It seems we are dealing with three separate phenomena: (1) some auction prices seemingly out of line, (2) some cards appearing for sale shortly after they "sold" at auction; and (3) some cards appearing to be recycled through several auctions.

In any given case, of course one could construct an innocent explanation, and it might be correct. And it all could be innocent. But in my opinion there is enough there that one can legitimately raise questions without it being a so-called witchhunt.

One other observation: people are fond of arguing by extrapolation, MY card didn't do so well, therefore nothing must be going on. Or I won at less than my top all, therefore nothing must be going on. While there is a superficial appeal, and I recall the same arguments about Mastro, they don't really prove or disprove anything. IF for example, there was a pattern and practice of only selling cards if they met a hidden reserve, it is more likely an auction house would have that understanding with dealers than with collectors, because there is a far better chance of preserving secrecy. Similarly, IF an auction house was inclined to sometimes run people up to a maximum bid, it probably would only do so selectively to try to minimize detection.

The bottom line is, one can only observe the facts and try to understand them, and everyone's perception including my own is going to be colored by their personalities, experiences, and self-interest.

PS I agree with Greg that card doctoring is a more serious problem.

Goodwin Thread
 

Thank you Mike for clarifying....I inadvertantly stated Heritage auctioning the three '56 Mantle's...it is Mile High.

Regards,
Joe T.

Hi Joe T..need to email with you asap....
 

Joe- I have sent you 3 messages.....1 through PM, 1 through outside email and 1 through the email in our Net54 system. Please answer one of them asap....thanks

Goodwin Thread
 

Greg,

Since Jeff refuses to answer your question about the Plow Candy Cobb I will try and help. I wanted that card in the worst way and waged a bidding war with someone, being outbid several times AFTER the $14K Mastro figure. Personally, for a card like that, I didn't care one bit about exceeding a prior figure...I wanted the card! I do know who won the card......it sold. There you have it. Two people who collect high end Cobb items refusing to lose until one of us (I'm the wimp!) bowed out.

Sometimes things are a lot more simple than they look!

Joe

Goodwin pick-up
 

I am very psyched about this win in the recent Goodwin auction. :)
<a href='http://img269.imageshack.us/i/n172duffysgc30.jpg/'><img src='http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2801/n172duffysgc30.jpg' border='0' alt='Image Hosted by ImageShack.us'/></a><br/>

Does anyone know if Joe Tomasullo (sp?) is still writing the descriptions for Goodwin's auction lots?

Wow, crickets.

Anyone know anything about the guy who writes Goodwin's flowery auction descriptions? Is his name Joe Tomusello (sp?)?

Had that in my hand at National Matt! That is a very cool piece!! Congrats, Dan.

You don't bring me flowers anymore......
 

Jeff,

not sure but whoever writes the descriptions might just be in touch with their feminine side and I won't hold that against Goodwin and Company. They are great people.

Matt,

You stole that Ruth item. It is a one of a kind and was a nice deal!!

Yes, Toby, we all know they are 'great' people. No one disputes that.

catalog descriptions
 

On the subject of auction catalog item descriptions, connections to sports history and sports card history can make for entertaining reading, but what is most relevant to me, as a potential bidder, is the accuracy of the descriptions relative to item condition. On that score, I think Brian Drent (Mile High Card Co.) is now as good or better than anyone in the business, at least among the auctions and items that I personally have been looking at. He seems to be making a concerted effort to give balanced descriptions that include both the stronger and weaker condition attributes of each item, including subtle defects that might be missed just looking at a digital scan.

GREAT lawyer
 

Jeff, you must be a 'GREAT' lawyer that defends 'GREAT' people

As a buyer, I'm concerned with any tactic that chases sellers away. Otherwise though, I am pretty much unaffected, as I very seldom search by subcategory anyway (and believe it or not, in addition to some specific sets and players, I'm also a type collector).

OOPS, wrong thread.

Bob, good second post.

I defend people according to what our laws permit - you know, the Constitution and all. I don't break the law while defending them. You can see the difference between that and fraud, right?

If nothing else, it seems this thread has prompted participation from folks rarely heard from previously on the board.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that comment, Bob, but it seems pretty misguided.

Although I hope to never find out for myself, by all accounts, Jeff appears to pretty a pretty damn good lawyer. (Perhaps even "great".)

As far as whom he defends, I'm proud to live in a country where EVERYONE accused of wrongdoing has the right to receive a solid defense. Your comment seems to suggest that some people don't deserve that kind of quality defense. If that's what you meant, you're in the wrong country.

I think we all know what I was implying, Jeff has accused someone of wrongdoing without a shred of evidence, only conjecture and hypothesis. I understand that our legal system is the best in the world (I have lived outside the US many years) but I am entitled to my opinion (another great thing about living in this country) and in my opinion Jeff is handling this poorly by damaging the reputation of an honest person. And this I speak from fact.

nm

All Jeff has done is that he has seen some dramatic abnormalities in the sales prices of items from this particular auction house, and pointed them out.

A couple of years ago, he pointed out some similar irregularities with another auction house and was harshly criticized for his take. How'd that work out?

Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but this is a Vintage Baseball Card Forum, which makes Jeff's thoughts on an auction's potential irregularities completely "on topic".

Conversely, your post on Jeff's chosen profession is totally "off topic".

I don't care if he picks up trash for the city. If he sees things being done wrongly I want to hear and read about it.

If you disagree with his opinion, go ahead. Say why. But leave the straw man arguments out of the discussion.


Edited to add: I'm not sure I'd use the term "without a shred of evidence." He offered plenty of evidence. Most of it was circumstantial, but it's still evidence.

Edited again: You said, "And this I speak from fact." Care to offer any of those facts?

You managed to insult sanitation workers and straw men in a single post. :D

Edit to add Anyone here think 11K for a PSA 9 Red Heart Mantle seems unusual? Just curious.

Reasons I can think of:

1. Marketing

2. Rare cards sell for high prices no matter what the economy. I think most collectors know about the rarity of high-grade Red Hearts.

3. Marketing

4. Really cool description in the auction catalog. (Did you know Mickey Mantle was born in Spavinaw, Okla.?)

5. Marketing

Rob thanks those had not occurred to me.

1. Steal underwear

2.

3. Profit

Actually, my take on NYC is that it would be a far better place with a few more Sanitation Workers and a few less lawyers. But I no longer tilt at windmills.

peter, i think i have seen that card sell 10 times for around the $3,500 range. where did it sell for $11,000? excuse me if i missed it. i would assume without looking it was a goodwin auction? i am implying this because of the location of your post not saying bill g is doing any wrong doings. so how are you doing:)

And this discussion would be even better with more straw men than already have been raised.

(Does best Ella Fitzgerald imitation)
It was just, one, of those things....
http://goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=2231

Marty,

$11,294 in the August 2007 Goodwin auction.

VCP list 25 transactions of that card, in that grade, between August 2006 and June 2009. The other 24 are all between $2400 and $4,000.

But the August 2007 one was really written up well. (Almost like a newspaper editor did it, or something!)

Peter,

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it appears you have an axe (sic) to grind. Did you not read this:

Great gloss, fantastic borders and ultra vivid blue background makes (sic) this card jump out at you. Fantastic back.

The card jumps out at you. I doubt the other PSA 9s JUMPED at you. (By the way, Mickey Mantle had a 38-inch vertical leap, something that had it been noted in the auction description, likely would have resulted in $1,000 more added to the hammer price.)

Hope this helps.

"Newspaper editor"... See what I mean?

Circumstantial evidence is evidence. I know this for a fact.

Red Heart Mantle PSA 9

6/4/09 eBay $4,000.00
4/5/09 Memory Lane $3,435.70
12/19/08 Mastro $2,400.00
9/1/08 eBay $3,800.00
8/4/08 eBay $3,151.10
6/29/08 eBay $2,700.00
5/30/08 Goodwin $3,124.32
3/6/08 Goodwin $3,697.00
2/14/08 eBay $3,106.00
1/21/08 eBay $2,945.00
1/7/08 eBay $2,500.00
12/18/07 eBay $3,569.00
12/14/07 Mastro $3,049.20
12/9/07 eBay $2,999.99
11/30/07 Goodwin $3,124.00
8/24/07 Goodwin $11,294.00
5/31/07 Goodwin $2,581.00
5/23/07 eBay $3,375.99
3/17/07 eBay $3,200.00
12/18/06 eBay $3,230.00
12/8/06 Mastro $2,722.00
11/7/06 eBay $3,350.00
10/28/06 Heritage $3,107.00
10/4/06 Goodwin $3,525.00
8/19/06 Mastro $3,285.30
8/11/06 Memory Lane $4,074.45
7/24/06 eBay $3,250.00

More facts:

1967 Topps Maury Wills PSA 8: the card sold 34 times in the past three years, 25 times between $100 and $200….and once for $349, the only time Goodwin sold it. Coincidentally, the same card was on ebay the very night the Goodwin auction closed – and the ebay card sold for $146.

1949 Bowman Duke Snider PSA 7

9/3/09 eBay $812.00
5/8/09 Goodwin $904.75
2/7/09 eBay $798.00
11/17/07 eBay $1,137.00
8/24/07 Goodwin $2,888.00
10/19/06 eBay $1,110.55
9/6/06 eBay $1,091.66

And finally, Bob, try to have more respect for defense lawyers. It's a thankless job sometimes and very stressful. After all, I have respect for the company which hosts Goodwin's auctions, i.e. yours, so turnabout should be fair play.

really? ouch.

Really.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87562

Well, I asked him what his "facts" were and got no response. I guess I know why.

Jim, I certainly don't mind if Bill's friends chime in and support him as long as they note their biases; after all, what are friends for? What's worse is when some support Bill and/or attack me and fail to note their financial bias; this is misleading. You know, like if someone who was attacking me was a big consignor to Bill. Or wrote his flowery and often grammatically incorrect auction write-ups. Or who tried to collect money for Bill.

Now isn't it time to attack Dave Forman again?

Jeff you are projecting again. Nobody on this thread has attacked you. At this point I would be hard pressed to not defend JP when it his turn to burned at the stake by you.

Jeff--Extremely interesting. The thing I find most confusing is that a PSA9 Mantle sold three times in six months, all in Goodwin auctions. The first and last sales were not abnormally priced, just the second. Do you know if these were all the same card or if they were different ones? If the same, that would make your analysis even more damming. Also, while it is always possible that a consignor had a friend shill up his or her lot, you need an underbidder to get this high. Unless there were two shills that still implies at least one "agressive" bidder out there. If you are implying that Bill ran these up, why would he do it on the middle auction but not on the other two?

I find some of the information Jeff has posted disturbing to say the least. However, my experiences with Goodwin have all been pretty good (except for that time where they forgot to mail me the card I won for quite some time -- that got fixed pretty quickly after I called though). I can only remember placing two "toppling" bids, one of which I won under my max and one of which I lost. The other times I won (and I have certainly lost some as well), I did so the old fashioned way -- I stayed up and bid again when someone outbid me on a card I really wanted. I guess that could have been a friend of the consignor bidding me up, but I certainly wouldn't allege that because I have no basis upon which to make that type of accusation.

BTW, I don't have a dog in this fight in terms of being a consignor. I have never consigned even one of my cards to Goodwin, Mastro . . . er Legendary, REA, Mile High, or anyone else. My card buying habits are akin to the proverbial black hole. Once I suck them in, they never go back out. Unless a catastrophe occurs or I die (in which case I suspect that my wife will happily clear out all those pieces of cardboard that obstruct her ability to have her clothes fill up every closet in our house), my cards will remain in my safes and safe deposit boxes and I will continue to buy, not sell.

While my anecdotal experience with Goodwin does not by any means prove or disprove any of the allegations that have been made in this post, it is also circumstantial evidence. Fair is fair, and if the suspicious auction results are going to be focused on, so should those results which seem to be on the up and up. My two cents.

Kenny Cole

Kenny of course most of the auction results are within reason but with due respect that isn't the point. IF, and I say if because I don't know, even one auction was shilled, or a sale reported that didn't occur (see Corey's post on the potential harm that can cause), that would be wrong. So even a small subset of prices that seem dramatically out of line (and quite a few have been posted and these are just examples from what I have observed), or cards for sale after they supposedly were auctioned, or cards that seem to be recycled through auctions, that in my always humble opinion is worthy of being discussed. And that is all it is, a discussion, not a trial or a witchhunt.

If the threshold for being allowed to discuss the potential that wrongdoing has occurred is "proof," one could almost never discuss such things on a forum like this. I am sure there are many people here who would prefer it that way. But I think it's a legitimate discussion.

Peter has cited something which seems so obvious about this entire discussion. Nobody is suggesting in any way that all lots in any auction are shilled. Even Mastro Auctions, which was clearly involved in shilling, perhaps manipulated 5% of any given auction (this number is a guess). Only certain lots in any auction will be targeted, such as:

1) lots with high ceiling bids
2) lots bid on by certain collectors who the auction house know well, and also know will keep bidding to any level until they get the lot. Those kind of bidders have been targeted and shilled for a very long time; it is not a recent phenomenon.
3) lots that appear to be going too cheaply and the auction house will gladly buy them at those levels.
4) lots that may have secret reserves.

So in any scenario, even the most egregious, we are only talking about a small number of targeted lots. Posters have come on this thread stating they consigned three lots and got paid, or left a ceiling bid and won a lot for less than their max. That is fine, but the fact is those posters are entirely missing the point of this discussion.

I have no idea what goes on in a Goodwin Auction, I have never participated. But to turn a blind eye to some of the outrageous results appears shortsighted.

It seems like the auctions in question total around $20K in abnormal sales on the high side. If the house cut is 30%, why would they mess around risking their reputation over $6K?

jeff,I have a psa 9 from Sussor you can have for $455! How's that!
 

This beautiful 62 Topps leader card~!;)

Late weigh in.
I consigned the S81 Speaker (Lot 41) in Bill's auction just ended.
I expected it to fetch somewhere in the $5k - $6k range before the vig.
I will say I was disappointed with the results achieved and, by inference, would suggest there was no shilling or hidden reserve going on. And to satisfy Jeff's healthy auditor's skepticism, I did not, repeat did NOT bid on my own lot.
The market dictated the value.
Based on this and my previous transactions with Bill, I will step up and say he runs an fair auction.
Thanks for reading.
Bob

We really need some of those consignors who have those 1967 PSA 8 commons which sell for 5K to speak up.

And are consignors permitted to bid on their own lots in Goodwin's auction?

It is very reassuring to hear that Lot 41 was legit.

One thing not to lose track of in these discussions is that anyone can bid on their own items in any auction--all they need is a friend or family member to set up a separate account. So the consternation over the dreaded specter of consignor bidding is really a waste of energy since there is nothing an auctioneer can do to detect or prevent it if a consignor has half a brain and is intent on doing it.

If a consignor wins his own card does the consignor have to pay the buyer's premium? That is, if a consignor can bid in the first place.

Our software prevents any consignor from bidding on their own items.

Peter -- the answer is yes, the consignor has to pay the buyer's premium (and any other applicable commissions) if they win their own card, assuming they can bid in the first place. (And if they can't, as Exhibitman said, a surrogate can do it for them.) However they may still come out ahead if, say, they have to eat the BP on 2 lots but can successfully shill 3 others into the stratosphere.