Agreed. I recently sold a hat on ebay, using the default images that my scanner produces. The seller thought they were getting a grey hat, when it was actually brown. I've found that I have to up the contrast and the red setting to get an accurate depiction. But even doing that, I've had hobby friends ask me questions that indicated to me that their monitor and my monitor weren't in sync. Also, there is at least one auction house that produces ridiculous card scans that look cartoonish - I'm sure it isn't on purpose, as it can't possibly help their sales.

I think that often, the sellers are just trying to depict their item accurately and end up making a mistake. And on the flip side of the coin, most of us have picked up things cheap because the scan did not represent the item fairly for the seller.

I know Steven. And when I wrote what I did I also know there are boundaries. I don't want to see a card be super bright and crisp...then get it and it's a dull turd. Otherwise, a little bit of brightness is ok.....just not a whole lot :). We are most certainly on the same page. Now about that low ball offer you made me. :mad: ....................:)

No worries Leon, you have my word, issues have been dealt with it and over. You already know me pretty well from our great discussions ;)

I appreciate you keeping it open as long as you did.

I like to let folks get it off their chest but at some point we just need to get back on track. I appreciate your and John's understanding. And I know John fairly well personally, from spending a lot of time with him at shows, and I say confidently, that you guys would be great friends in person. Just like you and I got off on the wrong foot, it all worked out fine....

Is there somebody in this thread actually throwing their mob connections around?

:confused:


This has been a very, very entertaining read. :D

Dave, I just got a call to go beat myself up.

You could be right, sometimes things are hard to translate through letters on a message board when one can't see how something is coming off. We both felt like the other was "calling out" I guess. Oh well, $hit happens when discussing a passion, it's not the first and won't be the last.

That I can actually believe :)

You've been a good sport Scotty.

I'm a ball buster and a pain in the royal ass to deal with on a daily basis.....ask my wife she'll tell you.

Thanks, Glenda.

I'm a 4th generation Gypsy. I often forget where I park my VW Van and have been known to trade old cardboard for shiny trinkets and costume jewelry.

My bullsh*t meter however, is often found on the left side of "Naive".

:(

There you go! See.....

What's my Mom gotta do with this?:)

The thread has now entered the kumbaya stage.

I suppose it depends if sellers are simply listing with the "unpredictability of buyers" in mind, as versus the "naivete of buyers". Conning, lying, misrepresenting and item is and does stink of "rip-off artists". This is rampant on eBay, and its only benefit should be to quickly announce to everyone to do their own research before making any purchase. Then again, as is discussed here, sometimes there is information that is purported that isn't able to be researched. This is where sellers prey on any buyers, not just buyers with a relatively low amount of knowledge.

As many have articulated here, if a seller is simply putting a price tag on an item that is 5x the "value", then this price choice is not indicative of an intent to rip off. The price choice is not what determines value, the purchase price is what carries that burden. That having been said, from my experience, the unpredictability of buyers does not have as much to do with people new to the hobby, but instead to buyers within the hobby who have endless checkbooks. I mean, look at the recent prices of T206 backs that have sold. I can't tell you how many times I have priced something that I deemed "very high", accompanied with a best offer option, only to have it bought without an offer ever being sent.

I would hope that many buyers new to the hobby are becoming A LOT more diligent, I would think that that is simple common sense. I've only been involved in the hobby for a few years, and my first T206 Cub wasn't purchased for 300$ because it was an "ANTIQUE BASEBALL CARD GEORGE BROWN CUBS T206 BV$6000"
If a grown man does no research on an item, and pays, in the eyes of knowledgeable hobbyists, 10x what the card's actual "value" is, then don't blame the seller.

I wrote most of this stuff up before reading through the posts of this thread, and don't want to get too off topic per Leon's request!


Anyways, more stuff that I had already written:

I suppose it depends on how one views the other side of the transactional spectrum, as I now noticed John mentioned. If a buyer offers 10$ for a 200$ card, what do you do? If it were me, I almost always would simply counter the offer, and say thank you for your interest. I've never been offended by an offer. Some buyers, which I suppose I understand, may just choose not to respond and ignore an offer --- which is certainly understandable in some cases --- or may choose to be offended and angered by the offer, as though it insults their intelligence. I say this because I know buyers will feel this when they see certain prices that sellers put on their cards. Heck, I do it naturally before I remind myself to not get offended by it. By the same token, when you don't win a certain card you were bidding on, don't you end up saying "Man, some idiot paid that much for that card?; Good for them!" The fact is that, though you're incredulous at the price, it did in fact sell for that price. I believe that's happened to me when buying T206 Cubs maybe 15 times in the last 2 weeks, heh!



Regarding scanner fraud, it's just fricking stupid. Greed plays such a role in people, and without trying to sound righteous, I simply don't understand it - as I know many of you don't either. It is infuriating, but it won't change. Ebay is focused on high prices, and they don't really care about the means at which this is accomplished, means that include shill bidding, fraud (as long as a buyer doesn't realize they were defrauded by a seller, at which point, if a buyer does realize it --- eBay will oh so joyfully come to their rescue! :rolleyes:), etc.

Perhaps it's now the exception and not the rule anymore, but there are plenty of sellers who provide fantastic scans and don't put any BS information, many of which sell or post on NET54.

Perhaps, for once, we should start a thread of GREAT sellers. What a novel idea!


Sorry if all that was too tangential, I wrote it down and figure it would be a waste of my time to erase it now!


As always, I enjoyed many of your posts! Other than yours Glenn ;) j/k, but I'm sure we'd get along in person or on the phone!

Oh, and I LOVED the Anchorman reference.


.

Kumbaya stage with a long epilogue written by someone arriving late to the party because he was teaching music to a bunch of elementary kids. Hahaha... sorry everyone!

Nate, ironically our 1st-grade music teacher always had us sing 'Kumbaya' - every week for a year.

All's well that ends well. As anyone who's ever in a dispute with me will remind everyone, I've had some sort of argument with anyone who's opinionated on this board, but any grudges being held are never on my end. It's just the internet.

Well said Scott. I think, for the most part, many of the disagreements would end up sounding a lot like common ground if in person, with a glass of whiskey in each person's hand. :D

It depends on what kind of issues you're buying/selling. I've recieved faded OJs in the mail that looked great in the scan... These sellers/AHs know exactly what they're doing and why.

-Matt

I've had at least three phone conversations this year with people who were either in the midst of a fight with another board member, or who I was talking with because of something similar involving the two of us. In all cases we agreed that what you said above was true.

Which is really weird, given that you hadn't said it yet :confused:

Spoken like a true elementary school music teacher............ :D (I was going to use the "wink" smilie, but after seeing it so many times in this thread, I'm not sure what it means anymore).

,

Haha, though my liquor cabinet may suggest otherwise, I have whiskey (scotch), or some type of alcoholic beverage, about once every 2 weeks or so. Every now and then, I might put together a 3 day drink streak, but I doubt I'll ever approach Joe D.'s record.

.

Pretty much. :) At least if you're going to commit a fraud try to be a little less obvious and put more effort into it. Being dishonest and lazy is worse than just being dishonest.

I like this.

More Scams....
 

Speaking of frauds, or in this case potential fraud. I just don't get it. You know this will be used for some potential scam.....:mad::mad::mad:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honus-Wagner...p2047675.l2557

I just don't understand... This will probably be used to deceive some poor sap...
It's even in a psa/sgc hybrid China case. They are promoting this "reprint" to be a great alternative to the real thing. Sure, whatever that's fine. The buyers for this? Probably scammers...

My question is why put it in a fake holder? It's advertised as a reprint but I believe the underlying purpose of these particular cards is to screw someone over... Just makes me mad.

I don't know if I'm overreacting because I've been scammed before soooo... All I know is it is a very heartbreaking experience which even led me to stop collecting. I just don't want someone to go through something like that. Luckily, I recovered ( even though it was 10 years later).

Forgive me for the venting...

Colby,

At first blush, these "cards" seem (to me, at least) to come right from a fraudster's toolbox, complete with suspect holders. Admittedly, I did not drill down into the fine details; however, completely agree with your point.

These things will wind up being part of a scam someday.

Best Regards,

Eric

Well all in all, it saddens me. I just hate the thought of potential new baseball card enthusiasts could be turned off after realizing they got scammed. Things like this just kills the hobby and new hobbyists...

I mean if you are any what knowledgeable of the hobby then you will know that these are fake but what about the newbies who know nothing but always wanted to buy a card like this then finally got the chance?

Probably my favorite quote of month. Maybe year.

Just a Newby with a few personal thoughts
 

Keith here. When I began expanding my (non) existent collection last year I became acutely aware of my inability to do a decent job of seeing true card quality. I quickly became aware of the ebay habit of misrepresentation through poor photo quality, omitting backs, poor lighting, tilted photos, and scans that mislead. In fact, I found I am terrible with a scanner when attempting to get true representations of my cards I wanted to post to the SGC Registry. Besides blurring (I use a lower end HP) I found creases had a tendency to disappear. My lack of confidence and unwillingness to mislead has actually stopped me from selling cards, for both the reason of possibly misleading someone and also limiting the potential sale price of a particular card. As to my ability to properly price a card, well..unh.. that's the rub, I guess.

Another thought. Last year I made an offer on a BIN, and after several back and forths, we came within fifty bucks on a 1600 card. The last time I looked the card as listed at the same BIN, has to be over 7 months now. Seems to me the seller could have turned over the money and reinvested in another piece of profitable merchandise. Guess this was my first taste of a seller with a different level of motivation than myself, or quite possibly a better undersanding of the card's value.

As for misleading and fraudulent sellers, scans of graded cards are just that; scans of graded cards. Any verbiage from the seller is just words. But what do I know, it can be scary buying a higher end t201 or t206. These particular examples leading into this thread are out of my league, so I sit, watch, listen, think. Keep it coming, guys, much appreciated.

Colby,

Agreed...it maddens the hell out of seasoned hobbyists, too.

I have been burned exactly twice in the 30 or so total years I have participated in this hobby. One time was with a counterfeit in the 1990's and I recently wound up with a trimmed card. The particular examples I got stuck with are unimportant for this discussion; however, both transactions left me feeling less than happy about the state of affairs this hobby faces.

Again, I agree...while I may not get duped on the Wagner and Plank that initiated our exchange, there are newcomers to our hobby that would be...and that is a net loss for baseball card collecting, as a whole. After all, without the infusion of new, young, enthusiastic collectors, the continuity of the hobby is in jeopardy.

I appreciate your opinions on the subject and hope this finds you well.

Best Regards,

Eric

I agree that there is too much misrepresentation of the quality of cards.

At this point I'm hesitant about paying more than 20 bucks for a card on ebay that hasn't been graded.

(yes, grading may be a false sense of security, but i haven't reached that realization yet)

I am 22 and I RARELY meet a "vintage" collector my age, like finding a NR-MT t206 Ty Cobb green background in an attic in Alaska (yes so rare that I referenced the state of Alaska), it just doesn't happen. I just think if someone is contemplating in joining our hobby and finds out its filled with an overwhelming amount of frauds then wouldn't that make he/she not want to pursue it? I mean if it was me joining a new hobby and then found out almost every corner I turned someone was trying to scam me, or some dealer/seller was selling their card to me at an absurd price I would not want to pursue it as well.

Vice-versa, there is so much info on the web that can inform a newbie when trying to buy cards but doesn't it disappoint you when you find out the local card shop is selling cards at prices that are absurd (like they're trying to rip you off)? Also, doesn't it suck doing research and finding out the PSA holders can be cracked open then replaced with fakes? I mean there are SO MANY THINGS YOU NEED TO BE AWARE OF....It just seems like that the vintage side of the hobby only allows the most AVID and DETERMINED baseball newbies to join... This is just my opinion. Please someone tell me its not that bad. I've been back in the hobby for only a year and I hope I'm wrong. So someone please correct me.

I'm aware of two board members who are younger then you. That's about it that I'm aware of though.

Colby,

On behalf of Net54, please accept my sincerest best wishes to you on your journey. Collecting baseball cards is something that all of us share as a common passion.

From my limited and (admittedly stunted) perspective, it seems as though you may have just a bit of angst...and I wonder why this is. I realize that this hobby is fraught with peril; however, there does exist a tremendous upside.

For example, there is this board...which is amazing in both the depth and breadth of the knowledge shared here.

Although newbies are subjected to "hazing" on occasion...if polite, well-mannered, and generally more interested in the hobby than their own self-promotion...they are generally welcomed.

Yes, fraud is prevalent in this hobby. However, this board can sniff it out quicker than a seasoned bloodhound...and often do. In fact, the repercussions of a card being, "outed" as a fake on this board usually lead to a, "death knell" for eBay auctions.

As Leon would say, please pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable. You have landed at a great site...and all of us welcome you. Please enjoy your stay.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric,

I have no angst, but just a disconcerning feeling about the future of the vintage baseball world. This cite and Leon have welcomed me with open arms and I am more than grateful for that. I have a passion for baseball just as much or more than the members of this cite. I look for no upside when collecting. I wish to never sell my collection. I only hope to pass it down for generations. I just love the history and story behind each card. My grandfather got me hooked on collecting and his favorite player was Mickey Mantle. His passion for baseball has resonated through me. The only reason I even heard about "the Mick" was because of the stories he told me as a child. Today, Mickey Mantle is my favorite player. Anyways, I wish the best for the hobby of course. I also think joining this website was the best thing I ever did. The collecting vintage card world at first seems so vast and dark. When I joined Net54 I felt a lot more at ease and many here have been so unbelievably helpful. The darkness finally turned to light. Since ive joined I've literally spent a few hours reading threads each day. So much information and so little time. All in all, my angst is caused by the deception and fraud I have gone through. Baseball is my passion and I got turned off from collecting vintage when I was scammed. I just truly wish no one will go through something like that. Especially a novice collector. So when seeing fraudulent auctions just makes me mad because of the repercussions it can potentially cause. Once again, sorry for the vent but thank you to all on this board for helping me through my collecting journey...

-Colby

From my limited experience, if you're looking to make sure you don't get ripped off, the B/S/T forum here is a safe place. From my (again, limited) experience, few here are willing to sacrifice their reputation to rip you off for a hundred bucks. My dealings here have all been positive.

But as always, be careful out there.

Hi Colby-

I think there will always be people who will try to take advantage of someone if they have the chance. Not just in this hobby, but in life. It sucks, but there's ways to avoid it. Some people will risk their reputation over a couple of bucks-it's pathetic but true.

I've never been burned on Net54, and have made some great contacts and usually try to stay buying from people I've had good dealings with. It's always good to have a few raw cards of whatever you collect so you can really get to know them-you will see that it makes it easier after awhile to notice something that "doesn't look right".

And finally, there's many people on this board who are willing to help if you have questions before you pull the trigger on something- don't be afraid to ask for help. Many decent board members with a ton of knowledge who will help a fellow collector. If I can ever help, feel free to contact me (I'm no expert, but if I don't know the answer I may be able to point you in the right direction).

Don't let scam artists discourage you from enjoying the hobby. They usually get outed and squashed like bugs. :D

Sincerely, Clayton

Define "rip you off." There are plenty of board members who are happy to buy a card on eBay for $1000 and list it on the BST for $4000 three days later -- right after posting it on the pickups thread as their "holy grail."

Good point Jeff. As an example, several years ago I was able to get an E136 Home Run Kisses card that is some kind of pre-production card or test card. It is on completely white and very thin stock. It was several thousand dollars. It got graded fine and I know the provenance of it and several experts agree it is what it is. I posted it on the board as a new pick up. Next thing I know a board member, who I know very well, tells me he has a 1911 Zeenut the same way and he wants $1500 for it. I tell him, well, I dunno, why don't you send it to me and let me check it out. If it's good and like you say, then we can talk price but the price quoted isn't out of line for what it supposedly is. I got it. It was a very regular Zeenut that was just a little light from exposure to the elements. I had plenty just like it. He said, ok....how about $15.....so I bought it. Caveat emptor.
While there are almost no absolute thefts from the BST you can still get taken advantage of. The very large majority of collectors here won't do that but there are almost 4000 members now so there is a bit of almost everything. If I can ever help anyone, especially our younger collectors, please PM me.....best regards

Leon, that is a hilarious story! $15! That poor seller probably had to think about getting a job. How awful!

You noticed that too huh?.....;)

Goes back to the original point...just more and more "sellers" lately who think NOBODY else follows what things sell for on Ebay or in other auctions :rolleyes:

Just encountered another douchebag last night trying to pull the same bull$hit with me, it's getting worse and worse it seems with every passing day. There's definitely a lot of really great and legit sellers here, but then the "others"......not so much.

If u dont want to get ripped off...educate yourself...its as simple as that! Much easier to do these days than 20+ yrs ago.

Glenn, no offense, but there's no need to curse in every post, it actually belittles a lot of the valid points you make. I like to think of this place as the "gentleman's forum", and I think a lot of others do too. I curse a lot in real life myself, but I try to keep it to a minimum on here.

Thanks Eric, I agree. I PM'd another board member about his constant cursing last night...it is in another forum on the board, not this main page. A few minor cuss words isn't a big deal but if it gets to be too much then that isn't a good thing. And no F bombs or more vulgar language will be tolerated at all. I like to think that I can let my 16 yr old daughter read the board and me not be worried about it.

Eric, not making excuses, and Glenn and I are on good terms, but some of the recent posts by somewhat newer guys got me thinking about the cursing.

I live in Seattle, where the 'F' bomb is just another word to anyone under 30. They fling it without hesitation, anywhere they happen to be, without regard to anyone around them. It might slightly offend super-old people who weren't born and bred in the PacNW, but natives and anyone in their 50's or younger barely seem to notice. And of course, any of the 'lesser' curse words are just standard stuff for younger people, regardless of where they are from. There are exceptions, but they are rare (my kids, for instance).

I don't know about the East coast, but in the South the situation was different. Even the cruder businessmen types would generally keep that stuff within their smaller groups - not fling it around when talking with baristas, etc. Old people would be horrified, younger people might wince a bit. The only exception, really, was drunks, but they could be avoided in public.

Those are extremes - I don't know what it's like in California or Florida; the midwesterners certainly have cleaner mouths but I don't know - perhaps that is changing?

So, given that it's totally acceptable to be as foul as you want in some parts of the country, in musical lyrics, radio talk-show hosts, etc., what's okay in an internet forum? Basically, my thinking is that it's probably perfectly acceptable in so many forums, that there's no longer such a thing as a 'gentlemen's forum', or at least there won't be in the near future. The progress of technology has allowed us to dispense with 'watching our language' - there are no bars of internet soap.

No ill-will toward Glenn with this post - I'm sure he just uses those words to emphasize his points. I'm just curious how others feel about this. It would be interesting to get thoughts from various parts of the country.

Also, I use 'douchebag' frequently - in my opinion it applies to many on the internet, and doesn't seem like too offensive of a word.

I totally get what you're saying Scott, like I said, I curse a lot in "real life" myself. I too would like others' opinions on it. Times are always-a-changing.

Very well put Scott. I, and the other mods, wouldn't want this place to be sterile. And when I am around my own friends I admit to using the F bomb frequently. But I wouldn't dare do it around my little girl, her friends or most adults in the area of Texas I live in. And as long as there is an edit feature on this board, and I get to try to keep it civil, this will mostly be the forum Eric is speaking of....with all of our little spats and arguments in between. We don't need, or want, potty mouths on the forum. It's that simple. Anyone that doesn't like it is welcome to their opinion. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh? :o

I trust that you're not this sensitive in every day affairs? There's more cursing on women's forums than I've ever done here. So if the word bull$hit is just way too offending, maybe being locked in a bubble and avoiding people in public and over the Internet is a better option. Must be another overly sensitive liberal :rolleyes:

How about we ban cursing now? Try going over to Europe and bringing that overly sensitive American attitude.....they'll laugh.

I've been to Europe plenty of times - spent a lot of time in cruder areas (actually sought them out sometimes) in Paris, Dublin, Munich - basically everywhere. Perhaps things have changed, but while they definitely were more liberal regarding nudity, and they do laugh at us for plenty of other reasons, I didn't hear more cursing. We kind of have a stranglehold on that in many parts of the U.S.

And no one would argue with you that cursing is the way many people choose to emphasize their points on the internet, but if you can win people over to your views without it, you are even more impressive.

Typical backward Southerners, not embracing unbridled swearing on all fronts. What will they think of next, going to church and closing their chicken restaurants on Sunday?