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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>for coming on these boards to discuss ideas and changes with all of us. I for one really like the descriptive writings and appreciate a more detailed listing of conditions for the cards up for auction. I have bought many items from you over the past 4 years and think that your guys have done an excellent job. <br />Thanks again for coming on Network54.<br /><br />Shane Leonard
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Kevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Kevin, Doug had the guts to admit that Mastro alters cards -- that took guts? Wouldn't it be braver to simply promise to stop doing it?"<br /><br />Not when the definition of permissible alteration is not uniform. It is better when there is no universally accepted standard of all alterations to disclose what alterations were done and let the prospective buyers decide if they care than an SGC 60 was once glued in a scrapbook.<br /><br />And Doug most certainly deserves credit for discussing these issues in a public forum, especially when these issues have passionate advocates from numerous and various conflicting perspectives.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Maybe this is the wrong hobby for you? It's sort of like saying....ok, do you promise never to go 56mph in a 55mph zone again? And yes, to me, it's that amount of an issue with stuff that can't be seen or detected...and I am not talking about removing major creases...I am talking about insignificant crap on a card being taken off so it looks better...Again, I suggest you find a different hobby if you thing it's ever going to be fully disclosed...........Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected ><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....best regards
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Paul, I agree, the very problem arises from the lack of consensus as to definition. But I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not. EDITED TO ADD It seems to me if that is the case, then pressing out a wrinkle, trying to get PSA to grade it, and not disclosing it, could be considered deceptive.
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>Do you think it's proper for an auction company to work on or perform an alteration on a card, then not disclose it to potential bidders?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I would like to hear an explanation of why Mastro Auctions considers it acceptable to press out a wrinkle/crease and PSA does not."<br /><br />I think that is a fair question, but I would like to know more about the specific processes that are used to press wrinkles. Spooning a card is one thing (in my own opinion, bad and easily detectable), but soaking gunk off the back of a card and then pressing it in the middle of a dictionary to keep it from warping during the drying process is another. The latter can sometimes moderately improve the appearance of wrinkles -- and would be undetectable and not enforceable by PSA, notwithstanding their general statements against it. Again, I think questions should be asked with specific examples in mind. <br /><br />But, to me, if you buy an SGC graded card in a Mastro auction, what Mastro did to the card before SGC got its hands on it is not particularly relevant to me; though Doug's money-backed guarantee is another arrow in the quiver (along with SGC's guarantee) of potential future restitution.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>It does take some serious stones to come on these boards to discuss your business practices, especially knowing that you are going to get *******s, lawyers, judges, deadbeats and bottom feeders grilling you. Doug has come out and said what Mastro believes and does. If you got a problem, don't bid in their auctions. <br />Pressing down a wrinkle is something that is going to be done for centuries to come. You can't stop it and you can't detect it. <br />Actually, you can detect it if you do it wrong and mash the card with too much pressure.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes. I have seen Cracker Jacks warp significantly inside their slabs -- obviously even though they may have "dried" flat they did not retain their shape. I have seen corner flips that either reappeared or were missed the first time -- the latter I consider unlikely. I have also seen wrinkles on cards graded 7 or higher although who can say if they reappeared or just were missed during the grading process -- including a PSA 7 T205 Matty that had prominent wrinkles if you held it at the right angle.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If it were only pressing down a corner.<br /><br />What about that Keeler cabinet?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I continue to doubt the permanence of these supposedly undetectable changes."<br /><br />I, of course, mean undetectable at the time of grading. As for future detectability, that's the beauty of SGC's (and now Mastro's) money backed guarantee. If you show them an SGC 60 with a wrinkle that should've been a 40, they will comp you the difference. So, you are protected against that initially undetectable wrinkle. <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have stated my answer several times. I DON'T have a problem with first level restorations...ie, gunk removal, pencil removal, very slight surface wrinkle removal etc. I don't care if they do it and I don't care if they tell me... Does that answer your question? (I am sure you disagree but I tried to be specific and answer honestly)<br />thanks<br />leon
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Paul, that's beautiful (coming from Mastro), we guarantee the permanence of our "improvements."
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I would like to hear Joe Orlando or Dave Forman or Mike Baker state that they have no problem with a submitter taking out a wrinkle as long as they do it so it leaves no detectable trace. Somehow I don't think they will take that position."<br /><br />You are missing the point and confusing the issue. The point is not what the MORAL standard SHOULD be. The point is what the enforceable, gradeable standard CAN CONSISTENTLY be. They can say whatever they want to say about moral standards, but those are quite irrelevant.<br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I personally think it was a mistake to do the things that were done to the Keeler card and not disclose it. Mistakes happen...I think that was one of the things that started this whole debate. For those that haven't made a mistake please step forward (as everyone except the guy on the end takes one step back <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)<br />regards
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I am glad morals are irrelevant. That is refreshing. I don't mean to be flip, I know what you are saying Paul and we have had that discussion before. But it is disturbing to hear it stated so bluntly.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Doug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?"<br /><br />That's pretty much what all of this boils down to right now, and I'd love to know the answer too. I don't care about a money back policy, etc. I, and others, want a clear and concise answer to this question.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I understand that you are ok with "1st tier" alterations. My question asks if you are ok with auction houses not disclosing to their potential bidders that such alterations (or worse) have been performed on the item being offered for sale.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You asked 2 questions and I have 2 different answers. Had you not put in (worse) then I would have had one answer...but putting that in I have another. Let me try this.<br /><br />I don't care if anyone tells me they have done an undectable, 1st tier, alteration to a card I am buying. If they do worse then yes, I do want to know.<br /><br />Jay B- When did Doug ever say they spoon out cards? Also, when was the last time you started a good, positive, thread on this board. If you truly want to make it better then why don't you contribute positive stuff and new, good threads? I am not trying to be mean or anything and think you act very civil....just a couple questions. Also, thanks for the help on the hijacking stuff...I tend to lean your way on my feelings but don't think it's a major problem...actually I think it's very minor but to each their own....<br />regards<br />leon
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Morals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman. They get in the way and keep me from doing those despicable things you need to do in order to succeed. So I'm content to live the life I do, knowing that I try to live an ethical life, in all aspects of my life, not just when it's convenient or won't get in the way of making me more money.<br /><br />The world would be a much better place if everyone lived this way, but sadly, money makes people do stupid things.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jay and Jeff have hit the nail right on the head. Doug comes on the board and postures and refuses to answer the legitimate questions.<br /><br />He obviously knows what PSA standards are as he has submitted more cards to them than any other grading service yet he admits to taking creases out of cards to presumably sneak them by PSA, thus violating their standards with out disclosing publicly what he or his employees have done to the cards.<br /><br />Given what Rob Lifson has said and Doug's outright refusal to discuss what he has already admitted to, I am surprised that more collectors aren't up in arms about this. <br /><br />I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>You call it blunt, I call it keeping it simple. For me, the issue is always one of "How am I personally harmed by purchasing one of these cards?" The answer will always be that the value will go down if the alteration is detected. Thus, I want to know that I will get the difference in the price I paid and the ultimate value back from either Mastro (who sold it) or SGC (who graded it). Since they both will give me my value back, there is no harm to me economically or otherwise. <br /><br />Morality is not irrelevant. When it comes to identifying a universal standard of card grading, we should stick to identifying provable facts before we even begin to contemplate how everyone should feel about those facts. But, to be sure, morality is already at play in card grading. Indeed, the universal distaste for recoloring cards or adding paper to cards is based in moralilty. And though I could write a thesis about "Morality in Card Grading," I'd rather just make sure that I bought what I thought I bought -- and if not then I can have a do-over. <br /> <br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I have heard from several collectors who refuse to bid in Memory Lane's auctions for example but I have only heard of a few who have expressed reservations about bidding in Mastronet auctions."<br /><br />Mastro's got better cards... (-:<br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Morals and ethics are what keep me from being a truly successful businessman."<br /><br />Do you really believe that you cannot be morally and ethically sound AND be a good businessman who makes lots of money?
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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>When did "surface wrinkle removal" become a first tier alteration / restoration?<br /><br />I always thought that pressing out a wrinkle is more of a severe alteration than, say, pencil erasing.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise.<br /><br />I understand it is harder for pre-war collectors to boycott Mastro's autions than Memory Lane as they have much more prewar merchandise. Also many on this board consign to Mastro so they are truly torn--not wanting to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Taking out a crease is a significant alteration--don't let the anyone make you think otherwise."<br /><br />No one is "making" him think otherwise. Leon is expressing his opinion, as you are expressing yours. The fact that there are so many opinions on these issues is what makes them so provocative. <br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Paul nailed it -- Mastro has better cards: that's why anyone deals with them.<br /><br />And while Jay can be a curmudgeon I honestly don't think he's been overly harsh on Doug. And I know it's self-serving but I haven't either. I spend a lot of cash with Mastro -- am I not entitled to a single freaking answer to a single freaking question? Or am I just some schmuck who is here to be fleeced? What other business other than the auction business would a consumer be ignored and BSed as much?
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I've had 4 different businesses. One just never took off, the other 3 could have done really well but I lacked, or I should say, had to strong of ethics, to do the things necessary in order to take the business to the next level. Unlike many people, I lack to ability to stab my mother in back to make a buck.<br /><br />Yes, there are people that have been a success holding to strong morals and ethics, but they are the absolute exception and I doubt anyone would say that they should be used as a business model if you want to be successful in today's business climate.<br /><br />Finding a businessman who's morals and ethics are the same in his personal life and business is like trying to find a politician that isn't in someone's pocket.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, Doug even said, we are not Mastro's target audience and are not the major spenders in Mastro's auctions. That should tell you everything right there. He will give us lip service, but he will do what he needs to do to keep increasing revenue of those he feel are the truly big spenders, while hoping not to offend enough of us that lost business from people he might alienate here is less than increased revenues from what he considers his main source.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>You are a schmuck here to be fleeced. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If Dan can please find Pink Floyd's "Sheep" in video form and post it here I would be appreciative.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>'<br />Jay writes:<br />"Doug, what you feel are attacks on you are legitimate questions. You continue to use double-speak and avoid giving clear and concise answers. When you sift thru everything, the main question that pretty much everyone wants to know is, "Since you consider spooning and other things to be OK, will this be noted in your auction descriptions, or, since you do not feel these are alterations, will this type of work be omitted from the description?" <br /><br />He has spoken this loud and clear Jay. He will continue with pressing out wrinkles and he will run his auction his way and not yours. He feels that any alteration or pressing of cards is Mastro's business. Does this mean that you will not bid since he will not change his business practice to satisfy you or anyone else? It is pretty obvious that his stance is not going to change. How about yours? <br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Ethics and morals are really driven by context and a person's individual background and experience. I don't know what you did (or didn't do) in your business situations, but I would bet that if you laid out for the Board the 3 different ethical crossroads that failed each of your 3 businesses, that each of our values and ethics would contribute to numerous different responses as to whether you handled each of those situations ethically and/or properly. If not, then I suspect your ethical crossroads were unique to your circumstances, since I do not think everyone would regularly reach a crossroad in business where they had to stab their mother in the back to succeed -- let alone three times. <br /><br />(N.B. No reference to anyone's specific mother and/or other family member is meant, either explicitly or implicitly; for reference-sake "mommy" can mean the woman or female otherwise giving birth to a generic widget or animal other than human.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shane, how can Mastro's alteration of cards by methods that are frowned upon by PSA only be considered "Mastro's business"? Are we not buying their cards?
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Shane you may be right this is all tilting at windmills, but as Auden wrote, "All I have is a voice to undo the folded lie."
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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Mastro should disclose the fact of each card it has either submitted or resubmitted for grading, and if the latter, the before and after grades should be noted. The fact that the card was submitted or resubmitted by the auction house is information I believe bidders would use in factoring their bids. This in and of itself is neutral, and we don't have to get into what might have been done to the card (although I would certainly want to know). Also, if any card submitted by the house has been rejected, such fact should be disclosed if the card is going to be sold raw.<br /><br />I would like to know from Doug whether this will be done and if not, why not.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Shane, Doug HAS NOT stated specifically what will or will not be disclosed. That is what we want to know. <br /><br />What he has stated is that he will disclose all alterations they know about. They do not considered spooning, and some other things, to be alterations, but others do. Many of us want to know if spooning and other things they don't consider alterations, will be disclosed.<br /><br />so far, it's been more like hearing from the oracle of Delphi where the king is told an empire will be greatly expanded.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jay you are so wrong my friend, they will disclose alterations. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>Every person I talk to that has been in the hobby 20 yrs or more knows it's always gone on and always will.....I mainly collect gd-vg cards so it's really not that big of a deal. I would be more attacking the grading companies if I were you. They are the ones not catching the things that can't be detected </i><br /><br /><font color=blue>Gotta wholeheartedly disagree with that analysis. That's like saying it's the Fed's fault that counterfeit bills are in circulation. Sorry, but the perp is the primary problem.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I don't care what representatives of PSA, SGC or GAI say on their web pages, in writing on on telephone calls. They are all grading cards daily, by the dozens, which have had creases/wrinkles removed. While they may not actively condone this process, they are either unable or unqualified to detect it. When a card has been pressed to the point where it has been flattened, the card will be rejected and garner the rejection codes presented above for being pressed or altered.<br /><br />The grading companies say/write one thing and they practice another either due to incompetence or because it is impractical for them to be expected to catch something that is not there. When a hairline wrinkle is removed, it is undetectable and will not be coming back. <br /><br />I understand Jeff's interest in having full disclosure on methods used to prepare or repair a card but I don't see that forthcoming from dealers. This is a hobby reality not exclusive to Mastro.<br /><br />Greg
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>This sort of activity goes on in almost any industry where there is a quick flip for a quick profit. Why is anybody surprised that it has happened, continues to happen and will always happen- with that landscape?
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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If a company says it identifies altered cards, it has to be able identify altered cards. If it is their claim, it's their claim.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Greg, I agree. No one is claiming it is a Mastro-centric problem. Doug's the only one that comes out here, though, and attempts to engage us on the issue without engaging us at all. As I've said before, this is what you get with an unregulated industry.
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"...this is what you get with an unregulated industry." BINGO!<br />
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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Yes, that's just what we need more Regulation... NOT... The collectors/market forces regulate this hobby and I prefer that to any new Bureaucracy run by the same type of people who run the UN.<br /><br /> Be well Brian
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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Doug is probably having second thoughts...again...about coming on here and exposing himself to criticism. <br /><br />That said, I would like him to address his company's policy in regard to PSA's N5 category:<br /><br /><I>[N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, <B>crease or wrinkle is pressed out,</B> or gloss is enhanced.]</I><br /><br><br>Frank
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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />As a lawyer, I suggest that the fact that you can't get an answer to your question answers your question. It ain't gonna happen. 'Nuff said. Best,<br /><br />Kenny Cole
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since you only know how to disagree, as evidenced by your participation on the board, I will take it you agree with me. Thanks ......
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