|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Honestly I think I would rank Mariano Rivera the greatest inning per inning pitcher of all time. If it's game 7, bottom of the 9th and I'm up by 1 run, give me my choice of any pitcher in history to pitch that inning and I'm going to pick Mariano Rivera every time. That says something.
|
I had forgotten that the Big Unit won four Cy Youngs in a row.
|
With the game on the line and a win is crucial, how can you go with anyone other than Bob Gibson? Too many collectors here never had a chance to see him pitch. Koufax was great, but in the BIG game, Gibson was the man.
My other 3: Mays, Aaron and Yogi. Berra was CLUTCH. Bench was great, Berra was better. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Top 4
Bonds
Mays Aaron Schmidt, Henderson or Morgan Pitchers Seaver Gibson Clemens Pedro |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Peter Why are you changing the subject matter ? Aren't we discussing living BB players ? ? If you want a conversation regarding Mickey, I welcome it. Let's include other teammates of Yogi's that were with him for a total of 14 - World Series............ DiMag, Maris, Rizzuto, Ford, Lopat, Don Larsen, Billy Martin and Johnny Mize. I've met all these guys....and, I've enjoyed some nice conversations with them. So, bring it on, guy. Incidentally, does any BB player besides Yogi have 10 - World Championship rings ? TED Z . |
Ted, my point was that it's hard (for me anyhow) to consider Yogi the greatest living baseball player of them all when, for most of his career, he was not even the best player on his team. Yogi was a .280 hitter with pretty good power and, in fairness, a great catcher. According to the era-adjusted stats on Baseball Reference, he ranks 6th among catchers. Let's just say for argument's sake his intangibles move him higher. I still don't see how you can say, objectively and not influenced by your personal feelings for him, that he was better than Mays, Aaron, or a host of others. They just aren't comparable in baseball terms.
|
Berra
I could see putting Berra in the top 4. He is either the best or second best catcher ever depending on your opinion of Johnny Bench. If you think catcher is the most important position on the diamond then Berra is not a reach.
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I vote Bonds, A-Rod, Pedro and Mays for my humble opinion.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Mays, bonds, Clemens, Miguel Cabrera.
|
Glad to see Frank Robinson getting several mentions....in my opinion (and they didn't ask me) one of the most under valued and under appreciated players of all time. Move over Bench, make room for Robby, put him in there with Hank, Willie, and Sandy....and Sandy is on the bubble, due to his short but outstanding career.
|
Greatest Four Living Baseball Players
I will go with Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson, and Koufax.
|
Mays, Bonds, Henderson, Bob Gibson
|
Just like in the first year of Gilligan's Island where the Professor and Mary Ann got no "props" it clearly is Mays n' Aaron (or Aaron n' Mays) "and the rest".
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
For all the talk about Koufax's amazing 1963-66 run, only one guy has ever led the major leagues in ERA four straight seasons:
Clayton Kershaw |
Quote:
Fun stat: Bob Gibson wasn't knocked out of a single game in 1968. Every time he got pulled, it was for a pinch hitter. |
Unexpected stat: Zack Greinke's 2015 Adjusted ERA+ is better than Gibson's 1968.
Not that I expect it to hold up, but it's a hell of an accomplishment to carry that past the All-Star break. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Career ERA: 2.72 (better than some HOFers, Sandy Koufax for example) Career record: 58-97 Seasons with a winning record: 0 |
Koufax
Quote:
In 1960 on the road 105 innings 3.00 era 8 hrs allowed 51 bbs 126 ks In 1960 at home 70 innings 5.27 era 12 hrs allowed 49 bbs 71 ks In 1961 on the road 123 innings 2.77 era 8 hrs allowed 45 bbs 124 ks In 1961 at home 132 innings 4.22 era 19 hrs allowed 51 bbs 145 ks In 1962 on road 81 innings 3.53 era 7 hrs allowed 32 bbs 98 ks In 1962 at home 102 innings 1.75 era 6 hrs allowed 25 bbs 118 ks For his career at Dodger Stadium he was 57-15 with a 1.37 era. For his career on the road after 1962 he was 54-19 with a 2.54 era. The point is that Koufax did not make a great jump forward in 1962 because he finally listened and took something off his fastball and threw his curve when he was behind in the count. All that happened was he went from a park (the Coliseum with a 250 foot left field line) that added 75 points a year to his era to one that took off 60 points a year. He was already very good or even great - look at his road numbers in 1960 and 1961. |
Did Drysdale have a similar trajectory? Or was the old park only tough for lefties?
Interesting stats, although causation is sort of difficult to prove. Any other lefties who dramatically improved after 62? |
Quote:
Sandy Koufax is not even in the top 5 for pitchers. |
Drysdale and Koufax
Peter - For Koufax the move to Dodger Stadium, the raising of the mound height and the redefinition of the strike zone in 1963 are all factors.
Drysdale's numbers did not improve as dramatically but he was far better in Dodger Stadium. His lowest era at Dodger Stadium was 1.37 and his highest was 2.60. On the road his best era was 2.39 and his worst was 4.65. Between 1963 and 1968 Dodger Stadium in particular was a very tough place to hit. The Dodgers scored 100 more runs on the road then at home virturally every season between 1963 and 1968. |
I will have to go back and read Bill James, who is very hip to park effects, to see what he says about Koufax. Given how close Marichal was to him statistically over the four year stretch, I wonder if they were really closer in ability than the conventional wisdom would have it.
|
Quote:
I agree. According to their stats, Pedro was more dominant. It's really not close. There was talk about a bump in Koufax numbers in 1962. Isn't that the year the Mets and Colt 45's joined the league. Maybe it's human nature to romanticize about the past. I know we are all major league scouts and since we saw "fill in the name" we can attest to their greatness. Or maybe statistics are all we have to make a true objective opinion. |
A Greatest Living Pitcher's record ought to include longevity
My greatest living list: Mays, Aaron, Frank Robinson, Berra and Bench.
As for pitchers, I would like to associate my remarks with Vintageclout. I believe a greatest living pitcher ought to have a substantial (including lengthy) body of work by such men as Seaver, Maddux and Randy Johnson. Quote:
"Never said he wasn't the best pitcher at his best....unquestionably the best peak value pitcher ever. But when iconic pitchers such as Seaver, Maddux, Johnson and Palmer, just to mention a few are performing at a superior level for 10-15 years, a 5 year pitcher cannot be rated ahead of them." |
As I am old enough to have seen Mays, Aaron and those of that era in the prime of their careers, I would have at least a half dozen players ahead of Bench. The list would start with Yogi Berra, who I consider the greatest catcher of all time. Frank Robinson, Seaver, Schmidt, Maddux come to mind immediately.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
and his home ERAs: 1.38, 0.85, 1.38, 1.52 Obviously, Koufax's road numbers for that stretch are still outstanding. But it's also obvious that he was a LOT more mortal on the road than at home. If he replicated his road performance at home in each of those years, he'd have led the league just once in that span instead of all four years. In 1964, he wouldn't have made the top 10. So, in conclusion, yeah, Dodgers Stadium helped Koufax's greatness. Quite a bit. Guys putting up 2.50, 2.60, 2.70 ERAs in that era were fairly common. And that's what Koufax did outside of Chavez Ravine. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Koufax vs Marichal
Quote:
There is an outfielder who was a lock first ballot HOFer and considered a legend of the game and if you doubled his road numbers his career totals would have looked like this: 3194 hits 430 homers .264 average .357 OBP and .422 SLG - Hall Worthy? Bill James addressed the Marichal - Koufax question "(I always wondered) whether Koufax's advantages were just park effects. Had Marichal pitched in Dodgers Stadium and Koufax in Candlestick, it is quite likely that Marichal would have had lower ERA's than Koufax, and Marichal might have won the Cy Young awards. However, since I have the Win Shares, I now realize that Koufax was in fact more valuable than Marichal in those key seasons." |
Mays
Aaron F Robinson Pedro Martinez Tom C |
Pedro > Sandy
To me it's not close. Tom C |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Yaz is another guy I've ragged on quite a bit on here, for this same reason. |
Quote:
Career-wise, at Dodger Stadium for Juan Marichal: 14-11, 2.36 ERA, 0.981 WHIP in 29 starts. And Candlestick: 122-58, 2.67 ERA Sandy Koufax at Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 1.37 ERA in 85 starts. And Candlestick: 7-7, 3.58 ERA in 16 starts So, what does that tell us? Not a whole heckuva lot. For 1962-66, I'd say Koufax was better, but the difference was small. The one thing Juan did than Koufax - he had seasons where he was actually better on the road than at home (like 1965). |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:46 AM. |