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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"And Gitmo has become a symbol around the world of injustice."<br><br>--To people who would look for an excuse to bash America. <br><br>I would hope that using children as human shields in war, blowing up girls' schools because girls should not be educated, beheading gays and those who would dare to convert to a different religion, storing bombs inside mosques and preaching genocide are bigger symbols around the world of injustice.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>I would hope so too, Jeff, but it doesn't seem to be the case.<br><br>Maybe it's because the people and/or nations that are doing that have never served as <i>the</i> symbol of freedom, fairness, and justice for all, as our country has done.<br><br>They have never deeply disappointed the world by their cowardly actions.<br><br>We have.
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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"George W Bush was the best president we have ever had. " <br><br>Sigh....<br><br>And Mussolini made all the trains run on time.....
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The United States should set the standard. ALWAYS! There is no excuse for how the terrorists act and we should never stoop to their level.
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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"My hope is southern Dems will align with Reps. and block his extremist agenda"<br><br>Jim, I hate to burst your bubble but the South is no longer the conservative, racially driven, backward area of the country it was many decades ago. Southern Democrats are more and more being elected who are Hispanic, African-American and closer to the (shudder) liberal agendas than conservative. While the Republican party in the South is comprised heavily of the Christian Right, the Democratic Party in the South is steadily moving away from the ultra conservative policies of the past and embraces not only liberals but middle of the roaders and will slowly turn the South "blue again" in the future.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"the Democratic Party in the South is steadily moving away from the ultra conservative policies of the past and embraces not only liberals but middle of the roaders and will slowly turn the South "blue again" in the future."<br><br>It's already begun.<br><br>Hence, this congratulatory thread.<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"They have never deeply disappointed the world by their cowardly actions. We have."<br><br>I hardly think that our actions in prosecuting the war on terror could be considered to be cowardly -- especially when compared with some of the atrocious things done by our enemy, radical Islamists. That's sort of a blame America first mentality to some degree. And the followers of radical Islam use our decency and our desire to be humane against us -- it's one of their biggest weapons. For example, terrorists hiding amongst civilians so as to avoid being targeted as well as hiding weapons in mosques and hospitals to avoid discovery -- knowing full well American forces will respect the very places they themselves have no respect for.<br><br>I don't disagree that Americans are better than these people and we should not sink to their level; however, if we don't start adjusting to their monstrous actions by doing away with some of our political correctness we're going to be in more trouble than we are now.
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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz<br>< br>Thanks again to everybody who respected the purpose of this thread.<br>JimB
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Gobama<br><br>I couldn't imagine anyone wanting Obama to do anything but succeed in pulling this country out of this economic mess. Is it possible? I don't know but I sure hope he can do it. <br><br>The truly sad part about Obama is that he is inheriting an economy that is arguably one of the worst to be turned over to an incoming administration. He will be looked upon to having all the answers and solutions. If he can't get this turned around people will be waiting in line to say what a mistake we made as a nation to elect him as our leader. I think we had no choice. If McCain passes away in the next four years everyone will be saying we made the right move regardless of which way the economy goes. <br><br><font size="+3"><b>Gobama</b></font><br><br>If they remove the prison from Gtmo what does that get us? Nothing. They'll move the operation to another location. Are there people that actually believe that removing the prison from Gtmo is going to solve anything? Here's where people will be afraid to say they agree with me because I'm going to out myself as some kind of radical. I'm sorry, but does anybody really think that if Gtmo is removed there will be no "exotic" forms of information extraction? Does anybody really care if a suspected terrorist is filled with sodium pentathol in an effort to gather information? Is our government supposed to sit back and wait for someone to "talk" or are we supposed to wait until it's too late? If the government has firm evidence that someone (a terrorist for example) has information that is meant to hurt people then I think I'll play like an ostrich, bury my head in the sand or do a Horatio Nelson and turn a blind eye with regards to how they extract information from those "bad people". Sorry, but that's just the way I feel. If someone is going to debate this, please don't start by feeding me a load of crap that begins with "our rights". I'll gladly let the government take a few liberties if it means that I can sleep better and live to enjoy "our rights".
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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Jim,<br><br>In all seriousness, what the heck did you expect? Have you <em>ever</em> seen a political thread on this board (at least in the past two years) not take the course this one has taken? I mean, come on.<br><br>Nice display of indignation, though.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Hey Jim<br><br>You throw a morsel of red meat to the sharks and tell them not to attack? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> C'mon my friend... You did try though. I give you much credit for that, even if I had to throw a small bit into the fray....sorry about that. It was a very well inentioned thread and a good one. I do know that. I will go back to my original statement. I wish President Obama the best and hope he has great success. It won't be easy.....best regards<br><br><br>edited to add that Rob (hey Rob) posted while I was posting....or I might not have said the same thing....but I knew I liked him for some reason.....
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"I hardly think that our actions in prosecuting the war on terror could be considered to be cowardly"<br><br>Torture and rendition--paying someone else to do your torturing for you--are certainly cowardly acts.<br><br>And hiding weapons and fighters amongst civilians is cowardly as well. But it no longer works. Israel just proved that. And if push comes to shove, we'd do exactly the same as Israel. (As well we should.)
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Posted By: <b>marty q</b><p> jimb- honestly, did you think your thread would go over nicely?? you had to have known where it would go giving the boards "past" on subjects as sensitive as this would be another ""exploding bomb"". i knew as soon as i read it what the outcome would be. and as usual it brings out a certain few who post only when there is a discussion not pertaining to what this board is about "BASEBALL CARDS" . and once again the board lets down all who come here to read a few posts on their spare time on just that. the hundreds or thousands of lurkers must be saying to themselves "here we co again, and again , and again, etc etc etc etc. i think now you wished you never would have posted this...me too.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>The thread is clearly labeled "OT." Meaning "off topic." And the topic is baseball cards.<br><br>Thus, no cards in this thread.<br><br>If all you're interested in is cards, <i>don't</i> open the OT threads.<br><br>Not very difficult, really.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"if we don't start adjusting to their monstrous actions by doing away with some of our political correctness we're going to be in more trouble than we are now."<br><br>Are you referring to such "politically correct" niceties as habeas corpus? Or requiring a warrant before wiretapping?<br><br>If you are, don't worry. We've already done away with them.<br><br>(I heard a rumor, though, that they're about to be restored.)
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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>"I am not sure who said it but I am an advocate of the phrase Love your country unconditionally. Love your government because they deserve it."<br><br>I don't know that one either, but I think we can safely rule out George Washington.
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Posted By: <b>marshall barkman</b><p>the hundreds or thousands of lurkers must be saying to themselves "here we co again, and again , and again, etc etc etc etc. i think now you wished you never would have posted <br><br>Marty do you really believe there are that many people watching a baseball card message board? <br><br>I must also say that i am shocked to read some of the posts in regards to Obama closing Gtmo . No matter what anyone says their were more fatalities on Sept 11 2001 than Pearl Harbor and we all know Truman's response to that attack. The bastards at Gtmo should have been be-headed and have the heads mailed back to their families to understand that we can fight fire with fire.<br><br>To many people are critical of Bush and some of his policies and i think those same people should watch the tape of individuals jumping out of the twin towers falling to their death and just how many families were destroyed that tragic day.<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>that two wrongs do not make a right.<br><br>Joshua
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"Torture and rendition--paying someone else to do your torturing for you--are certainly cowardly acts."<br><br>So torture by onesself is not cowardly? <br><br>What about flying planes into buildings in an effort to kill innocents? <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br><br>In the eyes of the loony left, flying planes into buildings was a plot between the US and Israel so Bush could use it as a pretext for invading Iran.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Learn to parse a sentence, Jeff. The one above states that torture <i>and</i> rendition are <i>both</i> cowardly acts. The hyphenated segment merely defines rendition.<br><br>More to the point, you are (intentionally, I think) <i>missing</i> the point. I never said the other side has not committed--and continues to commit cowardly acts. Indeed, I began by stating that they do. The point though, is that <i>we're</i> supposed to be better than them. We have a more than two-century old standard to maintain. They don't. We are (or at least once were) looked up to by the rest of the world. They were not.<br><br>Should we fly their airplanes into their buildings?
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Right, Jim.<br><br>And the ridiculous right thinks that illegal immigration is a plot to turn the red states blue.<br><br>(And that George W. Bush was the best president this country has ever had.)<br><br>
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br><br><br><br>I hate to burst your bubble but there are now 51 Blue Dog Democrats in the House whose agenda does not sound like the Barack socialist plan for America. The formula for southern democrats is 95% of the African American vote, 80% of the Hispanic and perhaps 25% of the white vote. The Blue Dogs have significantly grown in strength. You may think the southern voter has turned liberal being up near Canada but I spend a lot of time in the south and they haven't--if anything I think the Southern white voter is mre conservative.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No David, we won't fly our planes into their buildings because we are not a culture which glorifies death over life, unlike radical Islam. <br><br>And I say this respectfully -- seriously: instead of limiting my rhetoric to a baseball chat board I actually spent the last eight years fighting the Bush government in an effort to enforce constitutional rights for those arrested and charged with crimes. The inclusion of dracnoian new laws quietly slipped into the Patriot Act having nothing to do with the war on Islamic terror was pitiful; however, I can't say that I'm concerned with any efforts made by our government to keep us safe from Muslim terror. And those picked off the battlefield don't merit the rights that those charged with crimes in the United States Code do. That's just the way I feel. Imagine how the jihadists are laughing when they read that their brothers in Gitmo are receiving Gameboys and lawyers. <br><br>Anyway, I don't want to turn this thread (any further) into a referendum on the use of torture because while I don't agree with some of the posters here on this issue I am certain that no one's heart is in the wrong place here, which I think is of paramount importance.
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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Re: Congrats to Obama (OT) January 22 2009, 2:58 PM <br><br><br>Patrick said: "George W Bush was the best president we have ever had. " <br><br><br>Perhaps in some bizzaro-like, parallel universe, but not on the planet earth. He was an intellectually disinterested man who allowed those surrounding him to run things. He will go down in history as one of, if not the, worst President in the history of the USA. <br><br><br>For the record, I am a life long Republican who has voted for Democrats exactly three times in my life, and two of those were purely anti-Bush votes. My vote for Obama was a protest to the GOP for what we have become. <br><br>The last eight years have divided our country more deeply than at any time since the Civil War. For the GOP to become successful again, the key is to heal that divide, not widen it. Both sides have their extremists. Always have. Always will. But roughly 80% of our country is centrist in their thinking. To allow a party to be led by the 10% on their fringe is suicidal. <br><br> <br> <br>Best post I've seen in a long time. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.
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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Personally, I am disappointed that Bin Laden hasn't been caught, and that I still have to pay my mortgage.
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>at least on the mortgage........<br><br>Bin Laden's at Epcot right now...........<br>
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Tom, <br><br>Bin Laden is NOT at Epcot. Stop with the rumors! <br><br>He's driving a cab in NYC. He does his best to avoid all tunnels and bridges however, which is tough in that city. <br><br><br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Leon -<br>I'm really impressed that you didn't lock the thread yet. You're getting more tolerant in your old age <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif"><img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif"><img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif">
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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Instead of fighting a neo con nightmare war, perhaps the right war that is going on in Afghanistan would have led to the death or capture of Bin Laden.<br>Even the generals are saying we are LOSING the war in Afghanistan. How will we ever kill Bin Laden if that is what is happening. <br>Thanks to Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith and all the other neo cons , who probably never served in the military (for sure Cheney never did, four deferments during Vietnam), for the deaths of over 4000 American soldiers and the lifetime destruction of the lives of hundreds of thousands of American wounded and Iraqi dead and wounded.<br>=<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br>Unknown author <br>--<br>We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br>No retreat baby, no surrender.<br>The Boss
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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> Joel Kotkin: The End of Upward Mobility. "the top 1% of US households' . . . net worth is now greater than that of the bottom 90% of the nation's households combined (data compiled by Citigroup)." Seems fair.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Of course it's fair, John.<br><br>Those 1% work much harder, and are far more productive than the bottom 90%.<br><br>It's true. Jim Crandell told me.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, who do you hate most:<br><br>a) rich people<br>b) Islamic terrorists<br>c) all of the above<br>
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Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>d) himself?
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Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>No way is the answer b.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>If Obama went for the flat tax I might alter my opinion on him somewhat. Everybody pay the exact same percentage of what they make--no deductions.
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Posted By: <b>Tim Sanders</b><p>A few thoughts......<br><br>1) As much as the distaste for President Obama keeps me up at night, he is now my president and I wish him the best and hope I am wrong. <br><br>2) Does everyone agree with the policies of Bush? ... No, but if we are congratulating one man for coming in why are we not thanking one man for 8 years of service? <br><br>3) If we are venturing off the topic of the thread, maybe the title should change to January political thread (there seems to be one each month anyway).<br><br>4) I still want to know why President Obama wasted his first executive orders on abortion and Gitmo and didn't formally create an "Office of the President Elect" - afterall how green is the man with all those cool signs he has now wasted!<br><br>5) Speaking of politics- Jeff when are you going to be on the radio again, I caught you filling in a few weeks ago and even being a Democrat you speak some common sense (but I still miss smoking and you talking about it makes me miss it more!!!)
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>JimB,<br><br>I think, overall, this wasn't too bad. There weren't really any battles on this thread. It's not like anyone that posts in this forum is "too" opinionated (yeah, right). Overall, I would have to believe that most of us (whether or not we voted for Obama) wish him well. <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Bob- I hate to burst your bubble but there are now 51 Blue Dog Democrats in the House whose agenda does not sound like the Barack socialist plan for America. The formula for southern democrats is 95% of the African American vote, 80% of the Hispanic and perhaps 25% of the white vote. The Blue Dogs have significantly grown in strength. You may think the southern voter has turned liberal being up near Canada but I spend a lot of time in the south and they haven't--if anything I think the Southern white voter is mre conservative.><br><br>Up near Canada? I have spent the last 42 years of my life living in Arkansas and unless someone has re-done the geographical map of the U.S., Arkansas is in the deep South and always has been. It is the home of Bill Clinton who in 92 and 96 showed the Democratic Party that it could win Southern States by moving away from the right to the center. There are lots of Blue Dogs, but there is a reason these Senators and Representatives are Democrats and not Republicans, they are ideologically closer to the center than the "Christian/Fundamentalist" Right which hijacked the Republican Party in the South. Slowly times are a-changing and the South grows more and more Blue with the combination of not only African-Americans and increasing numbers of Hispanics, but also the growing number of young people who are voting Democratic. The "Old South" is gone. People are beginning to realize that just because someone is for guns, against any kind of abortion and against gay marriage, it is no longer enough. As James Carville once said, "It's about the economy, stupid." That helped Clinton win 2 terms. It helped Obama win this time. <br>I probably don't run with the same crowd you do Jim, maybe the bankers and millionaires are still conservative, but the hard working union members, the single mothers struggling to raise a family, the blue collar workers across the South, the students in our colleges, the Hispanics striving to find the American dream and the African-Americans seeking to realize theirs, the influx of folks from the North and West coming to the Sunbelt, and so many other groups realize who represents their interests and who doesn't. Statistics also show that as the number of college graduates increase in the South, so too does the liberal and centrist percentage increase. The face of the South has changed forever.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Bob--I thought you were from Minnesota. I have only been to Arkansas once--had lunch with Sheffield Nelson in Little Rock. Do you know him?
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Tim, sorry about that rant about smoking but it (clearly) drives me crazy. I mean, really, the lipstick on the butts that then get tossed on the ground? I'm right, aren't I? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"> Not sure when I'll be back on again.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't know what your rant about smokers was all about as I didn't hear it, but what really grinds my gears ($1 to someone) is when someone throws their cigarette out of the car window. Then again some of those folks that actually do use the ashtray in their car dump the whole tray out in my parking lot....I get that at least once or twice a week.
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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>I may be a tree-hugging liberal but I agree with your implied distaste for cultural relativism, Jeff. However, I doubt that the proposed closure of Gitmo is being celebrated by or inducing snickering among Islamic fundamentalists. In fact, I think just the opposite could be true. By closing the facility, we remove a potent symbol: a Guantanamo detainee is probably much more valuable to the skilled propagandists of radical Islam than is an inmate unceremoniously housed in a Supermax facility. The time has come to shutter a facility that may very well have undermined our efforts to contain and hopefully quash such a warped worldview. <br><br><br><br>And to bring us back to cards...Will trade T206's for 1st edition Shepard Fairey "Hope" poster.<br><br><a href="http://imageevent.com/yawie99" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://imageevent.com/yawie99</a>
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Posted By: <b>B O'Brien</b><p>I am a smoker, and an anti-litter kind of guy, but my car doesn't even have an ash tray. For some odd reason they stopped putting them in new cars. It's even from the other side of the pond, where smoking is still OK! Got to pitch them out the window, they stink to bad to keep them inside and they have some side effects on my fine corinthian leather. Not sure what corinthian is, but it always make me chuckle.<br>Check the BST, about to put a nice T out this evening!<br>Take care all,<br>Bob
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Steve, I think that is a very fair point: as was often said during the recent Israeli/Hamas conflict, the only thing more valuable to Hamas than a dead Israeli was a dead Palestinian child. In essence, G-Bay became a convenient pretext for many anti-Americans to use to simply bash America. Beyond ironic, surely hilarious, was the screaming and yelling from Islamist corners about the awfulness of the facility, all the while conveniently ignoring their own practices of subjugation of women, genital mutilation, use of children and civilians as shields in warefare, intolerance of religions other than Islam, open discussions of genocide, (real) torture of prisoners, executions of gays, Holocaust denials, etc. etc. etc. Sadly, I think many well-meaning Americans took the bait and joined in the chorus of "America bad" because of the facility. (Of course, the fact that 61 former detainees rejoined Jihad upon release was a minor fact ignored by most of the naysayers -- why let facts get in the way of a good argument?)<br><br>All that being said, the immediate order closing the facility along with the olive branch extended by Obama in an attempt to "reassure" Muslims is seen by many of our enemies as appeasement and weakness. Time will tell, however, whether Obama is a sniveling appeaser or an effective leader in the <i>war on terror</i> (woops, can't use that phrase anymore, it's offensive). While I didn't vote for the guy, I'm hoping he's of the latter ilk as it will keep us safer and in the end that trumps all. And I do think the fact that Obama is at least capable of making it much harder for our enemies to demonize America is a great thing for our country. <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Obama is not going to be weak on terror...he's already taken it to them in Pakistan today. <br><br><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=asT7dc6h8HyY&refer=a sia" target="_new">http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=asT7dc6h8HyY&refer=a sia</a> <br><br>
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"'the top 1% of US households' . . . net worth is now greater than that of the bottom 90% of the nation's households combined (data compiled by Citigroup).' Seems fair."<br><br><br><br>Spoken like a true socialist John. You should feel right at home the next four to eight years.
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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>To answer your question, Jeff, these are a few of my un-favorite things:<br><br><br><br>a) injustice<br>b) ignorance<br>c) greed<br>d) pomposity<br>e) right-wing, hate-mongering, radio talk-show hosts.<br><br><br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>if the well-intentioned have their way, talk radio may become a thing of the past anyway. Air America didn't really make it, and Limbaugh is currently king of the talk radio but efforts are afoot to curtail him by pushing local ownership rules. Ah.....good to see that the contsitution will be adhered to in this administration as was discussed earlier. Or do you just want to get Jeff off the air?
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I didn't realize this was such a tough question. I'll try again (with Kenny's helpful addition):<br><br>Who do you hate the most: <br><br>a) rich people <br>b) Islamic terrorists <br>c) yourself<br>d) all of the above<br><br>
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