Unfortunately, there is the "friends" with high feedback buddy system going on also. I've had "friends" ask me to "bump" up a bid on an auction. I've only done it a couple of times because I figured if I won it at the price that was bid I could turn around and sell it for a profit, otherwise I've told these "friends" that I wouldn't do it. My ebay feedback is clean (500+) and the positive feedbacks (no negs, neutrals) makes it look even better. I've also have had "friends" ask me to bump up their bids in major auction house auctions. Same rule applies, if it looks like I could turn a tidy profit at the bid then I'd do it, otherwise, no way.

My guess is there are people that will give their "friends" a boost even if it looks like the bidding may be topped out. I'm just not wired that way. I don't feel it's right to bump somehting that, IMO, may already have hit its peak.

I'm not saying this is the rule but it wouldn't surprise me if this happened more often that most people suspect.

But that is just your opinion that it is safer to buy premium cards on eBay. A lot of people view eBay as being far less safe than an auction house because the number of people looking to rip you off or scam you on eBay is seemingly neverending. If I was looking to buy a $20,000 card like the Nolan Ryan card you listed or even a $5,000 card like the Robin Yount example you listed, I wouldn't feel comfortable at all buying off eBay.

I still don't get how it is harder for shills to inflate the price of a card on eBay if someone really wants to do that. Like I said earlier, the only shills you are going to "catch" are either the really stupid or the really lazy.

Eddie, it's not just my opinion, it's a fact.

AHs have blind bidding with NO buyer protection. You can get bid up and you'd have no idea ... you can have an item delivered not as described (or not at all) and you have no recourse. Whereas on ebay you have buyer (and seller) protection.

Of course someone can try and inflate a price on ebay, but at least there are systems there that give you a chance in tracking down what's going on ... with AHs you have none such ability ... you are simply helpless.

It's just easier to shill via AHs than it is on ebay. If you don't mind taking that chance that's your prerogative, but there are countless examples of premium cards taking hits on ebay that were bought via AH. I myself have picked up some items in such a way.

Ultimately it's just common sense, information is power and with AHs you have none of it.

I am not trying to be argumentative, because it is apparent our basic opinions are very different. But an auction house that doesn't deliver cards people have paid for or consistently misrepresents what people are buying (i.e. shipping reprints depicted as real cards or consistently selling phony items like a Coaches Corner) will either go out of business like Mastro did or get a reputation as a place to avoid.

You keep talking in absolutes that the reason the cards you have cited sold for more at auction houses than eBay is because of shilling at the auction houses. I don't know the right answer -- and no one does -- but it seems just as viable to me that auction house prices are higher because each product is put in front of a greater number of potential buyers and a lot of people just don't want to deal with the scammers and rip off artists that so heavily populate eBay.

Then again you might consider that anyone paying a premium for PSA 9 and PSA 10 Topps cards has more money than sense. Bar graphs, sales history diagrams and conspiracy theories aside, you buy a bubble and ...well, sometimes they go poof. Ask the Dutch about tulips. I also think some in the hobby now don't recognize the difference between reputible auction houses and e-bay.

Paul, I run the software for most of the major sports auction companies and I can say that after reading all of your posts that you don't know what you are talking about. None of the companies that use my software can see the max bids therefore they cannot shill or bid up items.

Also, If you think that it is safer to bid on eBay, where you do not know whom you are buying from, than an auction company, then you are not being very truthful. Most of the auction house DO accept returns where and when appropriate.

You cannot compare eBay prices to AH prices as well as well, they operate differently and most of the big bidders will never bid in eBay and place their trust in knowing who they are bidding with at the AH's. not to mention that your example does not take into consideration that the person who is selling the item is no longer bidding on the item so you lose one of the competing bidders that drove the price to the level that it sold at.

Those are the facts.

Dont let facts get in the way of a good paranoid idea!! :)

I would also add that an auction house auction may also get more bids over an eBay auction due to the format. In an auction house auction, the bidders have the ability to outbid each other during extended bidding. Often times, this creates a more competitive atmosphere in which bidders attempt to outbid the next guy to win the card. Nobody wants to be outbid, and extended bidding allows for a wallet measuring contest. ;) On eBay, it ends at a certain time and that's it.

Also, while it may be easier to transparently shill an auction house auction, it's also more risky. In an auction house auction, you cannot retract a bid, and once you bid you must pay (no simply backing out like on eBay, and no bidding an auction up only to retract your bid like on eBay). A winning shill bid in an auction house auction also has to pay BP, so it's more risk in that sense also.

I should believe you why?

And I didn't say it was the AHs themselves doing the shilling (though anything is possible) so get your facts straight.

Finally, AHs make their own rules, rules that support their interests first and foremost. On ebay, sellers have to all play by ebay's rules, rules that actually protect people on both sides of the deal. Maybe I can return an item with an AH if its NAD? Maybe?! Are you serious? You pay with check, MO or wire transfer for a reason with AHs ... it's so the buyer has zero leverage if something goes wrong.


CW,

All you need to make an AH account is a credit card. So you can shill as much as you want during a run of auctions, not pay for anything, and the worst that happens is your account is blocked.

Next auction just sign up with a new CC or get your friend to.


The point of transparency is to protect the buyer during the auction, and give everyone useful information after.

I know it strikes a nerve to dare challenge an institution that many have bought into and others have spent ludicrous amounts of money in. But the reality is that many premium cards have been bought from AHs only to take a dive when sold elsewhere ... there are countless examples and I have provided a few. So for those who have dropped serious cash in an AH setting, you've done so in an arena where you may have been shilled and you will never know - that's why there isn't as much confidence in the prices of cards that are acquired this way - and one of the reasons they sell for less when not in the same AH setting.

There are 2 major issues with AHs:

1. Transparency

2. Leverage

Both need to be addressed and fixed for the good of the hobby.

Good luck to all those that challenge Paul's logic. One cannot have a rational conversation with another that thinks that their opinion is fact because they think it true.

Most of us that have been in the hobby for decades must be wrong for not lining up on the side of Paul's "facts" and for even suggesting that Paul's distaste for auction houses clouds his judgement and ability to accept a contrary viewpoint. Anyone that disagrees, therefore, is either an idiot or part of the machine that doesn't want to change the status quo.

I guess all of the notes, public and private sales records, auction databases and personal experiences that I and many others have assembled over the years are now worthless...

Thank you Paul for pointing out that so many of us in the hobby are lemmings just following blindly and throwing our money away. I feel so used...

There are 2 major issues with AHs:

1. Most of them have large bidder lists

2. Most of those bidder lists include people who are willing to pay more than me for the items I want

Jeff

Speaking of being priced out, I remember years back when a non-collector friend visiting from out of town was looking through my Barry Halpler auction catalogs and gasping at astoundingly high sell prices. I informed him he was looking at the minimum bids.

http://simpleauctionsite.com/contact.htmlAnd that differs from eBay how?

Advance apologies for talking about non-vintage cards...

There is a running thread on freedomcardboard about a *ahem* gentleman who is always "winning" low numbered black-bordered parallels of the base Topps sets. He sets snipes and wins whatever cards come up for auction, but never pays for them. As each ID gets NARUed, he creates a new account using a slight variation of his first and last name - he has done this dozens of times. From what I can see, when eBay bans an account they also ban the IP address. All a savvy and nefarious douchebag has to do is use a proxy server and a new first/last name to set up a new account.

edit: I found a post in which he claimed to have set up over 500 different accounts over the years.

Point being, Paul can talk long and hard about the semi-transparency of eBay, but if someone wants to tamper with an auction, there is NOTHING that can be done about it.

Paul, I won't deny that shill bidding or "safety bids" do occur at AHs. I also feel that you have every right to state your case and warn others about these happenings within our hobby. I hope you realize, though, that there are factors *other* than shill bidding that allow AHs to realize higher prices on items. I think you might take a little too much heat on this issue because you are so steadfast and stubborn. Ultimately, I think you have good intentions, as I hope others realize.


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Thanks for your thoughtful comments Chuck. I definitely realize that there are many things at play ... with everything really.

I think most people realize that I have good intentions, and that I've given them something important to think about, so that they can better protect themselves knowing better what they're getting involved with.

I've clearly touched on a nerve with the knee-jerk responses some have given ... almost in utter awe that I'd dare question their beloved AHs.

Unfortunately there will always be a few very noisy people who can't seem to handle the idea that they may have been duped, so they lash out at the informer instead of thinking about things ... that's just human nature, they just can't help themselves.

There are also those who are heavily vested in these AHs, so I have no doubt that they'll only change they're way of operating when they are forced to do so, or when it makes financial sense to them.

I'm not surprised by anything that's gone on with any of this, it's just evolution, it takes a long time usually, and it requires people to think and act differently.

Or, they might simply disagree with you. :)

Or maybe they have a better idea of how an AH runs since they have more experience using them than you do?

When comparing an apple to an orange, I think it prudent to know more than just something about fruits before postulating an end-all assumption and assigning it the term "fact."

No one, myself included, has disagreed that there are issues with AH's just as there are with eBay and any other auction venue. However, anytime someone mentions anything OTHER than that which agrees or confirms Paul's assumption, they are the evil doers, too old school, have a stake in AH's or some other ill-informed descriptor to attempt to discredit the logical and contrary opinion. Or, in most cases, contrary opinions are ignored or mocked with some sort of inflammatory aside to dismiss them.

Scott, I think it is because of a lack of "transparency" on our part.....lol

Paul,

It's not true that all you need is a credit card to register at an AH, some are like that, but not all. When I registered for Lew Lipsets auction I filled out the forms and gave my hobby references. After all that he still called me and asked about me and what I saw in his auction that I liked. After he felt comfortable, he registered me.

That goes leaps and bounds exponentially over anything eBay will ever do. They don't care or have the time to care.

I would love to see the major AHs start adopting this process. That would be a small step in the right direction IMO. Making it more serious business to get an account is definitely something that would deter nefarious behavior.

But having a fail-safe should something go wrong is equally important, and from what I've seen AHs have none of the sort ... just look at their accepted forms of payment and that says it all.

Don't you think that Ebay accepting paypal only is more about the fact of them owning paypal than it is protection for the buyers? They used to allow you to pay for Ebay items with a check or money order........until they bought paypal.......and I would be interested to hear your thoughts about Ebay is safer if one person can open up to 500 accounts with them. I personally know people that have been kicked off of Ebay multiple times for not paying for items or not sending items and they simply just open another account.......What difference does transparency make when all of the bids coming in from different accounts could really be the same person?

Good God. Does the possibility NOT exist that folks really have carefully considered your POV and have made an informed decision to reject it? Or is the only right answer, "you're absolutely right, Paul."? What will it take to get you to STFU about this? We get it already: eBay = sorta good; auction houses = very bad. Full transparency = auction utopia; continued bidder privacy = somebody's gettin' screwed.

The more you continue to beat this poor horse and condescendingly belittle those who dare to hold an opposite opinion/belief, the more you prove that you are nothing more than a contrarian ass who thinks he's smarter than anyone else.

For the record, I have never invested a penny in any auction house. If I had the chops to do so, I would solicit testimonials from people I trust and ask questions of the house I plan to do business with. I believe that's the responsible thing to do, especially given the high dollar cards/lots that typify an AHs inventory. I would feel far more comfortable with that than taking my chances with "semi-transparency" that can only researched after an auction closes. As I said earlier, it is way too easy to register multiple accounts on eBay and screw with the auction process... far easier than I believe it would be with an AH.

+1

Quote:
What will it take to get you to STFU about this?

+2

Very interesting side note:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/ar...mous.html?_r=0

I think it would be great if seller names had to be listed with their items. Just like buyers names should be listed with their bids.

Here's hoping the ruling is upheld!

Here's hoping the ruling is upheld!


yeah...cause we wouldn't want you to get shilled on those 1979 Topps psa 10's from all the major NY auction houses.

come to think of it, I think it's a grand idea too, this way all the reputible houses will stop having a presence in NY (like Heritage and their little boutique storefront)...and I can stop paying the mandatory 8.5% tax along with my 20% buyer penalty. Of course I'll still square up with the state annually as I always do.

Paul, So let me ask this. If ebay is more transparent, and these people can be outed (buyers or sellers), what is their actual punishment? So far it seems that they are just "banned" but can obviously open a new account and start the practice again. Apparently many times over from some of the anecdotal evidence already presented. Has anyone on ebay ever been prosecuted for this type of activity? (a sincere, and just curious, question)

If not, then why does it matter how much more transparent ebay is if nothing is really being done about it? We already have a number of cases where an AH was prosecuted for this type of activity, so while they may not be as "transparent" you think they should be, they seem to be held to a higher standard, thus making them more reliable in many collectors' eyes.

As I've said before, transparency, while the only real solution, is only a deterrent. It takes vigilance by the community to really make a change, and that can only happen when they are allowed to see what is going on.

Getting outed for nefarious activities is one reason why certain collectors and scam artists will think twice about doing bad things, as are other repercussions.

It's all about adapting to the current threats and trying to foresee the future ones. Those who are defeatist and say "what's the point?" are of no help here, same goes for the small minded babies (whose comments I fortunately don't have to read thanks to the lovely ignore feature!) who throw their insults because they have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. Ironic that these are the same people who would benefit from AHs changing the ways they operate to make things safer and better for the hobby.

The very people you so smugly ignore are among those who have been attempting to have a rational conversation with you. The biting comments and sarcasm come after some (me included) become exasperated when you so obstinately refuse to accept that others simply don't agree with you.

There has never been a doubt in my mind that you are honestly trying to make the hobby better. However, when you refuse to accept that others may have taken an honest look at your ideas and made an educated decision to stay their own course, you set yourself up for ridicule.

Sadly, the only way you'll be able read my comments are if someone you haven't blacklisted quotes me in entirety. If you hadn't done so you would understand that I (and others) really are after the same thing - a hobby free from greed, corruption and thievery. And once again, I have never invested in any auction house so I have no financial dog in this fight you're involved in.

So my question still stands Has anyone on ebay ever been prosecuted for this type of activity? It is not a defeatist attitude to say "what's the point" if little is being done to those that are caught. It's simply a point to question the effectiveness of ebay's "transparency".

If transparency is a "deterrent", I would argue so is prosecution. And to a greater extent than simply being "banned" one day to come back another. Some AH have been prosecuted. Has anyone on ebay? Inquiring minds want to know.

I accidentally responded to the wrong post so deleted my post and am responding the same message here....

Well said. He can't blacklist me so he will see your statement. I too think Paul (Hi Paul) has great intentions. I was at lunch with a major auction house executive today discussing this thread. Everyone agrees the intent is a great one. That being said most people, and myself, disagree with Paul for various reasons, none of which are personal. And to think Ebay is safer than an auction house is to bid in means you don't really know the hobby that well. And to date I have never seen a suspected shill situation at an auction house with 79-80 Topps cards.

Imagine being a horrible shiller and getting stuck with a $2k Paul Molitor LOL LOL LOL

Just for full transparency:

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5149/lsu2.jpg

thank God those shorts aren't transparent

Leon,

ebay provides systems that AHs can and should try to mimic.

The reason why AHs don't is because they wouldn't make as much money if they did.

The reason why ebay does is because they know the general public wouldn't stand for the kind of vulnerable position that AHs put their buyers in, as they do with blind bidding and payment without protection.

There's clearly no perfect system, there are simply things people can do to try and make the situation better. I hope that AHs start doing these things, and frankly think they will eventually be forced to as recent rulings have indicated.

It's for the good of the hobby.

For someone who is so vocal about the complaints, I have yet to see any suggestions how to make it better.

Shilling will never be stopped. No AH can stop a friend/relative from bidding on an item...maybe the friend/relative really wants it. Maybe they are shilling. No way to prove it and no way to stop it.

Ebay is a place where both buyers and sellers can do underhanded things with auctions. Unless ebay changes rules, nothing can be done about that either.

I can absolutely see the appeal of AH over ebay. At least with the AH you can decide if you want to trust them or not. From there, you decide if you wan to do business or not. With ebay, you are dealing with a lot of unknown sellers and relying on a feedback which is probably not overly accurate anyway.

Edited based on pm with leon. Let me be clear about something. Nowhere was I accusing the op of dishonesty. Rather, I was citing a portion of geordie's comment above where he believed op intends to make the hobby better. In my opinion, selling an empty box, wrappers and the gum when he knows full well what is likely to become of them is NOT making the industry better.

WOW! :eek:

I can understand the box and even the wrappers, but the gum too? Why would he list the gum? Sure sounds like a resealer's dream lot. I guess the only thing missing are the EX commons.

i would need a lot more evidence than that to accuse the OP of dishonesty. So he has a novelty item from a year he obviously specializes in.

That's pretty sad. I guess one type of dishonesty or scam in the hobby is OK, but others aren't. The seller may claim that selling the gum, box, and wrappers, in and of itself, is not unethical. However, the seller has to know that the buyer's intentions will only lead to another collector being scammed with a resealed pack (from his own beloved set, no less!). How pathetic. All for a few bucks. Simply no excuse.

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Peter, you need to re-read the previous two posts. Nobody accused the OP of dishonesty.

Novelty item? There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to sell 35 year old gum (the box and wrappers I can understand). To me, that only serves one purpose - for re-sealing wax packs. If you can think of another reason someone would purchase 35 year old gum, please let me know.

David he just deleted it, but I certainly interpreted this as such an accusation, why else the juxtaposition?

Originally Posted by TNP777

There has never been a doubt in my mind that you are honestly trying to make the hobby better.


Having any doubts about the OP now? OP is plenty peeved about AHs and dishonesty in the hobby. Apparently he has no trouble selling resealing kits for 1978 Topps.

Peter, I think the post was made to point out the hypocrisy of the OP (not his dishonestly). No, he hasn’t done anything dishonest, but his auction certainly allowed for the potential. It’s very hypocritical to complain about potential auction house schilling when he’s listing a potential wax reseaing kit. I think most would agree.

The gum IS a collectable!http://blog.justcollect.com/baseball...eball-wrapper/

I deleted it based on a pm with Leon where I either had to edit or show my name. I stand by what I said, and my name is there anyway which I am fine with.

Again, I did not accuse Paul of dishonesty. I did make the claim that selling these items is not helpful for the industry and that he is not making the industry better by doing so.

The same buyer, redsignal2013, bought all these lots from the OP. What would anybody possibly do with all those wrappers, boxes and gum? Hmmm...

Redsignal2013, a very appropriate username. I'm seeing a lot of red signals right now.

Shilling
 

Is way easier on eBay. No pesky buyers premiums to get in the way. Also can always create accounts bidders are not screened to near the level they generally are by an auction house.

BBG Silence
 

Love how BBG suddenly appears back on CU a few minutes before all the posts and a new thread are removed. Something to hide Paul? Not that it really matters. No one trusted you any way.