Nice cards Al. This is my favorite Clemente. A real missing yellow error.:) There are some awesome Clemente cards in the Clemente thread in the post war section.

DARE I say it, now that I think of it == Nolan Ryan.

Wrong sport, but Namath.

At least I didn't say it on the postwar forum. But seriously all the Ks notwithstanding he's maybe marginally in the top 25 as a pitcher IMO. Comparing him to Seaver is like, I don't know what, comparing Andy Warhol to Monet or something.

Agreed. Top 2 or 3 at 2nd base means you have to put him ahead of at least half of these guys: Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Joe Morgan, Nap Lajoie. That's untenable. The order is debatable, but those are pretty clearly the top 4.

Why does Carew get no love? His OBP SLG OPS and OPS+ are, interestingly and somewhat eerily really, virtually identical to Morgan. 7 batting titles. 3000 hits. Very high BA. Was it his fielding or lack thereof?

Only half his career at 2b if I recall. Same issue with Rose although in his case it's even less than half. Same problem I have calling Yount or Banks a top 5 shortstop.

Plus, his cards look really nice.

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...20Clemente.jpg

For my money the best looking of the 1956 Topps cards.

And again in 1969:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...20Clemente.jpg

and 1972:

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...20Clemente.jpg

Such a shame there wasn't a 1974 Topps tribute card to Clemente.

A few of my favorites.

Many great cards of him.

1. Not the best clutch hitter when the team really needed that big "2 out" hit in a close game.

2. No power whatsoever.... not many extra base hits.

3. No championships at all.

Morgan was a GREAT clutch hitter, had some surprising power, and won two World Championships. Granted, Carew played in Minnesota at a time that they were not great.

Those would be the 3 reasons that immediately come to mind. There's more to it than just stats on paper. But MLB did put the A.L. Batting Title in his name, and he was a great singles hitter.

How many played organized ball and were scouted? How many dropped out of school at 12 to work on the family farm? I read that Carl Yaztrzemski's father was offered a pro contract, but turned it down to stay on the potato farm and help his family during the depression.

His SLG was the same as Morgan's. Less power but a lot more hits.

I don't know what your conception of scouting is in 1910, but you don't have to look any further than Babe Ruth, who was playing baseball at an orphanage when he was discovered. Take a look at Baseball Reference's minor league side whenever you've got a chance. Click through any state you want. Tell me how many town teams you see. And those are only the ones in recognized leagues. That's not even getting into company squads and even lesser town teams.

I too have often used Al Kaline as an example to compare what Clemente's worth would be if he wasn't the hispanic poster boy and didn't die tragically.

Clemente was a great all around player, but in no way shape or form should his cards be in or above the range of Mays, Aaron, Ted Williams etc.

Hispanic Poster Boy...wow

Some of these answers
 

Some of these answers seem to forget baseball is no longer just primarily a US sport with a minor Latin influence and is much more global with a huge Latin influence along with population explosions making the fact that baseball is now the # 3 sport in America rather irrelevant. American Football is only number one in the USA nowhere else. Baseball is still much larger than football
Globally. Though I understand soccer trumps
Them all in popularity.

Umm. Yes. This.

Clemente is an icon who transcends baseball. Great players come and go, but a story like Clemente’s will likely never be replicated.

Mantle, Clemente, and Jackie are the 3 most valuable post war players. Not many collectors I know wanna sell their cards of said players, they only want to buy more !

That doesn’t mean they have the best stats or were the best players. We’re they great players? Absolutely.

More importantly when it comes to value is iconic, popularity, and all around amazing character.

People that don’t know jack about baseball know who Jackie, Clemente, and Mantle are when you mention their names. Just as they know Ruth.

So many thoughts:

1) As a player, Clemente isn't even close to inner circle HOF.

2) As a person, Clemente is definitely inner circle HOF.

3) As for Kaline vs Clemente - how does the fact that Kaline played in a really small RF impact his TZR and assists? Certainly fewer guys would be running on Kaline given how short Tiger Stadium's RF was, especially compared to Forbes.

4) Folks in this thread are giving Jackie Robinson waaaaaaaaay too much credit as a 2B. The guy played 748 of his 1382 games at 2B - 54%. Yeah, it was his most-frequent position but he played 256 games at 3B, 197 at 1B, and 162 in the OF. Guys who played 5 seasons at a position aren't in the conversation for "best ever" at that position. Period.

5) The Owens/De Grasse comparison thing is nonsense. Owens ran a 10.3, De Grasse ran an 11.0. Yep, he was slower. The very time ever wearing that particular kind of shoe, without blocks, etc. Does anybody REALLY think De Grasse wouldn't have been faster with a month of practice using the same equipment? C'mon.

Maybe, maybe not. Nonsense is comparing the time of Jesse Owens, on a cinder track, without blocks etc. against an Olympic athlete with today's advances in technology and training.

Didn't he have a couple of no hitters with all of those ks.

IMO the Clemente rookie is the MOST over valued card in the hobby. Baseball is all about stats and his are just not there.

Haha, I don’t think there was any malicious intent in the comment but I had the same reaction.

So, you think people are inflating the price? Is it really that hard to believe that more people collect Clemente because of his story than players with similar stats?

I personally find it an unattractive card, but I would rather a Clemente RC than that of any Post-War player not named Jackie, Willie, or Mickey.

Interesting to note
 

As a 13 year old kid at his first card show (at the coliseum motor in for those who might remember), not knowing a thing about cards older than 1972 other than that they existed, I was completely taken in by the Clemente rookie card - of all the cards in the room - A couple of hours of begging my mom - who almost had us both certified insane, and $48 later, I had the card that started it all for me - and yes, I still have it - refuse to get it graded and although I have many rarer and worth more, still the card with the most meaning in my entire collection. I still love looking at the card - Not sure exactly why, but one of the most attractive cards imo - Topps ever made.

All about stats. Disagree with you there.

I think it's a cool card: Clemente is one of my favorite players and the '55 set is my favorite set of the '50s.

I dont see his hobby status changing much in either direction. He's top 5 for postwar players in terms of popularity and collectibility, but we will never be as popular as Mantle, Cobb, Ruth, or Gehrig. And as others have mentioned I wouldn't put him ahead of Aaron, Mays, Williams, or DiMaggio personally.

Is Hispanic now a politically incorrect term? News to me if so.

There are innumerably more examples than Clemente in baseball, let alone all other sports that disprove that. Popularity and collectabilty can start with stats but likability, character and story cement demand in many cases.

As stated already, this stats argument on Clemente is null and void. He is an icon because of his life and person. That is why he is valued and should be.

Completely different sport, but as an example, is the demand for Brian Piccolo's rookie to easily sell for hundreds in an 8 because he had 4 TDs in his career or for him as a man? Are Moe Berg's cards worth anything because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn or that his story is perhaps one of the best secrets ever disclosed?

Intangibles.

Define "clutch".

One measure of "clutch" situations is guys in scoring position. Morgan hit .261 with RISP. 2 outs and RISP, just .253.

"Late & Close", he hit .265.

What about .329 with RISP, .319 2 outs and RISP and .343 late and close? Is that a clutch hitter?

Peter, agree 100%

Love this thread
 

All,

I just want to say that I truly enjoy this thread and reading all of the opinions...

Most assessments of someone's "clutch" hitting are anecdotal and biased. I very much doubt that over a career many players deviate significantly from their BA however you define "clutch" situations.

Actual stats say you are wrong. Mike Trout is a career .306 hitter. 2 outs RISP .272. Late and close .252.

Barry Bonds .298 career hitter. 2 outs RISP .266. Late and close .275.

Since you say that the stats argument in null and void, it must be true. Because the man died on a humanitarian mission doesn't explain the crazy value of his cards. HOFer -yes. Thousands of dollars for his cards- NO!

He was a GREAT player
 

While he may not have been the greatest player - he WAS a GREAT player (statistically)! The stats have been mentioned earlier in this thread. In addition to that he 1) Loved and was more passionate than many about the game of baseball and playing it. 2) He was a great role model and face of the game. He fought to maintain his individuality and pride while making any celebration about his fans and family. 3) He gave back in ways that few players do, ultimately giving his life while trying to help on a night that most people were busy partying. His life story is one of achieving the American dream and then dying tragically. Every bit a GREAT player AND so much more. Deserving (imnsho) of being as popular in the baseball card world as he is.

Then explain.

His Topps Rookie is expensive becasue it's a hard card. Aaron way more easy in 54 same with Banks and Kaline. 55 Sandy Rookie Way more easy along with Harmon.

Find me a centered limited print issue Clemente Rookie, not easy to find. People pay up for it all the time. Nice 8's will prob settle back to the $20k range.

Part of it is that he had that intangible quality -- I'm not sure it can be translated accurately, but the Spanish word I have seen is duende. It even comes through on some of his cards I would say.

Great word.

I think he's just become (or rather has been) a icon that inspires people. He also is perhaps the top collecting tier for post war Latin american collectors.

As to the overvalued discussion I simply can't agree as his RC is selling at a rapid pace at good numbers. It has leveled from the false market trends of last summer but is well within fair pricing now. As to his other cards, I feel they have room to grow in the next few years and pick up good cards when I see them at fair prices. I remember buying a dead centered 1959 PSA 8 just a few years back at less than 80 bucks and that just does not happen today. However, you can still find higher grade later issues at sub-100 levels if you watch.

I know I am in the super-minority because I feel the 52 Mantle is the most over-valued card in the hobby. But that is personal opinion, right now and in the foreseeable future that is proven by buyers that my opinion has little water...it's my opinion. I think that the hyperbole about Clemente not being in the upper echelon of collectible postwar RCs holds the same amount of water as my Mantle thoughts. It can be my opinion, but the sales figures just aren't giving it weight.

I think it was more related to the "poster boy" part than the Hispanic reference that caused some to pause. I went through a myriad of reactions within a couple seconds myself but settled on being amused as it was posted by a "Perez". :)

I mean hey, if we going to start making assumptions or generalizations based on someone's perceived intent.... :)

Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more. The Pirates somehow managed to win two World Series with him, in 1960 and 1971, against the '60 Yankees with Mantle, Maris, Ford, Berra, et all, and the '71 Orioles with four 20 game winners, Frank and Brooks Robinson. The guy had incredible power. It's been documented. He's like Ichiro in that regard. And, he played in an aircraft carrier for most of his career home games.

And that sacrificing the glory that comes with home runs for the good of the team should be commended, not dissed. That's the kind of mentality I'd love in a superstar.

The guy was a career .317 hitter. 4 batting titles, and 6 other top 5 finishes. And, he was getting better, as I'd mentioned. Last four seasons, he was a .339 hitter. Clemente could have kept going. Where would his lifetime AVG had ended up? 440 doubles and 240 home runs aren't elite. 166 triples? No player starting their career after WW II has more. Then, there's the guy's defense. Defense is half the game, and he's arguably the best to ever play the position.

Dude had 94.5 career WAR. He only played 18 seasons. If he plays 22 like Mays or Aaron, here are his career stats (and all-time rank) using his seasonal averages for his last four years, reduced by 20% for decline due to age:

10,909 AB
1,658 runs scored
3,493 hits (6th)
512 doubles
196 triples (9th)
285 home runs
1,543 RBI
5,252 total bases (15th)
.320 AVG

122 WAR (12th)

Willie Mays played 22 years, 2,992 games
Hank Aaron played 24 years, 3,298 games
Ty Cobb played 24 years, 3,034 games
Frank Robinson played 21 years 2,808 games
Stan Musial played 22 years, 3,026 games
Carl Yastrzemski played 23 years, 3,308 games

Roberto Clemente 2,433 games

A lot of the guys atop the leader boards on all-time metrics had the benefit of 400-500 more games played. Clemente died. Much of his greatest value as a player came towards the very end of his career. His game wasn't declining.

If Clemente had played 22 years, using the approximate numbers I calculated, here's how he compares against these supposedly "superior players".

WAR:
Mays 156.4
Cobb 151.0
Aaron 143.0
Musial 128.2
Clemente 122.0
Robinson 107.3
Yaz 96.4

Clemente's career WAR is comparable to Stan Musial when the games played are about the same.

Without actually projecting what Clemente might have done, let's break it down to what he did do. Games played per WAR point. (Games/WAR per BBA).

Same players:

Mays 19.13
Cobb 20.09
Aaron 23.06
Musial 23.60
Robinson 26.17
Yaz 34.31
Clemente 25.75

When total contribution is considered, Clemente's rate of WAR is better than Carl Yastrzemski and Frank Robinson. It's quite comparable to Stan Musial's rate.

Expressed another way, their average WAR per 162 games played:

Mays 8.47
Cobb 8.06
Aaron 7.03
Musial 6.86
Robinson 6.19
Yaz 4.72
Clemente 6.29

Some other greats:
Jackie Robinson 22.51 games played per WAR; 7.20 WAR per 162 games played.
Babe Ruth 15.44 G per WAR; 10.49 WAR per 162 games played.
Mel Ott 25.32 G per WAR; 6.40 WAR per 162 games played.

Again, WAR per 162 games played:
Mel Ott 6.40
Clemente 6.29

Mel Ott hit 511 career home runs. He led the league in home runs six times. Drove in 1,860 runs. And Roberto Clemente, who hit less than half his runs has almost the identical WAR/162 games played.


So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?

1959 Clemente PSA 8.5
 

Thinking about buying this...

Don’t like the title and print bottom left. Just me though.

Oh, and since Kaline was brought up...

Career WAR:
Clemente 94.5
Kaline 92.8

Games played:
Clemente 2,433
Kaline 2,834 (+401)

Games played per WAR Point:
Clemente 25.7
Kaline 30.54

WAR/162 games played:
Clemente 6.3
Kaline 5.3

Al Kaline hit .297 for his career, with 399 home runs. He walked 1,277 times to Clemente's 621. Yet, Clemente was worth 1 win more per season (per BBA) than Al Kaline.

Perhaps Clemente's total game is being undervalued. He doesn't have the sexy doubles and home run totals, therefore, he's not elite.

:rolleyes:

Centering is more than solid. I think it has a little knock for the light printers ink shadow bottom left around the pirate. But a fantastic card and one of my favorites because the yellow pops and the photo is great.

I will be bidding on it..