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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Bobby's posting of log in ID's and time, whether true or not, completely worthless.<br /><br />For some of you all to throw this back at Edacra like he now has to prove something is ridiculous:<br /><br />1. Bobby has posted a bunch of numbers - no way for me, you or most others to confirm whose IP address that is. Moreover, Bobby certainly has edacra's ip address, so its not like it couldnt be fabricated (and again, Im not saying it is - only that we neither know, nor could know for sure and therefore, the "evidence" is worthless). The only person without a dog in this fight, Leon, has provided at least some info that its not Edacra's IP address. I guess we can just wait for edacra to post his documentation that the computer was being repaired - wont that be fun.<br /><br />2. Bobby's site has a vip and non vip membership. I have never joined, but have logged into his site on numerous occassions - does that mean if I suddenly spotted bills on my credit card I would have to prove a negative - i.e. that I never visited the vip sections of the forum? In other words, even if the records are accurate and the IP address is Edacra's, it wouldnt show use of the vip membership.<br /><br />Finally, whoever mentioned that Bobby's lawyer consultation fees far exceed the amount of any refund just won my prize for most humorous post.

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Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />I think he stated the log was faked and not the IP address.

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>SteveM. Please don't misrepresent my statements. <br /><br />I said: "The IP address you used with your FAKED log for me is an AOL IP.<br />Roadrunner/Time Warner is my primary IP."<br /><br /><br />Clearly my intention was to claim it's the log which is faked. <br />I don't use AOL for internet access and I had not visited the site in question since September.<br /> <br /><br />Are you going to ask Bobby why he would have allowed an IP to continue accessing his site after requesting a cancellation? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>... I work on a Web site for a decent-sized midwestern newspaper. Although I'm not on the "tech" staff, I am familiar with the basic workings of a Web site and more important, with the issue of privacy.<br /><br />The second line on the terms and conditions page of vintagecardprices.com reads: "All of your personal information is kept strictly confidential."<br /><br />In my opinion, this ceased to be the case when the identity of a person lodging a complaint was posted in this forum. I know that the majority of companies -- and not just newspapers and Fortune 500 companies -- treat their Web site privacy policy with great reverence, because if you violate that trust with your customers, what do you have left?<br /><br />I think Joann nailed it when she said that quite often this forum has been used to promote vintagecardprices.com. Yet when this negative topic concerning the site was posted, one of the initial things I read was Barak XXXX identity being revealed. You can argue that if Barak was going to throw stones, he should have identified himself to this board. Maybe. But it wasn't the job of vintagecardprices.com to do that.<br /><br />As for the log-in issue, I can only tell you that I rarely have to re-enter my log-in info on vintagecardprices.com. I'm assuming they attach a cookie to my computer that recognizes me when I return to the site. That's fine -- and quite normal. But the point is, if that's the case in Barak's case, then it would seem that vintagecardprices.com would have to know what pages he accessed upon returning to the site -- something they've said they do not have the capability to do.<br /><br />Whatever the specifics, the name-calling and accusations are secondary. What's of greatest concern to me is vintagecardprices.com's violation of its own privacy policy. <br /><br />edited out last name only (moderator)

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Reading over this crazy thread, it seems to me that what probably happened originally is the consumer requested a cancellation, and the provider probably made a mistake and forgot to cancel the subscription. Everyone makes mistakes.<br /><br />The consumer came on the board and stated his problem, as many do with sellers on ebay on this board. However, since it was against a board regular/member, many seemed to have a problem with this. Both sides, in any event, seem to lose a little credibility near the end here with the name slinging.<br /><br />It's almost on the verge of looking like a schoolyard fight. <br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Rob:<br /><br />I think the privacy issue is a two-way street. When Barak made his initial post I think he waived the privledge. I could be wrong but that's my take on that issue.<br /><br />Barak and Noel:<br /><br />The point I was making is that if you delete the reference to "FAKED" log your sentence reads:<br /><br />The IP address you used (...) is an AOL IP. <br />Roadrunner/Time Warner is my primary IP. <br /><br />With that reading it makes it appear as though you are denying that you have an AOL Internet Provider.<br /><br />The allegation that the log is "FAKED" is distinct from that. I undestand that you allege the log to be "FAKED". <br /><br />Your Honor:<br /><br />I don't think further dicussion to be "pointless". My decision to continue with the services of VCP hinges on the eventual outcome.<br /><br />Steve Murray<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Who exactly was the best TV lawyer by the way? LOL

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Steve- that's fair enough, but I don't see the issue being resolved on this thread. It has been going on all day and is muddier now than it was this morning.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Perry Mason <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Just a question that could help with the IP address. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I'll understand. What state do you live in?<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>What is muddy about this? Edacra showed the SCREENSHOT of his cancellation in September. Bobby wrote some number down. It's pretty clear to me who is lying.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Are we having Italian food at NYC Dinner II or not?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I lost my appetite.

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Actually, Barak might have been in poor form taking his beef public, but in no way did he "waive" his right to privacy. Let's say you do your banking online and your bank charges you an outrageous fee for an ATM withdrawal. You got to the BankinginAmerica message board and rip your bank. Do they now have the right to post your personal info? Of course not.<br /><br />In many states, a Web site's duty to adhere by its privacy policy can be a matter of law. Being the victim of a thrown stone on a message board certainly doesn't give the Web site the right to violate its privacy policy.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Perfect time to start an Atlanta Dinner Thread. You NY guys aren't doing too well at solving all of the hobby's problems. Ha Ha

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>New York, NY. <br /><br />As far as I know, AOL no longer acts as a service provider. My bill comes from Time Warner and I believe they provide the IP. As Leon suggested, their dial-up service doesn't use static IP numbers. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Mr. Bretta has a point. If Bobby was able to find the log-in dates they must have shown up on his computer screen. If so, why not post a screenshot?<br /><br />Best TV lawyer: a tie between David Rappaport (the three foot tall actor on a few episodes of L.A. Law) and Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I was thinking that little blonde girl on that show on CBS on friday night at 9:00 EST.....can't think of the name of the show...

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Well, if it means anything, and I suggest a few of you try it to verify, plug in the IP address at the site below. It showed where mine was and shows the IP address posted by Bobby being just northeast of Wichita, KS. Barak is in NY, NY.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.ip-adress.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.ip-adress.com/</a><br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Lionel Hutz was another great TV lawyer, but when Phil Hartmann died, so did the character.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>It's gotta be Ben Matlock!<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>You'd take Andy Griffith over the young blonde? My lord....<br /><br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Why does everyone always want to have threads about dinner? Doesn't anyone have lunch anymore? I don't know why this board is so anti-lunch.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I quit lunches a couple years back in favor of brunches...which is a little weird to ask guys to a brunch....dont you think?<br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Arnie Becker from LA Law. That's why I went to law school!

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I ain't no big fan of the judge shows, but I heard her say on Larry King that the truth is a funny thing....if it sounds true, and feels true, it usually IS true.<br /><br />In this particular case, a guy called Barak had an issue with his card service, tried to cancel it, and then six months later has tried again to cancel the service. <br />For me, the likelihood of ANYONE thinking that this would all make a great scam for the return of $60, and knowingly then enter his beef onto a public forum - fully realizing the s#%t storm it would raise, and the likely exposure of the facts as they can be ascertained.....most thinking people just wouldn't risk the public humiliation without right on their side.<br /><br />It feels and sounds that everything Barak has said is true.<br />That he has become upset because Steve and Dave are calling him out for an unsubstantiated as yet log - ALSO rings of the truth.<br /><br />If it were me, I would have told you all to bleep off after showing the screen capture of an attempt to cancel the membership, and a very obvious response from Bobby that he LIED was never made.....until the truth was displayed for all to see.<br /><br />Tell me anyone here would not be royally pee'd off with the events as they unfolded.<br />No way to run a business.<br />Great way to demostrate a lack of professionalism and misuse of pathos.<br />No way to get me to ever use those services, no matter how many other happy campers he may have signed up.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>This is by far the dumbest thread ever to hit Network 54 - way worse than the NYC Dinner Thread I. I'm amazed at how much free time some people have.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>126 post later I'm waiting for the punch line... <br /><br />Hey guys, guess what... I think I saved on my car insurance...

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I've seen worse. Lots worse.<br /><br />Thankfully the hobby's backbone seems to have vanished from Net54.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>...then again, why would Bobby, a pretty shrewd businessman, let a mere $60 refund get this far? Doesn't make sense. He had to know that an unhappy customer has ways to let the world know stuff.<br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Dave, I'll take you up on the "Atlanta" dinner. I'm over here in Peachtree City. Maybe we can invite Ted "Blacksox" person from CardPricer.Com to join us..He is in Buckhead I think. Not sure how many other board member are from the Atlanta area? I think Jeff D. is up North there as well... <br /><br />Fred---- I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night and what happend there stays there!!!! How's that for a punch line?

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>you may be right, so go bump my thread about Rarity with a response. I only have the one and its affecting my self esteem <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Fair point on the brunch thing...<br /><br />My favorite TV lawyer is the Biscuit on Ally McBeal.<br /><br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- dumber than the NYC dinner thread? That thread was my baby!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, we're treading very close to the NYC Dinner Thread I territory. And keep in mind that we've gotten this far on this thread without any backbone. Can you imagine?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>He has done a bit of a vanishing act, hasn't he? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Lets see if we can get this thread moving.<br /><br />Bretta not trying to turn this into a punk rock thread yet. I don't get it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>And reappeared just as quickly! Where have you been hiding?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Crap! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Ok... down here in Kentucky a fella has to put some socks on, before he can change them. I've got that done. Drank some brown wine with supper (brown wine is Kentucky bourbon for the uninformed, and supper is that evening meal, ain't no dinners except at KFC). I'll drive on in a bit.<br /><br />Seems to me that a collector can advance only so much during his collecting days. These modern collectors started later than me, and have greater potential to advance. I started years ago and can't go as far... I won't ever get to the stage where I'll pay someone else to tell me what my card is and what its condition is, nor will I reach a point where I pay someone each month for their opinion as to the value of my cards. I guess it is my loss. Or losses.<br /><br />Barry, what time do these New York dinners start? Are there dancin' girls?<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />A number of e-mails have yold me that Network 54 is "duller than dishwater" "as exciting as watching grass grow" "dull dull dull the last three weeks". I am sure Leon would tell you number of hits is way down as he got in a couple of barbs at me.<br /><br />Actually decided that Network 54 is not the vehicle to try to clean up the hobby. A number of people care but a large number are happy with their ungraded altered cards. So anything I do will be apart from Net54.<br /><br />I know you care Barry and you get it but the majority don't.<br /><br />Dav<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>And on the subject of this trhread, VCP is one of the very best things about the hobby today and by far has the best price information.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Boy, its been quite a day!<br /><br />VCP is not a site where you get an opinion on the value of a card. It's a site that provides auction results for PSA, SGC and GAI graded cards that have sold at auction and on ebay. For the yoot (or as you put it the "modern collectors") it is a helpful tool. For the old timers (and I at 63 consider myself as one) it may not have much relevance.<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I'm open to getting together with the Atlanta guys. I think there is 6 or 7 from what Ted was saying. I do know Ted likes Krystal's. I also know I do not...ha ha.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Dave, I heard it was the "Varsity". He is within walking distance I think. Ted mentioned Sushi last time we spoke... I thought that might be exposing him to, too much culture..

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I think Sushi would be exposing me to too much culture...being from south GA originally.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We dined early at 6:00, a bit atypical of New Yorkers, and I knew something was missing that evening...next time we get some dancing girls!<br /><br />And Jim, I know you may have not gotten the support you wanted from the board, but there are so many other good things for us to talk about.<br /><br />We might even get Dan Bretta to find a video of the Zombies playing "She's Not there." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Everyone should listen to "Odessey and Oracle" by the Zombies......the great unknown 60's album

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Its all fine--when I first posted I thought that Net54 was made up of serious dedicated pre-war collectors who cared about serious issues in the hobby--some meet this description--most do not. <br /><br />So it is better if this is pursued to take those from here that believe change is needed and pursue things separately.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>And Barry--I think you guys should turn this into a punk music board--there is a tremendous amount of knowledge about that subject here.