. If eBay (PayPal) decides there WILL be a refund given, then there WILL be a refund given (if the buyer follows the rules eBay/PayPal say they have to follow).

As a seller on eBay, I don't like a lot of things they do, however one thing I have to remember is what eBay says, goes. If I don't like it, tough cookies.

A few years ago, I listed a vintage watch for auction and used a certain term, "tank" to describe it. Two days later, eBay removed my listing. The reason? The term I used to describe the watch (tank) was copyrighted by another watch company and only watches made by THAT company could be described with that term.

Once I found out what the problem was, I relisted the watch WITHOUT that term and eBay let my auction go through to completion.

In the last month, I have sold four dinner plates and a piece of pottery (in two seperate auctions and amongst numerous auctions). When the buyer received the dinner plates she said one of them was broken in transit. What did I do? I apologized for the problem (even though I had doubts it was true because I wrapped each plate in bubble wrap, put plenty of newspaper around all of the plates and then put them in an oversized box) and then divided the final selling price by four and refunded her that 1/4th. The result? No further complaints and NO negative Feed back.

As for the piece of pottery, it sold for 20 times more than I paid for it. I was thrilled and was already thinking how that would cover a month and half of my minimum credit card payment. Then, after the buyer received the piece of pottery, they E mailed me and told me there was a hairline crack in the piece that I didn't describe and they wanted to send it back for a refund.

They said they understood why I hadn't listed the crack as a defect in my auction (the crack was visable from inside the piece of pottery and could not be felt on the outside. They also said they could tell the crack was old because of the browning of the area where it was located). But that didn't matter because they didn't want a damaged piece of pottery in their collection.

What did I do? I had them send the piece back to me and once I had it in hand, I refunded ALL of their money. I did NOT like doing that BUT they have not complained and they have NOT left me negative Feed Back.

Moral of the story? The seller of THIS card might not like the fact they are going to have to refund the money to the buyer (especially if they ARE shilling their other auctions and actually sold this card to a person other than theirselves). They might not like the fact that the buyer sent the card to another grading company for evaluation BUT refunding the money is the right thing to do AND if they had done this in the beginning, they wouldn't be getting all of this bad press now.

David

My only beef with Carterscards2006 is they block Canadian bidders. I hate sellers that do that!:mad:

Mr. Towle,

I disagree.

If the buyer bought the card as a GAI 7.5, sent it off and it came back an SGC 60 (or PSA 6 or whatever) then I would say tough nookums (as I do about the Banks card above).

However, if the card went out as a GAI 7.5 and came back as an SGC "A" because of trimming then I think there is a huge problem.

To me, there shouldn't be much difference between one grade (a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to a 6). Differences like that can be chalked up to experience and expertise of the grader, how many cards they have graded that day, etc, etc, etc. However, the difference between a card being graded a 7.5 (based on it being a complete card) and it being graded an "A" (because it has been trimmed) is two entirely different things.

If you bought a slightly used, late model Ferrari for $200,000 dollars (totally expecting it to have a 500 horsepower Ferrari engine in it for that price) and after receiving the car find it has a 300 horsepower Mustang engine under the hood, would YOU be happy? I wouldn't be and that is because the item I received was materially different then what I paid my money for and what I had expected to receive.

Doesn't matter if I am a Ferrari expert or not in this case.

Now, in my hypothetical situation, if my Ferrari mechanic says the car has the proper Ferrari engine but should have red valve covers instead of the blue ones currently on it, then I don't really have a basis for complaing too much.

In this case, the seller is putting their faith in GAI (from what I have read so far, not really a good idea). The faith that GAI could tell the difference between a complete, intact card and a trimmed card. When the buyer sent it off to SGC and they said the card was trimmed, then the buyer wants his money back based on what he received was not what he paid for. Should the buyer have been leery of a GAI card? Yes and that is why he sent it off for a second opinion (from a company he trusts more than GAI.

For those who don't like this then I will ask you a question. How many of you have bought cards graded by GAI or PRO (for far less than what they would have sold for if they were in an SGC or PSA slab and had the same grade) because you thought they were OK? How many of you then sent the cards to SGC or PSA and had them come back slabbed with a similiar grade (as to what GAI or PRO had graded them)?

If any of you have done this, have YOU refunded the profit you made from selling those cards (if you have sold them) to the seller you bought them from? I mean, THEY put their faith in GAI or PRO (by keeping them in their slabs instead of trying to cross them over) and were hurt because of those companies reputations. So, if you took advantage of this then shouldn't you refund some or all of the profit you made?

David

I have to disagree with the above "Ferrari Analogy".

If you want to use your Ferrari analogy, it would be analogous to say that the seller of the Ferrari's mechanic says that it has a 500 horsepower engine and when you, the buyer, take it to your mechanic, your mechanic says it has a 300 horsepower engine. It comes down to which mechanic is right? Just like is it GAI or SGC?

Also, to go a little further you would have to prove that the seller knew it only had a 300 horsepower engine (if that is what is concluded) in the first place.

Ctownboy - I understand your side of the argument. I really do. The problem lies now in that (as some other poster before me stated beautifully), all sellers of GAI graded cards will be in a NO WIN situation. GAI cards sell for a tiny fraction of their SGC/PSA counterparts. If the cards cross, the buyer makes out like a bandit. He gets a card in a "supposedly" superior grading service case for a small fraction of the true amount. That amount could total thousands of dollars (like the OP's card in question). If the cards don't cross, then all they have to do is return it for a full refund (even though technically GAI is on the "approved 3rd part grader" list that Ebay has on file. It is a 100% reward situation with 0% risk for the buyer. That being said, why on god's green earth would ANY seller ever sell a GAI graded card ever again!?!?!?!?!?!?!

ctownboy is totally off base. If I cannot tell a certain motor from another and I am a Mopar expert, I find it intersting that this would come up. Buy what you know or take your chances. Learn a lesson and move on.

Rawn

This thread has become more about the card, who graded it, what grade it received, blah, blah, blah... Let's forget the card for a minute and look at the basics: Buyer purchases an item and is unhappy, he then contacts the seller for a refund (which seems to be within a reasonable timeframe), thus far the seller hasn't issued a refund and now the buyer is upset.

I've bought and sold items on Ebay and I'll offer a refund to an unhappy buyer just out of moral obligation (both refunds I offered were damage to the items during shipping... once they sent me a photo of the damage, instant refund!). The question is how long can a buyer hold onto an item before they request a refund? If it's a product that can be used and damaged by neglect such as electronics, then the timeframe is shortened. In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days. I know the refund timeframe will differ from person to person but in this case it boils down to good business ethics and if nothing else... common courtesy. The seller will get the card back in the same condition he sold it in.... offer a second chance purchase to the next high bidder or relist! He'll still get around $1k for the card whether it's from Todd or from the next guy who wins it.

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.
Seller relists the card again, but because of so much negative publicity surrounding this card, this time it only sells for $500. Winning bidder pays, sends it to SGC for the upgrade, except this time SGC gives it an "88/7.5" same grade crossover. Now the card is worth the $3,000 and the seller only received $500. This card is going to be forever tainted as a 0% risk card for the buyer and a 100% liability for the seller. As long as the winning bidder submits it and it doesn't cross, he returns it for 100% refund. I am still not convinced the card is trimmed, as it was graded under the old GAI label when Mike Baker was looking at the cards....

45 days??? What the hell???

Mike- first of all, he will have no chance probably of getting that price because the card is tainted. Just look at this thread. Secondly, todd knew what the card was and the seller's no refund listing on the auction. If the card did cross to an sgc 88, i wonder if todd would send paul $2k for the difference in the value? I don't think so.

I hear what you are saying but the seller does not own ebay or paypal. If a buyer can return anything they wan't regardless if auction or BIN then sellers need to be prepared to deal with these situations. If not they might want to consider making their own website and not deal with Ebay, or buy a table at show and get cash in hand. Anything can be returned for any reason as long as it is the same as when bought, GAI, PRO, SGC, PSA, RAW. I'm sure there are many out there who play the bump game and if doesn't work return the card, but they will get blocked by seller after seller. The seller is using Ebay to make money, he has to deal with the issues that come with it along with their rules, and by not communicating got blasted. If he had just responded to Todd explaining he was sorry this happened but he does not except returns and feels bad none of this might have happened but he didn't so we will never know. You might not want to accept a return, but with Ebay/Paypal don't really have a choice. Refund and relist, happens all the time.

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

Huh?
 

I've held out long enough. My opinion (like anyone cares): you buy a graded card, unless it's been tampered with, that's it. If it's trimmed or mis-graded, that's on the grading company, not the seller. How is the seller responsible for what a TPG says? That's stupid. He offers an encapsulated card with a grade and sells it. Once it leaves his hands, he should be done. He doesn't owe the buyer one red cent (again, my opinion) if another grading company has another opinion. After hundreds of responses, I still can't believe people think the seller is responsible. Honestly, if I was the buyer, I never would have even considered returning it to the seller because it didn't cross to my liking. The only out the buyer has if is he thinks the card /holder was tampered with on the sellers end.
Thanks for listening.

Again, analogy is wrong.

You are now claiming, by your analogy, that the seller left out information that the card was trimmed (see bold above).

According to GAI, which is all that the seller could go on, the card was not trimmed. He didn't leave out the fact that the card was trimmed because he and GAI did not believe it was trimmed.

Incorrect analogy again.

David- good story, but i don't think you are comparing apples to apples.

Well said tony!