Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Last year I bought a raw E96 Connie Mack autographed card on ebay. I sent it to every major authenticator and it came back no good. I didn't want a "fake" in my collection so I ended up selling it. An eventual owner sent it in to GAI and imagine how I felt to see it residing in a GAI Authentic holder on this months recent pickups on this board, after it got rejected once from them? Something like being kicked in stomach. Grading is not an exact science and we can't expect perfection from a subjective service. With that said, this experience makes me wonder who exactly is looking at my cards and what qualifies them to do that? Are they 20 year hobby professionals with a keen eye, or are they 20 year old co-eds who smack gum and took a crash course? Do they pour over each card, or give it a quick glance because they have deadlines or quotas to meet?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>when it comes to autographs, the only autograph you can be sure is real is the one that you get in person. Everything else is a crap shoot and way too easy to fake. I used to do a very good Ruth that could fool all the but the best experts. The biggest tip off to my fakes was that they were done in ballpoint pen which didn't come into common use until after his death. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I agree with Jay. I lump autographs in with game used equipment. Why bother?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>No--I am not saying that Derrick and Kevin are head and shoulders above Dave and Mike....just that the concept of a high-end grading service is a good one.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Why bother? Why bother collecting players like Hal Chase? It's a personal interest and I think doing both is fine. The point is shouldn't grading companies keep the histories of certain cards on file so when a card is submitted they can track it if it is re-subbed? Kind of like a Carfax for cards? Might be difficult on a common card, but not so much on a rarity or autograph. The process of "re-subbing until I get the grade I want" really compromises the system.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>So now we're talking about high end premium grading for some premium fee. Let's see, the rationale is those guys try harder and/or profess to know what they're doing. So if that's the case, why are the other guys (PSA, SGC, GAI) still around? I thought the rationale behind their existence was that they were qualifed to do what they do, so much so in fact that people are willing to plunk down zillions of dollars on cards given their blessing. Sort of reminds me of the razor market. After razor manufacturers determined there was no where to go with single-blade razors, they introduced the double-bladed ones. Now I think they're up to quatro-bladed razors. In fact, don't some of these quatro-bladed razors even have batteries stuck in there somewhere? I'm still trying to figure out what they do. And after all these "improvements", if you do the Joe Namath cheek test, like you can really tell the difference between a single-blade shave and a quatro-bladed battery-enhanced shave? So looking ahead a few years, after we have this premium grading service and after a few thousand threads bemoaning what they've been missing, I guess we'll then have the super-duper premium grading service, then the super super-duper premium grading service. Then, once we have all these, we'll have to figure out how to value the cards. I propose that we add a star for each premium level of grading. We'll then have the standard, say, NrMt 7, then the premium 7*, the super-duper premium 7** and the super super-duper 7***. Next we'll have to figure out what equates to what. Is a 6** equal to a plain 7? Boy will it be a lot of fun to take a look at the price guides of the future under this scenario. They will weigh around 25 pounds, and the qualifications to publish one of those things will be a double doctorate in mathematics and statistics with perhaps a masters in price theory thown in for good measure.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>There is a premium service for almost every major commercial product I can think of--no reason one will not emerge over time for grading sports cards.<br /><br />I like the new razors better--I also pay more for attorneys, for doctors and for that matter almost any professional service--why?--because I think the people I use are better. <br /><br />Enough people will think its important at some point in the future to have their expensive cards graded by someone that is the absolute best--that knows more about alteration techniques than the card doctors themselves and that truly studies each card that it grades. The $50 fee per card will be insignificant to the greater market value a card like this will command.<br /><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>There is nothing preventing a business of a high end authentication. For it to be successful they would have to gain collectors trust implicitly. The new flip could have the old companies serial number and previous grade in addition to it's own.<br /><br />Unfortunately I don't know how much demand there would be. Once most dealers get a company to slap that 8/88 on the card it is then sold.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Are you saying that the seas surrounding Grader World, are not smooth as glass???<br /><br />Are you saying that the graded letter "A" ... has a little more meaning to it then what's been said???<br /><br />Say it ain't so Joe.<br /><br />The next thing someone is bound to say is:<br /><br />"This thing may be part of a possible Meltdown?" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I see Corey's point, that even for a $10 fee the graders still have an obligation to get it right. But if a new grading service was formed headed by people who were respected above and beyond everyone else, and the perception was they were more skilled than everyone else, and as a result they charged more money for their services, I think they would find their niche and build a significant market share.<br /><br />You probably wouldn't be sending them your T206 Miller Huggins with rounded corners, but high end cards costing thousands of dollars would be their bailiwick.<br /><br />Admittedly this would be a service geared for the wealthier collectors, but as Jim pointed out there is a premium service around for just about anything else so why not baseball cards? I'll go out on a limb and say this is where we are headed in the not too distant future.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"smoke detectors without batteries"

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Sgard, the old company's cert number would never be allowed on the new company's flip unless there was some sort of joint venture between them or payment arranged. Hard to believe PSA would ever permit such a thing which would imply that it's own crack Samsonite gorilla grading team is suspect.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It all goes back to who you trust grading your cards. Corey and I have spoken about a service offering "authentic" without a grade and with it not being altered and no stigma attached to the "A"..That would be great..All I really want to know is that my card is not altered. Period. I can tell how pretty it is myself....Every one else can have their super duper grading service tell them their card is a "10-gold-flying-cross-star-best-in-the-world-and-only-worthy-of-the-finest-collection" grade ......from the 10 Gold Star grading company.....I will settle for collecting cards with my friends...

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- I've been saying the same thing too, that many collectors just want to know they have an original card that hasn't been tampered with, and to heck with the grade. You and I and all the other experienced collectors can grade them ourselves.<br /><br />But the hobby is bigger than just the armpit guys and if someone wants to collect high grade cards more power to him; and he has every right to the same guarantee that his cards are original, too.<br /><br />I left out a point: and of course if a high grade is important to some collectors they are entitled to a fair and accurate assessment. I know those collectors get a lot of flak on the board but they aren't doing anything wrong by wanting the finest set. That's just another way to collect.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>There is no industry standard therefore there are inconsistencies. What are the guarantees? Do these guarantees really mean that the everyday collector is protected by the grading service? The fiasco regarding a certain "rare" T206, a certain grading company, a certain "big" dealer and a certain "big" collector didn't really inspire much. If you think about it the grading company wouldn't have done much if it were Joe Blow dealer or collector. <br /><br />There is the story of another collector (board member) that had to take another grading company to court because the grading company really didn't want to bother with the issue and thought it would go away. Well it didn't and the grading company ended up losing in court - the point being that the grading service(s) can tell the little collector to pound sand and most people will because they lack the resources to fight. <br /><br />It's not like the companies can start over. It's not like they can start offering a service and render all past grades as possible errors. That would put the collecting community in a frenzy because all of a sudden all the cards encapsulated before a certain date would be suspect. I suppose someone could come up with some plan to have the grading companies "redo" all the grades at a nominal fee but that would involve removing many (thousands? tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) cards from their holders and potentially damaging them.<br /><br />Is the grading system broken? Look at it this way, it was never really right to begin with so its hard to break what was already broken. Look at the very first card graded by PSA... need we look further? <br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>It seems to me that the best suggestion so far is to create sort of independent review board that runs seminars on new techniques in tampering and how to identify them and certifies graders from all major grading companies. Maybe once a year they would have to take a weekend class and test to get re-certified as an industry grader for the next year. Then PSA or SGC or whoever can advertise that they have 100% certified graders. Perhaps their test scores could even be graded so that they could claim 90% "A" grader and 10% "B" graders or something like that. <br /><br /> I don't think some premium service will ever fly for a number of reasons. <br />1) They are supposed to be authenticating already. If they aren't already doing it, then what are they saying about their own services right now.<br />2) Many set collectors (Registry or otherwise) like all their cards in matching holders.<br />3) Grading companies would not go for it and there probably would not be enough high-end business to make it sustainable. How many owners of PSA 8 '52 Mantles are going to crack them out to get recertified by the high-end company. Most people with high-end cards who are happy with their current status of evaluation will leave them that way.<br />JImB

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Does anybody know what training procedure a newly hired grader goes through? I don't think you just show up your first day and start grading cards. There is some learning curve and training, but I wonder how thorough it is.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>The funny thing is, this topic is brought up every few months. The fact is, you get this premium service for a cheap price from SGC. If they F-Up, they will "guarantee" their mistake. This whole concept of paying a premium or having a third part review is for PSA only, as you basically have to take them to court for them to correct their mistakes. <br /><br />The general thought that Jim Crandell is concerned that some of his cards are bunk and that PSA would not refund the money on those is one of the most telling problems of PSA. The marketing and branding power of PSA is absolutely facinating. Someone as wealthy and influential as Jim is powerless with PSA. He accepts the fact that his cards are not guaranteed. Truly amazing. Shame on Jim and any other person that put themselves in this position. You have only yourself to blame. <br /><br />You have a guarantee with SGC, you do not with PSA. For the price you would pay for "third party authentification" you could just cross your cards over and sleep easy. <br /><br />The grading system is not broken, it is only broken for PSA users that get F-ed in the face when they want correction of a problem. <br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I don't appreciate you trying to put yourself inside my head and tell me what motivates me.<br /><br />I am driven by a desire to help the hobby.<br /><br />The value of my cards continues to go up and up--collectors in general seem oblivious to the issues being talked about here.<br /><br />Whether a particular card may or may not have been altered is not an issue that seems to impact the resale value of a psa-graaded card. As long as it is in the holder it commands a certain value.<br /><br />Jim

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Sacuier</b><p>It could really be as simple as adding a small doctor resistant sticker on the slab.. a kind of "seal of approval." <br /><br />Not sure how it could be made so that it's not transferable but I imagine it could be hologram type image that breaks apart when removed.<br /><br />Then again it would still be just an opinion based on a gathering of objective findings. I guess one could claim it's like a Hebrew National Hotdog - "It's from a higher source" (LOL).<br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>You guys are missing the obvious -- this has been done before and didn't work.<br /><br />Beckett created two tiers of service, BCCG and BGS. A disaster as far as any serious collector was concerned. The lower cost BCCG service (which had a different grading scale) only served to tarnish the Beckett brand. And the confusion was only increased by the BVG vintage service. <br /><br />No way PSA, SGC or GAI make the same mistake. They will never diminish their existing brands by introducing a premium service.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>I call it: <br /><br />FANTASIA, or Fantasy World's rebellion.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be funny, if the hobbiest/Investors reverted back to 360 degrees where the collectors knew how to grade their own cards, therefore they knew more about the visual, feel and touch of each set.<br />Their ratio of grading error's were no more, or less than the ratio of the current third party plastic world.<br />As a matter of fact, the old timers had the edge, they were able to recognize the different sets ... something that has been a challenge in third party plastic land.<br /><br />Wouldn't it be funny, if the current breed decided to learn how to grade for themselves.<br /><br />It would be funny, but I would lay my last peso that they wouldn't.<br /><br />Brain Pickers need a third party to tell them how to buy and sell.<br />They are not diggers.<br />They feed off the diggers.<br />And why not?<br /><br />To them ... it's a cardboard STOCK. ... I Luv this thread.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>I agree with JimB. "I sense a 200+ post thread coming on."<br /><br />The concept of third party grading was touted by many as "the answer" to the problem of altered and counterfeit cards. I'm not sure how a fourth party opinion of the third party opinion is "the real answer." Would we need a fifth party to mediate the disputes between the third and fourth parties?<br /><br />In a simpler time, remembered by old farts, buying a card at a show went something like this:<br /><br />Buyer: How much are you asking for the T206 Joe Schlabotnik rookie card?<br />Seller: $500.<br />B: Hmm. Would you take $450?<br />S: Hmm. No, but I’ll go $475.<br />B: Done. Thanks. Did you watch the Mets game last night?<br /><br />No mention of condition. Just price.<br /><br />Now it’s likely to be:<br /><br />B: Can I see the BFD 8 T206 Joe Schlabotnik rookie card in your case?<br />S: Sure.<br />B: Hmm. It looks like a weak 8 to me. Should have been a 7. Look at the centering.<br /><br />S: Are you kidding me? It should have been a 9. Look at those corners.<br /><br />B: Look at the uneven bottom edge. Could be trimmed. If this thing weren’t entombed I could smell the bleach!<br /><br />S: Do you want the card or not?<br /><br />B: It books for $20k in a 7 and $40k in an 8 and you’re asking $45k.<br /><br />S: Let’s take it over to the “Sid’s Fourth Party Grading” booth.<br /><br />(Sid was out to lunch but his assistant Bambi produced a notarized case history of the card, at a cost of $500, plus membership fee of $2500, which took 9 minutes, including carbon-14 testing.)<br /><br />Results:<br />Submitted to ABC Graders 11 times.<br />Received nine grades of “7,” 1 grade of “8” and was rejected once as trimmed<br /><br />Submitted to BFD Graders 13 times.<br />Received grades 10 grades of “8,” one of “7” and was rejected twice as recolored.<br /><br />Final result from “Sid’s Fourth Party Grading” =<br /><br />Grade of 97.3768576879<br />“Pretty gosh darn close to being nearly gem mint-mint.”<br />“From the Allen Haggler Collection”<br />Book Price (as per “Sid’s Fourth Party Grading” Guide) $65k.<br /><br /><br />Size of holder – 12” x 16”<br />Size of label – 7” x 9”<br />(Schlabotnik misspelled as Schlobotnic, misidentified as “1918 T205” and referred to as “throwing” instead of “portrait.”)<br /><br />Reholder fee to correct errors - $95<br /><br />(Card damaged while opening slab during reholdering process, now in g-vg condition.)<br /><br />While waiting for the grading results, buyer and seller bought some nachos with cheese at the food court. They were later taken by ambulance to the emergency room suffering from food poisoning.<br />Mr. Not–So-Mint makes one time offer of $175 for the card as dealer’s stomach is pumped. Buyer sues card show promoters for $67,000,000 for damage to pants from vomiting up rancid nacho cheese. Case is awaiting trial.<br /><br />(Card later shows up on ebay in PRO holder, graded as a "9," hyped as found in grandfather's sock drawer. Card, with BIN of $170,000.00, does not sell. Ungraded obvious reprint of same card sells on same day for $2343.56. Winning bidder's ebay handle is "mrnotsomint."<br /><br />All names changed to protect to guilty.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Baseball card collecting is my hobby and has been since 1960. One of the reasons I enjoy collecting is that it can often divert my mind from some of life's inevitable stresses. If I were to look at my collection as a portfolio susceptible to a potential multi-hundred thousand-dollar hit because of a shift in public perception about a grading company, I would need to find another hobby to relieve the stress caused by my first hobby.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- your one act play <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> shows why many of the oldtimers have left the hobby. I think it has become very stressful for many people to navigate through all of today's muck and mire.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wouldn't it be funny if guys like Joe Pelaez was given 10 cards in front of him and asked to pick out the 5 that had been microtrimmed/reworked and the five that were legit got more wrong than right--NOW THAT WOULD BE REALLY FUNNY.<br /><br />The funniest thing I think is the people who do not believe in grading think they have more expertise in picking out altered cards. NOW THAT IS FUNNY TOO!!

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bruce,<br /><br />People collect for different reasons and to each his own. A lot of collectors love the competition of the PSA set registry and it has been responsible for a huge surge in interest in collecting. Doesn't mean your way or my way is better--just that people get their fun from the hobby in different ways.<br /><br />Jim

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p> "I feel that if all these problems continue unchecked, the whole system may eventually collapse". - B. Sloate, 2007<br /><br />Barry: certainly the "system" which you refer to is not the collection of baseball cards. And Barry, I submit for your consideration that the collection of baseball cards is the only system of consequence. So, allow the other systems to persist or collapse as their merits dictate. In the interim, take advantage of their characteristics, as so many are.<br /><br />Lots of guys are buying raw, getting graded and with the profit upon a sale, building their collections. Others are buying graded, cracking out, cleaning up, resubmitting and with the resultant profit on a sale, building their collections. The bigger group, however, are seeking out cards which have a defect which is noteworthy to a grading company, but less so to a collector; and taking advantage of the cost impact which the holdered number has on their collectible. These collectors really dismiss the holder valuation and recognize the quality attributes which they value highest in a card.<br /><br />The first two examples are individuals who prey on those who are impressed by the opinion of another. The larger, third example group are those with sufficient sophistication to determine their own criteria for card evaluation.<br /><br />Third party grading is not what registry collectors need it to be. It is fallible. That is ok, so long as everyone recognizes that fact. But they don't, and prices are predicated right now on the numbers which these companies are generating. But the only thing which I could see collapsing is the faith which one puts into the opinion of a third party entity.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If the system is fallible, and those who collect registry sets are not getting what they pay for, keep in mind there are many collectors who might pay $1000 for a PSA 7, $5000 for a PSA 8, and $40,000 for the same card in PSA 9. Given the progression of price increases, there is tremendous pressure on the grading services to get it absolutely right. At that price point, if it's not done to near perfection, then the whole system is ludicrous.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Other hobbies like photography, computers, gardening, sports, etc,... don't have all the cost/finacial/money issues because the focus is more on techniques/skill/fun rather than money, competition, auctions & posessions.<br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"The funniest thing I think is the people who do not believe in grading think they have more expertise in picking out altered cards."<br /><br />Wrong. For the issues I collect, I do have more expertise than the graders, even the good ones. Far more. You know who the guys at SGC call when they are stumped on something with boxing and exhibit cards? Me. You know who purchased my book? PSA, Mastro, SGC and so on. For other issues, other guys here are similarly skilled. <br /><br />"The funniest thing" is that you literally have no idea who is handling your cards yet you advocate for them on blind faith. If you think it is some wizened expert with decades of experience spending hours poring over your cards one by one, you are sadly mistaken. From the moment the unsupervised minimum wage worker in Newport Beach shucks the cards out of their packages to the minute another minimum wage worker wraps and boxes the encapsulated cards to ship back to the dealers who sell to you, nearly everyone involved has no real expertise. The graders (who actually spend about 30 seconds giving your card the once-over) are neophytes compared to most of us. <br /><br />"The funniest thing" is that I'm not the one worried that my cards are really what they are supposed to be, my friend. That would be your bailiwick. <br /><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>It's all about money. If a new grading service started that did a better job than the existing companies, would you be willing to pay more for it? Would you pay 50% more?<br /><br />Peter

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Too vague Peter.<br /><br />If the grading companies provide a pixel map documenting that no crease ripples exist resultant from one being pressed out, and indicate on the map areas affected by other problems, then a product is being produced that is a pedigree. As such, it warrants an increased price. But 50% would be no way near enough.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>anyone remember the company that provided a CD-ROM with 100x pics of the corners of the card and other details of the grading? Even at 100x, NM corner looked horrible <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> They were definitely ahead of their time.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>BoxingCardMan,<br /><br />I am truly in awe of you--You gotta love it when people get on here and brag about themselves--and their "so-called" expertise and the great expertise that all these other non-graded cartd buyers have-ha ha.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Jim C- it's not bragging when you can back it up. You probably know the most about PSA plastic so I would call you if I ever wanted to know how to look at PSA slabs...not cards...but slabs...For some reason I don't think I can ever remember you talking about the cards.....or the players or the camaraderie in the hobby. You do put your names by your posts, and slabbing is a relevent topic so I would never say not to give your opinion...and I am truly not trying to be mean here I am just stating a few thoughts.....Also this is even a personal invite to our Dinner....Please come to it if you can make it...but please rsvp too...<br /><br /><br />Jay B- I do remember that grading company....I think I even had one of their cd's. They were too far ahead of their time...imo...<br /><br />And one other thing....I too have been called by 2 of the 3 major grading companies on very esoteric cards to get my thoughts....and more than once....but who cares?...The guys in NJ do a great job...I respect their opinions very much but also have a good idea of stuff myself......It never hurts to ask someone that specializes in something what their opinion is....regards

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When they call Leon or Adam, and SGC has called me too, they are asking for relevant information about a rare set. They are not calling to ask how a card should be graded.<br /><br />That is an important distinction.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Not quite. The last time I spoke to one of them it was about how an edge of a certain series should look....That particular series is different than most in that it was connected to one or more cards as *distributed....regards<br /><br /><br />*deleted the word "manufactured" and changed to "distributed" to be more correct....

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's interesting. They've called me for historical information, but never for grading. That's kind of funny. It's like ordering a steak in a restaurant and the chef comes out and asks you "how do you cook steak?"

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>That was one funny schtick. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The problem that you now have.<br /><br />Is that you now have to join the Standup Comics Union. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joe<br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>jeff</b><p>Jeff- please say what you want to but put your full name by it (moderator dude)

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>In the interest of increasing the post count . . .<br /><br />Gilbert, I like the idea of the pixel count maps to provide a pedigree but, as you say, a huge price increase would be needed to incorporate this service. It does create an opportunity for an entrepreneur in the field of pixel map storage. (Smiley icon here).<br /><br />Jim, I could not agree more with your 3:03 p.m. post.<br /><br />Kevin’s recent posts have been very helpful and eye opening. The higher prices go the scarier this kind of alteration becomes.<br /><br />I’ve been burned a few times with trimmed, colored and even fake cards . . . but then again, I’ve seen a lot of my cards increase in value so I'm ahead of the game overall.<br /><br />The fact is that grading will always be very subjective, to say nothing of the fraud factor. When someone posts a raw card here and asks what we think it will grade, and five of us say PSA 5 and five of us say PSA 4, what does that mean? Is it a consensus 4.5? The market only validates a professional third party opinion, which might have been different last month, or may be different tomorrow, depending on the grading company and the faceless grader. He may be on his first day of work or he may be looking at the 112th card of his 1546th day. We expect him to be able to distinguish a “9” from a “10” or a “98” from a “96.” That’s a lot of expectation and pressure to live up to.<br /><br />Five of the ten PSA grades have “mint” in the title. They are all great looking cards and I wouldn’t mind having some. However, I’m not willing to pay the premium prices associated with them so, I don’t own many. I just don’t have the kind of $$$ to play in that game.<br /><br />I won this card in one of Barry’s auctions. It is SGC graded “A.” They thought it was trimmed. Barry didn’t. I don’t either. Can anyone say ever say with certainty that it was cut this way at the factory or later? I can live with the uncertainty. I’m happy to have the card and I’m happy with what I paid for it.<br /><br /><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/19th%20Sepia/N403Whitneysmall.JPG">

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>JimCrandell:<br /><br />"Wouldn't it be funny if guys like Joe Pelaez was given 10 cards in front of him and asked to pick out the 5 that had been microtrimmed/reworked and the five that were legit got more wrong than right--NOW THAT WOULD BE REALLY FUNNY.<br /><br />The funniest thing I think is the people who do not believe in grading think they have more expertise in picking out altered cards. NOW THAT IS FUNNY TOO!!"<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Sonny, <br />When you were a toddler in 1990, and contemplating which Topps card you would slab.<br /><br />Joe Pelaez was confronted by a problem that dealt with a very high end vintage card. ... we're not talking Topps or Fleer's here.<br />We're talking high "K's" in 1990, wich is saying some, toddlers like yourself during that time wouldn't have a clue.<br />Joe Pelaez took the problem by the horns, and attacked it.<br />His money ... his time ... his attack.<br />Joe Pelaez succeeded to convince Danny Dupchek that it would be wise that everyone should be able to go back to their playgrounds happy.<br />Danny boy eventually saw the wisdom of that move.<br /><br />Jimmy boy, let me break this to you gently, because you're not very fast, and rather naive.<br /><br />When you lay out some heavy G's on a card that you find out to be non Kosher, you can bet your dumb ass that you want to learn everything about that card, so that it won't happen again.<br />One of the rules from Spanish Harlem.<br /><br />Fool me once, SHAME ON YOU.<br /><br />Fool me twice, SHAME ON ME.<br /><br />Sonny, I GOT MY MONEY BACK, and I TRIED to ALERT the Hobby.<br /><br />Now let's talk about Little Jimmy Crandall.<br /><br />You have done less than sh!t for your predominantly slabbed TOPPS, and even less for the investors.<br /><br />You are part of the broken problem.<br /><br /><br /> <br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce, I don't even remember that card, but looking at the picture, it looks like a factory miscut.<br /><br />The subjectivity of grading is acceptable if the price differential between grades is rather modest. But if a card is midway between an 8 and a 9- say a sharp 8 but not quite Mint- is it a $1000 card or a $5000 card? Is its value totally dependent upon which way the grader is leaning at that particular moment? Maybe it's an 8 on a Monday but a 9 on a Tuesday. The price discrepancy within a system that is so subjective never has and never will make sense to me.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>Very interesting thread. It makes me appreciate my $25 T206 and T205 commons. I don't have to worry about all of this crap.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Party on!<br /><br />Rick

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Little Joey Boy,<br /><br />Sorry-you make no sense. Somehow I think your hatred for graded cards is based on the fact that you have been right in the middle of the explosion in graded card values and missed it completely--sorry little Joey boy.<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />Yes it is--bragging is bragging--and bs is bs.<br /><br />You have made your thoughts known in the past about my posts--sorry, on Net54 this is what I post about--on PSA its completely different and on the other vintage board its something else. In my view Net 54 is a board for serious collectors talking about serious issues and there is no more serious issue than card alteration. As far as camaraderie is concerned, see previous sentence. <br /><br />Thank you for the invite to your dinner but I will pass.<br /><br />Jim

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"I am truly in awe of you--You gotta love it when people get on here and brag about themselves--and their "so-called" expertise and the great expertise that all these other non-graded cartd buyers have-ha ha."<br /><br />Last time I checked, this board had just about the foremost authorities in the hobby on many issues posting on it regularly. Nevermind that I've forgotten more about exhibit cards and boxing cards than you've ever learned about what you collect from what I can tell (since you never share squat in terms of expertise), I'd say Mark Macrae is the top PCL expert in the country, Scott Brockelman is the top E107 guy, Pete Calderon knows more in general about caramel issues than just about anyone else, Robert Silverman is tops on postcards, Bill Cornell on T207s, Bill Heitmann on T206, Kevin Saucier on card alterations, etc., etc., etc. (anyone I missed, excuse me I am just shooting off the top of my head here). Yet you diss all these folks and others including me because of your own insecurities, issues or whatever neuroses you are working through here. <br /><br />What have you contributed to the hobby, Jim? Have you revised checklists for the standard catalog? Authored any studies? Done any research to expand our knowledge? Have you done anything except piss and moan every chance you get about how your plastic investment may not be all that after all? <br /><br />When you've developed the skills to trust your own eyes, the willingness to share any expertise you may have, and the social skills to participate constructively in an adult dialogue, then we'll talk. Until then, I respectfully suggest you listen more and spout off less. After all, no one can confirm your ignorance until you prove it with your posts. <br /><br />

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Jim C.,<br /><br />I'm fairly new to the board (became aware of it about a year ago, lurked for about six months, post once in a while), so I'm not aware of what took place before then or previous history between various board members. But I have a serious question that is asked with no preconceived notion or alterior motive:<br /><br />I think that in the past year I've noticed your participation on the board comes in spurts of a week or two, then you seem to disappear. Each time you post it is on the subject of altered cards -- and to a lesser extent, grading services -- and how you seem to be making a call to arms to fight what is a serious threat to our hobby.<br /><br />Yet it seems that whatever thread you post to soon digresses into name calling and condescending attitudes being thrown about. And it always seems to be between you and two or three different parties each time.<br /><br />Why is that?

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dear Mr. Boxing Egomaniac,<br /><br />If you could put your massive ego aside for a minute and see the facts, I was commenting on the ability of longtime ungraded card hobbyists ability to spot altered cards.<br /><br />The best of the card doctors skills has evolved to the point where only those extremely familiar in alterations and what is being done can detect them. Ungraded card hobbyists in general do not meet this criteria.<br /><br />You sound like a very bitter guy--collect graded cards--join the future of the hobby--you may find it will help your sense of well being.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rob,<br /><br />There are people on Net 54 that are vehemently anti-grading and I stand up to them. <br /><br />In my mind, card alteration, the ability of the grading companies to detect it and the willingness of national dealers/auction houses to either play a part in this scandal or look the other way is the issue in the hobby today--it is black and white.<br /><br />There will be a couple more attacks and either I will just stop responding or Leon will stop it.....<br /><br />Its only words.

Is the Grading System Broken?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[[To correct two misstatements by T206(among many),<br />1)"as Jim previously admitted, even he can point out which are problem T206 cards"<br />What????? I don't know that I have any problem cards--as far as I am concerned they may all be fine. I certainly never said this.<br />2)"Jim has chimed in that this ruins his enjoyment of at least T206 cards and he will not collect them until someone provides him with more assurances in this regard"<br />For your information, I am not adding to my 128(another mistake) cards at this time because I am a set collector in 8 or better and I do not have the funds to complete the set and do all the rest I am trying to do.<br />Stop misquoting me or lieing about what I said or what I think. I say enough on Net54 or I have said enough that if you want to try to ridicule me you can pick from what I have said not make things up!!!!!]]<br /><br />T206Collector Response:<br /><br />(1) Jim Crandell said on January 9, 20007:<br /><br /><font color="blue"><br />"And why would I want to break out cards that individually are worth<br />$2,000-$6,000 out of their holders? While I am sure some would not<br />regrade I am not about arbitrarily destroying the value of my<br />collection."</font><br /><br />From this I concluded that you were "sure some would not regrade" because it was readily apparent to you that you could point out which were the problem cards. Otherwise, why would you be "sure some would not regrade"?<br /><br /><br />(2) Jim Crandell said on July 5, 2007 at 4:02PM in this thread: <br /><br /><font color="blue"><br />"I have stopped buying cards from sets that are most susceptible to alteration(T206, Goudey and Play Ball)."</font><br /><br />From this I concluded that one of the reasons you have stopped buying T206 cards is that they are most susceptible to alteration. That is, you do not enjoy them as much because of concerns that they may be altered. <br /><br />I did not misquote you, or, of course, lie. My comments were based on your previous comments and were not some great leap in logic. <br /><br />