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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Ok, I will say it:<br /><br />Do you even think through these arguments?<br /><br />"it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it"<br /><br />Thats the equivilent of me asking the networks for a piece of their advertising revenue because with out me and the other millions of viewers, no one would watch their shows.<br /><br />Next, before someone else sets up a "commercial" site - they better have members and a base or there will be no ad revenue. <br /><br />Finally, since most people arent against this idea, just who is going to leave this site to go to another "commercial" site? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't think it would be possible to start another site and have even 1% of the traffic that net54 has.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Josh-- I might ask you the same thing. Does the TV viewer provide the network's content? No, and therefore they have no call on any portion of the revenue stream. The production companies do provide the content and last time I checked they did have significant revenue streams for their efforts. The posters on the board provide the content; the lurkers do not. One might argue that the posters who provide the most should share in the revenue stream. Again, the lurkers deserve nothing since they add nothing.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Actually Jay, I thought through that very point and, while my example was not perfect, it is true that without viewers, there would be no advertising and therefore no content.

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Posted By: <b>darren</b><p>As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking.

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Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>I enjoy this board very much and I appreciate the fact that it is free. Put me down as a "yes".<br /><br />Rick

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>I agree with Dr. D. As a longtime lurker and very infrequent poster, I don't really care what the site looks like - just what's in it. If I just discovered this place and it was covered with ads on each page, it would never even occur to me who got and how much the revenue is. I sincerely doubt that Leon is looking at this as a personal opportunity for enrichment - just to get back to even. I don't know how the moderator crown is acquired, but I haven't seen any of the objectors offer to step up in order to keep the site "pure". As in most volunteer situations, the effort is twice as expected, the reward about half. Let no good deed go unpunished.<br />William List<br />(Leon - can we have an East Coast dinner sometime? Especially since you will be buying)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If you all come into Brooklyn, I might even pick up the tab. I rarely stray too far out of my neighborhood. We can meet at Peter Luger's, the best steakhouse there is.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I'm there.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Put me on the mailing list for that.<br /><br />sounds good to me.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Seems like no big deal to me, unless the situation developed where an advertiser pressured Leon to remove or dilute content that was critical of the advertiser, but I assume even if such a now hypothetical situation were to arise (as I suppose it could in the case of an auction house) Leon would not do so.

Banner advertising on the board?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know, you can go broke treating everybody at Peter Luger's. But at least you go broke with a full stomach and a smile on your face. Best porterhouse steak in the world! For those who have been there, you know what I'm saying.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Peter Lugers.........I'll call when I'm in town next time.......Leon offered Sizzler but the steak's just a wee bit tough......

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Comparing Luger's to Sizzler's is like comparing a T206 Wagner to the Billy Ripken with "f*** you" on the bat.

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>WOW this thread got really long before I read it. Well as one of the first posters on this site after the Full Count board went crazy and broke off into this site, I can see this board heading the same way with this thread now. I have talked with Leon about this in detail before he posted this and my response to him was, I think it is going to cause some waves and loose some people. I also said, would I want to run this board, NO!!!! and would I want to be paid something for it if I was YES!!! So something does have to change because I know I don't want to do it and I would "guess" that the people against the ads don't want to run this site themselves without compensation either. I think Leon does a ton of work on this site and should get compensated for it as well as the past moderators for building it in the first place. What is the best rout for that I do not know. As Jay does bring up a good point about the content providers of this site and what if BOB's Auctions starts buying ad space here and John Smith a big poster from the past stops posting because he hates BOB's auction? After reading the posts here I am getting a little worried. I would hate to see any person who holds great information for this hobby to stop posting, even if they hardly ever post. In-fact I would hate to see anything lost from this site at all. I read it everyday. I also love that it's a free site.<br /><br />Leon, I would like to say when you first posted this thread you gave me the impression that you where asking the boards opinions about the ads before you did it. But now that I read some of your replies I have the impression you have already made your mind up and are basically saying, "IF you feel so strongly then you need to do as you must. take care...." I just wanted to let you know the impression I am getting from all of this. Am I correct in assuming you already made your mind up that the ads are a go?<br /><br />Like I said I don't want to run this site so who am I to say Leon can't get paid for his time, but I do not want to see this community change in anyway either.<br /><br />Trevor Hocking

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I still don't understand why people would stop posting, or would censor their own posts? But- I've never claimed to be smart...

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I find I am very much in Jay's camp on this issue. Besides, I like his idea of cutting in the major posters <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom.<br /><br />Trevor also makes a good observation, this post wasn't made by Leon with his mind undecided. Each psot he made gave the impression that he had already decided that he will be running ads and that he is basically trying to find out how flack he is going to get.<br /><br />I'm against the ads. There more than enough frequenters of the board that if if everyone pitched in jsut $1 each, it would more than cover costs and give Leon a little money for his effort. If I was running the board, that's pretty much how I'd do it.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Actually you are wrong. I had not made my mind up and still haven't. The overwhelming majority don't have an issue with a banner ad. Jay Miller has, from what I can tell, the biggest issue...and was really getting under my skin so I basically told him he needs to do what he needs to do. That's all. I called him after that post and we talked for a few minutes. He didn't change his mind but at least we talked about it. I still haven't made my mind up but if I let the board vote on it, according to this thread, most folks don't have a problem with it. It's just not that big of a deal unless you make it one.... So I am leaning towards giving it a try. Thanks for your input.....and best regards...

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom."<br /><br />HUH???<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Nice.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jay- I appreciate the kind words but I would never ask for anything in return for posting on this board. I actually enjoy it and it is a kind of hobby for me. I accept that I have been around the hobby a long time but I post because I like sharing information. Leon does all the work, not me. If something is aggravating I can just shut off the computer; Leon can't, he has to deal with it. I think he should give it a try and I think he will know in a reasonably short time what if any problems he will have to deal with.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Jay B - please tell me that was an attempt at sarcasm.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>Mr. Leon, I read alot...posting once in awhile..so my input on this topic, in my opinion, won't way much on your decision. I would be here with or without the banners! I would stand behind your decision. I trust that you'll see this thru & I like the way you set up disbanning the whole idea if it doesn't seem to be working out. I do need to ask you one question though...If you want the boards demeanor to stay the same, Why change it at all? Will this change it? If it does, than won't you change the demeanor? Okay, that was 3 Questions... It's all Good! But, I am glad that you're making the decision though!!!! Your Irish Friend, Denny

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>This is both simple and complicated.<br /><br />Simple - here are the things we all seem to agree on, for the most part:<br /><br />1) No individual should have to bear the cost of site maintenance alone.<br />2) The time it takes to maintain the site should also be worth at least someting.<br />3) We all like the site, and want to keep it as close to its present feel, policy, culture, etc, as possible.<br /><br />Complicated:<br /><br />If we all agree that money should be somewhere in the picture, then it can only come from one of two sources - internal or external. The site can either go "corporate" (someone earlier used that term, and it's probably pretty correct) or "co-op".<br /><br />I don't object to ads, but also have some agreement with those that object to it. I don't think a day goes by that I am not dealing with the Law of Unintended Consequences in one way or another. It's a slippery slope - if you make this change, there is no way to know what all will come of it down the road.<br /><br />I also don't think anyone has a major problem with Leon doing it because there seems to be high regard for his outlook and philosophy. But what if the next person is different, and the ad barrier has already been broken? That might be a whole 'nother story. <br /><br />So the only other option to help out financially is to have the users pay for the use. I would not mind that, myself. I also know that many of the most valuable posters would mind having to pay for it.<br /><br />Maybe better minds than mine can come up with a Solomon-like solution. I would not only be willing to kick in myself if that's what it comes down to, but I would also be willing to put in more so that others could post without paying, if need be. Like I said ... complicated.<br /><br />But if there is general agreement that some kind of financial input into the system is needed, then either ads should be okay or we should collectively try to come up with a workable alternative.<br /><br />Workable = financially manageable for everyone, covers cost and time and is not excessively burdensome to administer.<br /><br />Any Solomon's out there?<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I really hope that no one takes offense at this post. There is no offense intended. My intent is to highlight statements which may represent outstanding issues perhaps worthy of further discussion, and in some instances bring a little levity to the subject, which is certainly deserved imho. This subject is far from earth sharrtering in its import.<br /><br />I think that if I was a wise man, at this juncture I would accept one stated opinion, specifically:<br /><br />As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking.<br /><br />But I am not that man. The man that I am feels as if he is a part of a team on which each player does what he can for the common good. And on this team there are many Hodges’, Campanellas, Sniders, Robinsons, etc. and there are also Don Zimmers, John Roseboros, Sandy Amoros and so on. And I certainly do not fancy myself as any of them. But having established myself as an other than wise man, let me forge forward into the crack of my doom.<br /><br />Is Net54 an entity which can be actually owned? If so, is it actually owned, as stated below?<br /><br />leon leon <br />(Premier Login leonl)<br />Forum Owner<br /><br />If this is owned, sell it on eBay or wherever you can, is my recommendation. Keep the proceeds and let the new owners worry about moderating us. And selling ad space.<br /><br />That may be entirely silly, or it may be the catalyst.<br /><br />In any case there has been some rationale stated worthy of further comment. Of these statements, I have selected the following to be looked at again:<br /><br />“ … others, if the amount of money involved was significant, might want to share in the revenue stream since it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it”. <br /><br />This seems true on the surface. However, the initial thrust of our current effort was to minimize OT posts. This is what was wanted, offered and accomplished. All with no small effort on Leon’s part. And while maintaining on topic focus in the threads, Leon has contributed inquiries, information and insight pretty close to as much as anyone.<br /><br />Another statement:<br /><br />“One might argue that the posters who provide the most should share in the revenue stream. Again, the lurkers deserve nothing since they add nothing”.<br /><br />I do not agree with this at all. I do not offer my commentary as an actor, consultant, protestor, infidel, passerby, or in any capacity; and I demand to be uncompensated for my efforts  Of course, it is also convenient that no one has accused me of being a “poster who provides the most”.<br /><br />But also, does anyone really think that an advertiser would offer Leon the windfall amounts that they are talking, solely based on the number of posters which we have? Oh no, no, no. The value is in the lurkers.<br /><br />And the ever popular copout: <br />“As far as I am concerned it's none of my business, but thank you Leon for asking”.<br />Come on. We are all on the team. Pull your weight. Don’t give me that I am too humble to offer my opinion malarky.<br /><br />And the seemingly inappropriate, but actually dead center on our weak point bullseye:<br /><br />“ … what if BOB's Auctions starts buying ad space here and John Smith a big poster from the past stops posting because he hates BOB's auction”? <br /><br />Oh no. Now its time to take a stand:<br />“I like his idea of cutting in the major posters Besides, as pointed out, people myself, Barry, Mark Macrae, Frank Ward and other posters with vast knowledge are the true draw of this board. Without that knowledge base, this board is nothing but a chatroom”.<br /><br />What is more useless the guy with the answers but no questions, or the one with the questions without answers? Oh wait, I know. It does not apply. We are a team. And on our team, everyone thinks that they are the best – and will tell you why – for as long as you will listen. That is, almost everybody.<br /><br />Money is a useful tool, when used correctly.<br />A hammer may be better if driving a nail is the task at hand.<br />A chainsaw works best when cutting down a tree.<br />Anyone know how to best use money in this context?<br /><br />Right now it seems like the potential for money is making people crazy.<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Josh, no, it was a serious comment. You take away the knowledgable people of this board and all you have left are a bunch of collectors chatting about cards, wishing that someone knew more about what they are collecting.<br /><br />I don't have a problem sharing my knowledge. Just like Barry, I don't mind freely dispensing it. I also don't have a problem with Leon getting some nominal compensation for the work he does. Where I have a problem is if Leon, or whoever might be running the board, starts making a large chunk of money (not sure what dollar amount that would be) then I want to see people like Barry, Frank, etc compensated for their knowledge. Leon may be doing the dirty work behind the scenes but he is replacable, but the board will live and die with it's knowledge base. Do you really think this board would be as good if Barry, Frank, Jay Miller, etc quit dispensing valuable information? These people are far more difficult to replace than Leon as moderator.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>From my perspective there are a great number of knowledgeable people on this board and I don't think it would suffer much if one or two prima donnas took their toys and left over a nonissue like a banner on the page. You people may think Leon is "replaceable" but how many of us would be willing to devote the time and energy he has?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Peter, this issue isn't really with banner ad, it's with how much money will be generated. As I pointed out, there is no need to resort to banner ads. A simple call for donations should more than cover anything. If there are 750 different people reading this baord and we each send $1 to Leon, I's think that is more than enough to cover expenses and compensate him for something he claims to love.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>This is a baseball card chat board, who on earth is going to spend any serious money to have a banner here. Cmon let's be real.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Well, no one seems to have any idea what kind of moeny Leon is talking about, but I have a rough idea base on one ad I have on my personal site. Given what I get for my ad on my site, I'm pretty sure Leon will be getting about about 20-50 times the amount I getting paid to have an ad on my site based on hits here and hits on my site.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I am for the banners as well as Leon making money.<br /><br />The colossal ego of a certain person on this board is appalling.......the "draw of the board". <br /><br />We can only hope as Peter says that he will take his toys and go home so that more graded vintage collectors will join.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Seriously. Get real. Most of what I hear from (some of) the self-proclaimed "expert(s)" is a bunch of editorial, off-topic (yet sometimes amusing) drivel and NO "knowledge" about cards.<br /><br />As I said before, let's stop taking ourselves so seriously and have some humilty (and fun?) for Pete's sake.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"I'm pretty sure Leon will be getting about about 20-50 times the amount I getting paid to have an ad on my site based on hits here and hits on my site."<br /><br />So Leon will be getting 20 to 50 dollars a pop? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Cobby,<br /><br />Absolutely.<br /><br />Now Peter and King,<br /><br />How much can we charge for our graded card expertise here, hmmmm(ha ha ha).

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Jim, if it's PSA expertise you are talking about not a hell of a lot with this crowd.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Thats not true--the person who wants to be paid always talks about all the trimmed cards in psa holders--that is the kind of expertise I would pay big bucks for. Actually I would pay for his expertise if he would take it somewhere else and promise never to return--maybe the Becketts board.<br /><br />Seriously, although I like and respect Jay Miller.....<br /><br />1)Advertising is a no-brainer in my opinion.<br />2)Leon will probably take out a nominal amount--the guy devotes a huge amount of time and effort to this and deserves to make several thousand dollars for what he does.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I 2nd that emotion.

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Posted By: <b>Robert Lifson</b><p>I have discussed this with Leon and just want to go on the record to say that if I had my choice, I’d much prefer there to be no banner ads on the forum. To me, the board would be a very different place if there were this type of advertising, especially by auction houses who would likely be the most interested advertisers. One of the special qualities of the board in my eyes is that the board is totally independent with reference to advertising. Without advertising, it may be as close to a level playing field for all subjects that are discussed as is possible. Anything that would potentially compromise this independence or even give the appearance of undermining impartiality I would find to be a very undesirable change. If banner advertising is implemented, I’m sure the board would still be great, but I do believe that something special would be lost and I think that should at least be recognized. The old board, in my eyes, would no longer exist, and would be replaced by something that looks very similar, but is commercial, and in this subtle way is very different. There are pluses and minuses to every action. I did make a suggestion to Leon that I thought might have merit: Keep the board free of banner ads but charge companies to have their links on the vintage links page. In this way, a modest charge would add up because there are so many companies, and the site would not change at all (except a few links might come down of companies that don’t find any value in being listed). I don’t believe there is a right or wrong answer to banner ads, and if the board is owned by Leon (which I believe is accurate) then of course it is his to do with as he pleases, but since we have been asked for feedback, I am just providing my personal opinion. I have nothing against free enterprise but also have always had the feeling that the board belonged to everyone and part of its power was that it was not beholden to any special interests. The board has a special place in the collecting community. I’d like to see it protected from anything that might threaten it. Leon, we all appreciate the work you do. Though I don’t feel the same way you do regarding this potential change in direction, I hope that whatever changes are made if any turn out to be very positive.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Robert Lifson<br />President<br />Robert Edward Auctions LLC<br />www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com<br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I'll stay either way Leon, even though it seems I'm not one who helps form the "knowledge base", whatever BS elitist comment that was, so my voice should be discounted accordingly. Hell, I'm just happy to be here <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I did ask for a response and as normal you gave a well thought out, intelligent one. I will take your response into consideration moving forward. BTW, when will you contribute to the knowledge base of the forum? You are truly one of the pioneers still in the hobby and are one of the most knowledgeable people I know. Regardless of which way it goes I am proud to have you as a lurker. Thanks again for your feedback. Talk to you soon.....<br /><br />(Your vote counts as a lurker vote....kind of like the underbidder....underappreciated and much needed <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ).....<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>I'm a mostly lurker here, but I love the cards. Banner ads are fine. They would help new readers on better venues than Ebay to take the plunge into pre-war cards.<br /><br />One thing that I would find helpful is if the entity placing the ads were asked to contribute to discussions more frequently. ie: Not just when a problem with their reputation comes up. Getting Barry's insight in many threads is fantastic and I have to believe that many of those who would plan on advertising could make the discussions here better as well.<br /><br />Bring on the ads, just please no shady java junk to keep them on the top of the page. <br /><br />Thanks for putting in all the effort here Leon.<br /><br />Soren

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Yeah, Im not one of the chosen few either. Funny thing is, I havent heard one of the "real contributors" identified by Jay state they would leave the board if it had a banner ad. Indeed, Barry stated just the opposite.

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I basically followed the lead with those who felt it was alright with Leon to profit and a day later, this thread has jumped with much opposition. If you ask one hundred people a question, any question on this Board, you will have some opposition. That's a given. <br /><br />Cobby hit it on the head of late: <br /><br />Seriously. Get real. Most of what I hear from (some of) the self-proclaimed "expert(s)" is a bunch of editorial, off-topic (yet sometimes amusing) drivel and NO "knowledge" about cards.<br /><br />Um, yeah. C'mon Jay. You think people come here for your O/T banter? <br />People glued to their seats in anticipation of your latest message regarding Dorskind! Links to cartoons you found on the Internet! Steroid chit chat! Non-baseball interactive challenges! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The bigger this Forum gets, the more "Sean's" you will get. The more anger from the "Regular viewership" who call out a person's innocent question regarding the Holy Grail by calling them a "Sean". <br /><br />I would rather have a harmless banner then advertisers posting in the Forum to announce an upcoming auction that keeps getting lifted to the top with comments like: "nice cards!", "nice stuff!", "neat items" and such. My mailbox is already loaded with e-mails giving me a countdown to the precise moment when the auction ends. <br /><br />Why should these auction companies use the VBC Forum to get the word out for free, when I'm sure they pay a heavy sum to advertise in a particular Wisconsin rag? <br /><br />Whatever you do Leon, I stand behind you as there is no site like this and I appreciate the babysitting you do and the sites existence.<br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mike Pugeda</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I feel the decision should be ultimately yours after having taken into consideration the opinions offered. It seems as though many are opposed not to you making a profit, but rather a significant profit. Sometimes board members make significant profits on the free BST, right? I'm not sure why the dollar amount should matter. Maybe if the shoe was on the other foot, the responses might be different. <br /><br />I personally pay little or no attention at all to banner ads, I have no interest. But as long as you remain impartial, that is all that matters. From years of lurking, I feel you have been fair and impartial without question.<br /><br />The basis of this board is for the sharing of knowledge and I don't see how an advertiser, regardless of their stature in the hobby, will disrupt this aspect of the board. In other instances, it may be a "slippery slope", but this board can be very vocal and I don't think a paid advertiser is going to curb what someone wants to say.<br /><br />My vote is yes, and let the naysayers find the commercial-free pre-war baseball card utopia they so desire.<br /><br />Mike Pugeda

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>DJ, I'll put knowledge up against almost anyone. I was lucky enough to learn from some of the pioneers and leaders in the hobby. Yes, I do post OT stuff, but that's becuase I don't take this all that seriously. I like to have fun, just like anyone else. <br /><br />I like Rob's idea of having companies pay to have their website listed there. That should generate more than enough money, but this also run into the problem of if people see the link there, then they will think that the dealer/auction house is approved by the board.<br /><br />If Leon isn't willing to do this for the love of it as was his original intent, then maybe it's time for him to pass the torch to the next person. Or he can go ahead put up the ads which will forever change what this board is. Or he can maintain the stus quo. No matter he does, I don't think the board will be quite the same afterwards.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree entirely with Rob Lifson that the board will change in some subtle way with banners but everything in the world is changing so maybe this is just the natural process. As I stated earlier Leon will know in short order whether the changes are working or creating problems, and I am certain he will address them accordingly.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I would rather not see advertising on the board, but with that said it would most likely not affect my participation. I would rather "pass the hat" annually or bi-annually to establish an account to compensate people who maintain the board, fund dinners/social activities at the National, etc.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>As I have always done I will let this thread go in some sort of moderation. Get your licks in today. It will be locked tomorrow as I don't want to discuss this subject longer than need be to make a final decision. Most likely banner ads will be given a try....For the naysayers only time will tell. I am not sure losing one, or a few of them (naysayers), wouldn't be a net gain. With kind regards ......

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Especially if you lose the right one(s). Could guarantee you would get more graded card people to post.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- do you really think that the graded card people are unfairly treated on this board? I don't think they have been, and most of the discussions about grading vs. not grading have been intelligent and well balanced. In fact, I think you have actually been as persuasive as anyone because of your well thought out posts.