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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Paul,<br />I think you are entirely incorrect to suppose some sort of unanamity amongst the collectors on this board, SGC and PSA.<br />I would have thought every thread, discussion, scan of cards inside holders from the grading companies, and admission of altering by auction houses, dealers and casual collectors had made that amazingly clear.<br />I think there are many who consider crease removal ok, amongst all of those groups, and others who would argue the ok'ness of every other form of card alteration.....and for some sort of validation let me supply this card.<br /><br />It has been trimmed, color added, pencil mark added to the back, and perhaps other things I am unaware of. SGC was quite happy to slab it. You say Authentic only, I say the very designation has 'ethicalized' those activities that have befallen it and that the Authentic grade of the future will have much of the cache of any other grade, especially if the card presents well. So, trimming is OK, and so is re-coloring, and for many on this board so is crease removal.<br />Please, don't try and tell me there is a single voice on card alteration.<br />That would be a joke.<br /><br />Kind regards<br /><br />And by the way, I wouldn't be adverse to an 'anything goes' rule, as long as every card sold was disclosed for its procedures, and if slabbed received nothing more than the Authentic flip. For me, it would be much clearer.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165357399.GIF">
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>yes frank, you may unfold the folded card...<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br /> Putting it in water in the first place is alteration so everything that follows is as well..and nin regard to your 2nd post I am not going to be poking holes in my holders.<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />Sorry if I cannot be more articulate--I just think that anything done to change a card is wrong and soaking changes the card--what else do you want me to say?<br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />After reading your nasty posts on card grading amd the people who grade them again and again and again and again until I sick of seeing them and your ridiculous comments, I am pretending you are not there--<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Do you disagree that "most of us seem to come out the same way on issues of trimming, color added and water soaking?"<br /><br />There are, of course, closer calls with respect to the issue of pencil erasures. Leon ran several polls in August on soaking, erasing and removing creases. Most people came out in favor of soaking and erasing, but not removing creases.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />You can ridicule us all you like but it does not change the fact that you are altering the card.<br /><br />We have seen the uproar that has occurred when you and the rest of the dealers make the rules. Most dealers are taking out light creases, soaking cards--many are microtrimming cards and reshaping/rebuilding them in various ways. I would represent the hobby is shocked.<br /><br />And you have a major grading company president calling card alteration an epidemic and that microtrimming and reshaping cards are exploding as a percentage of submissions. <br /><br />Yet all is okay in your world as a dealer.<br /><br />I am sure you are one of the honest guys as I do not know you well but I am appalled over the lack of dealer ethics and the willingness of their buddies who are collectors to look the other way!<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Sorry if I cannot be more articulate--I just think that anything done to change a card is wrong and soaking changes the card--what else do you want me to say?]<br /><br />I am just saying that a large majority of people on this board, and the major grading companies, disagree with you about soaking. If you are going to change the hearts and minds of all of these people, you are going to have to explain why it is wrong in the face of the arguments that people have been making about why it isn't wrong. Simply restating your opening position in the argument isn't going to get us anywhere.<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Daniel- depending upon how tightly the cards are glued down, if you remove them from an album without soaking them you may destroy every one of them. That can't be a good plan. And for those who aren't aware- if you studied paper restoration and conservation, soaking and cleaning are standard accepted practices. I realize that baseball cards are different than say posters or albumen photographs, where conservation and repair are more the norm. But soaking to remove glue is a time tested process. Does it alter the card in any way? Same exact card, just without the paper and glue. Seems reasonable to me (but obviously not to all).
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>After much reading and thought on this, I believe I have the reason the 3 or 4 people in the thread are staunchly against soaking. <br /><br />It's akin to people liking hot dogs, they love the finished product, but do not want to know what all happened in the processing to make it that way. To know such would spoil the flavor.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br />edited to add a consonant
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />Thats because you are not willing to say that anything you do to alter a card is wrong.<br /><br />It is a simple premise--if you cannot accept it what can I do.<br /><br />And I do not view any of the arguments on the other side as being very persuasive.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I don't know Paul, run the numbers by me again <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />No, I'm kidding. On re-coloring, trimming, and now apparently with soaking, a large majority of posters have been in favour of soaking and anti the first two. I would love to see a poll done which might draw on a whole lot more people who perhaps don't love to jump into the fray so to speak, especially into a seemingly losing cause and with the kind of condemnation posters like myself receive for EVEN QUESTIONING the practice. Still, I'd be interested in the break down on another poll.<br />And with all of these issues, I think a wider poll of collectors outside of the little world of Net54 would be altogether more interesting. And, if the thoughts of this board were wildly off-kilter with the rest of the collecting community, I wonder if this chatroom of experts we banty with would make fun of general joe and jenny for their 'lack of real knowledge', or whether people on this board might be willing to say that they had just got it wrong on these issues.<br /><br /><br />Regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Excellent point.<br /><br />After we have our hobby dinner, conference call(s) we are going to try to do some polls--I would bet that people on the cu message boards for example and hopefully lts would be against this--or would be shocked to see that it occurs...<br /><br />Yes--Scott--collectors like the finished product but I disagree with the rest--they are very angry with the dealers whose way of doing business is to alter the cards to get a higher grade.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...my position is easy. I just adhere to whatever PSA and SGC say is okay. Before I began spending oodles of money on graded T206 cards, I made sure that the industry standard for grading was something that I agreed with. No on trimming, color added; yes on water soaking. Those are the big ones for me. I never would have soaked my first card if it wouldn't get slabbed by SGC -- I'd have left the paper on the back. And I've known trimming and color adding has been a no no since a dealer wouldn't buy my 1986 Fleer Jose Canseco card after I colored in the corners and trimmed off an edge circa 1988. <br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Let me try to bottom line this:<br /><br />Whether you think soaking is right or wrong - IT DOESN'T MATTER. <br /><br />If the grading companies can't detect it, it's a non-issue. And I feel fairly confident in adding that no one is going to alert the grading company that the card they are submitting has been soaked. So until water shows up under a blacklight or they determine a method to test the water content of the paper against a guaranteed unsoaked test sample - I refrain IT DOESN'T MATTER what we think.<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If you have an army of people on the CU boards who agree with you, I recommend that you (a) post there about these things; and (b) lobby PSA to agree with you.<br /><br />Paul<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>That is how little children do it... they just pretend something isn't there...<br /><br />Do you do that with your eyes closed, Jim??? That is how little kids do it.<br /><br />Maybe try pretending that cards are not, nor have they ever been soaked. <br /><br />Reminds me of a story from when I was out campaigning door to door. I was out in the country, trying to knock on doors and ask for support. At one house there was a sign, "Free Republican Puppies" painted on a piece of plywood. I pulled up the gravel drive and knocked on the door, no one was home. Well, I couldn't let that house go unsolicited. Neighbors might mention I was out in that part of the county, and those folks would feel like I didn't stop to see them, possibly costing votes. So after a few weeks I went back out to that one house. I was in luck. A car and a pickup truck, both in the drive. And the plywood sign still leaned against a tree, but it had been repainted. "For Sale, $5 each, good Democratic Puppies". I knocked on the door, and had a nice conversation with both husband and wife. As I left the porch steps I could see that sign, so I turned and asked them about the puppies. Yes, they still had two, five dollars each. I asked about the puppies they had a few weeks earlier, and both husband and wife assured me they were the same puppies. Why did the puppies change party, why free before and now $5, what was the difference I asked.... "Oh, they have their eyes open now."
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />I'm not sure that was the conclusion--I thought in many cases you can tell if the card has been soaked???
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />I totally agree with you. Fighting against phantom alterations that can never be detected is useless and a waste of time.<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[I thought in many cases you can tell if the card has been soaked]<br /><br />Nope.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Maybe put some sort of ultaviolet dye in all oceans, lakes, creeks, rivers, clouds, puddles and ponds. Then, if some rascal uses water on a card, the card cops can catch 'em. Distribution of that dye would be a good job for that "where do we go from here" committee that's going to police slabbers and auction houses.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Scott- <br /><br />sorry to say that my views on this topic have nothing to do with the "hot dog" theory...i just don't like the idea of "soaking" cards...<br /><br />T206collector- <br /><br />were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Paul, Jack, there's an old saying back in Kentucky about wasting time like that.<br /><br />It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of time, and annoys hell outa the pig.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />If someone is going to continually resort to insults and attacks then I will not respond--and thats it--I am only going to respond to serious posts...and not from you about your right angle grading or some ridiculous comment.<br /><br />Everyone else can debate while you resort to insults--whats wrong with you?<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If soaking is detectable and the grading companies are still grading them, your beef is with them. I'm just guessing that it's not detectable and therefore, you probably own some.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I've become old and intollerant of some forms of foolishness. That is one of the things wrong with me.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />Perhaps so--you think many soaked cards are in psa 8 or psa 9 holders?<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>People like yourself are the reason SOME people alter cards, I am not talking about soaking cards at this point, but many of the other aberations you bring up. Greed. You are willing to pay ridiculous prices to satisfy your ego and registry set without learning what you are buying. YOU and others like you are what illicit dealers in ALL hobbys thrive on, an uneducated collector with big bucks looking to buy high grade material with out questioning the item. It's a viscious cirle and your caught up in it.<br /><br />The large consensus of collectors(read not investors) on this board are not concerned with any of the worries you have because they don't buy PSA 8's. (edited to add) Yes, a lot of high grade cards in all holders have been soaked out of scrap books, you probably own more than you would care to know.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Amen, Scott.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if you found an album of baseball cards and the cards were glued in and you preferred to have them out of the album, what would you do? After all, it is your album and you are free to remove them. I think you are looking at this issue in the eyes of a PSA-8 collector, and are assuming glued cards will suddenly turn into into NR MT/MT cards and find their way into holders. What if the cards, even after they are removed, would still be no better than good or very good? Why can't a collector feel free to take them out?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed.]<br /><br />The higher the grade, the less noticeable the soaking. My SGC 70 Pfeister up there early in this post has no traceable evidence. Other cards have bits of paper loss or evidence of scrapbook removal which demonstrate that the card was once in a water solution. SGC has problems with chemical removal. They may not be overtly telling you to soak your cards, or endorsing that practice -- but they will tell you that if you soak a card in water that they will grade it. I have asked them. That was the answer.<br /><br />Runscott's initial post in 2002 (citation above) spoke about lines on the reverse of T206 cards, where the card used to rest in an album. I have an SGC 50 -- formerly PSA 4 -- with those lines. Those lines are the remnants of soaking. It's obvious. Why would PSA and SGC grade those cards if they knew the card had been soaked, as I did?<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>What Scott said. <br /><br />Jim, as I have said before, you probably should have done your research on whether T206 cards could be soaked out of albums to maintain their original freshness before you started dropping thousands on those PSA 8's. <br /><br />The questions you are now asking would have better been asked before your initial purchases.<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I don't know what kind of numbers are out there, but it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that the reason there are true 8s and 9s (that haven't been trimmed, stretched,etc) is because they were safely and lovingly placed in a scrapbook at some time and not carried around in some kids pocket or rubberbanded and thrown under the bed. Hence, their corners look great and they have less wrinkles than I'll have at their age. (someone put me in a scrapbook please).
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />If you want to sell off condition cards be my guest.<br /><br />I like sharp cards and I have no interest in owninng cards that are off center, creases, a lot of wear etc.<br /><br />And it is out of line for you to suggest I and others like me collect cards to satisfy my(our) ego.<br /><br />I collect cards because I love the hobby. And from what I have seen collectors who collect high-end cards are just as passionate about the hobby as those who collect the low end stuff.<br /><br />The PSA 8 and above collectors I consider to be the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />Keep on altering those cards baby.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Do you think anyone wants to be in your Committee when you make ignorant comments like: "The PSA 8 and above collectors I consider to be the backbone of the hobby."<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Remind me to take anything you say with a grain of salt. Your guarantee is absolutely worthless. Whatever credibility you may have had just went out the window. You can't just drop words like "guarantee" into a conversation on a whim, knowing nothing about the thing you claim to guarantee. Wait, actually you can, but then your word becomes meaningless. <br /><br />You are 100% incorrect about the grading companies. They absolutely know about soaking and DO NOT consider it alteration. Call them up and ask for yourself. <br /><br />It's true. I guarantee it. <br /><br />-Ryan
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>paul,<br /><br />You are way off there.<br /><br />PSA 8s of vintage cards have far and away been the best investments in the hobby. Almost every card I have bought I could sell at a substantial project.<br /><br />I think you need to do a little research here--sorry the low-to-mid grade stuff you buy has not worked out so well.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />I have said that before on here--I believe it to be true--the low-to-mid grade collector is becoming less and less important to the hobby in my judgment.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Blach</b><p>There just hasn't been enough rancor on this thread so I thought I'd wade in.<br /><br />Who are you? <br /><br />Who are you to tell me that soaking a piece of paper stuck to the back of my zeenut card somehow makes me unethical?<br /><br />Who appointed you the "soaking police"?<br /><br />Whoever you are you haven't convinced me, nor most of the other posters on this thread, that there is anything wrong with it. In fact, though you have been asked that question over and over, you haven't been able to articulate a reasoned response to why it is improper.<br /><br /><br />Edited: In case you need to know I am Stephen R. Murray.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No need to insult the collectors of lower grade cards. The PSA-2 collector is just as passionate as the PSA-8 collector.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ryan-<br /><br />my first instinct as a red-blooded new york italian was to loose my cool and attack...but you know what? you are right, thanks for the quick lesson...i genuinely mean that. i shouldn't have used the word "guarentee"...<br /><br />what i should have said was "i would be surprised" if PSA & SGC endorse the "soaking method"...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Sorry to say I don't alter any cards, I have soaked some off paper and I have erased a few stray pencil marks but thats about it and you know what PSA and SGC graded them all. <br /><br />You portray to be a devoted collector but detest creases, off center, etc. How could you ever collect RARE cards? You collect comodities in the purest form, PSA 8's of 1950's and 1960's and even later, where the population extant is in the tens of thousands overall and each card has pops in the hundreds. Perhaps the board should see what you collect. My favorite is the Virgil Trucks master set. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/listothersets.chtml?rsetid=680" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/listothersets.chtml?rsetid=680</a><br /><br /><br /><br />I and many others on this board collect cards so rare you can't even imagine. With populations in the single digits or in many cases 1-2 known.<br /><br />As others have suggested go back to CU where you can covort with others of the same ilk.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Hi Blach,<br />Perhaps you are referring to Jim, but If I'm included then please have a quick look at my post way above.<br /><br />I think I articulated 3 reasoned viewpoints on why soaking might not jibe, and why the reasoning for it doesn't seem so terrific.<br /><br />And Its not soaking police, its the soaking policewoman - at least in my fantasies it is anyway...<br /><br /><br />regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Many of us that collect the "low to mid grade stuff" simply don't care if we wake up tomorrow morning and our cards are worth less than the paper that they are printed on...we just enjoy collecting as a relaxing hobby. <br /><br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />If you soak a pig will its value decrease?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Blach,<br /><br />I am offering my opinion.<br /><br />I think all types of alteration and restoration is wrong--in many cases it is deceptive.<br /><br />If you want to soak the cards soak on, if you want to trim cards, trim on, if you want to take out creases go ahead. I cannot stop you.<br /><br />You have a different opinion--I think you are altering the card.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...collecting with your PSA 8 and above friends. I'm done responding to your posts.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Scott, I love the Hot Dog comparison. Does anybody know what they put in hot dogs? (If not see the movie "The Great Outdoors" with John Candy)<br /><br />-Rhett (decidedly pro-soaking)
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John S,<br /><br />Obviously. I like to collect to.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>To say the low to mid-grade collector is becoming less important to the hobby, when you're on a message board full of low-to-mid-grade collectors is pretty unfair. It is also untrue. Low to mid grade cards sell with greater frequency every single day, and the pool of buyers is much, much greater in size than the pool of high-grade buyers. It is also the reason you're getting a hard time on this topic, Jim, because the likelihood that a PSA 8 T206 has been soaked off an album page is, in my opinion, pretty damn close to 100%.<br /><br />That being said, it is also very unfair to continuously attack Jim for collecting PSA 8s. Jim collects high grade cards. Get over it. He knows as much about what he collects as many of the others on this board know about what they collect, and he's just as passionate. It is SO lame to continuously read the response "Oh yeah? Well you collect high-grade cards, so you don't know what you're talking about." every time Jim says something you disagree with. <br /><br />It's funny how I never hear anyone getting on anyone for their collecting preferences on this board, EXCEPT those who collect high-grade cards (except Frank's inane ramblings against graded collectors, but I've learned to ignore that). Collect cards of catchers? Great. Collect Lefty O'Doul? Very cool. Collect 19th Century left-handed ballplayers? More power to you. Collect prewar rookie cards of left-handed catchers with glasses? Great. Collect high-grade cards? You are the infidel.<br /><br />Makes no ssense to me.<br /><br />Oh, on topic? Soaking is fine, IMO, so long as you're not soaking to press out a crease or a wrinkle. Someone asked where you draw the line? That's where I draw it. I soak to remove paper, gunk, and grime, and apply no pressure to the card except slight pressure during the process of drying a card. I've never seen a wrinkle come out as a result of the slight pressure.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Blach</b><p>Excuse me Mr. Crandall!<br /><br />"If you want to soak the cards soak on, if you want to trim cards, trim on, if you want to take out creases go ahead. I cannot stop you."<br /><br />Where in the hell in my post did I say anything about trimming cards or taking creases out of cards????<br /><br />This is a soaking thread and that is what I addressed.<br /><br />Blach (Stephen R. Murray)
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Y'all ought to just agree to disagree. Neither group is going to convince the other. Personally I don't see any problem with soaking a card in water to remove glue or paper, because I have not heard any compelling evidence that it changes the card in any way, and many knowledgeable and experienced people are saying it doesn't. But it doesn't bother me if others feel differently.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>What Al and Peter just said. <br /><br />Can we all go get a beer now?
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