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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>What do you think? Is the entire Mexican society barbaric?<br /><br />It would be, if you were right in your assertion that there is no opposition down there, or at least you have never heard of any.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/features/bull2.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/features/bull2.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>So along with cruelty to animals I see reading comprehension is also a problem for you.<br /><br />If you can find a post where I stated you were "attacking Leon" I will generate some posts on your message board so you can get a little traffic over there.

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>LONG LIVE TED NUGENT !!!<br /><br />...some of you guys/gals probably wouldnt like one of his best songs..."dog eat dog"...great song

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Lets be totally correct. You stole from me for 6 months then gave it back..That was noble of you...And in between you gave me a negative on ebay for no reason then got it removed. That was real nice of you too...warmest regards

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Hunting and fishing: I am also strongly opposed to "slob hunters" as we call them here in Michigan. The ones that roll out for the first time of the season on the 15th of every November to drink beer, throw out piles of sugar beets, and try to shoot a deer so they can show off the big rack to their friends. They don't know the first thing about deer, woods, hunting or anything else. I hold them in the same low regard as anyone else that wants to harm an animal for such an empty purpose. <br /><br />I have a rule of thumb when it comes to hunting and fishing methods: The more likely it is that I could be successful at it, the less I respect it. Bait piles with video cameras? Fenced in hunting areas with released animals? Stocked trout ponds? No respect. Standing on a 1-foot square tree stand at 30 feet with a compound bow for 8 hours straight without moving or making a sound, and in exactly the right tree that has been selected by spending 8 or 10 weekends quietly sitting in the woods observing deer paths and movements? I tend to respect that more. <br /><br />So Scott - you are part right. To the extent that hunting and fishing are a big party to some that hope to shoot a deer when they've never been in the woods before - they just want to shoot it - yes, that's as reprehensible as the rest of it.<br /><br />And is the entire society of Mexcio barbaric because of they have bullfights in Mexico? Well no. No more than the entire society of the US is barbaric because we have dogfights and cockfights here. <br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>But Joann, most of us do not support dog fights and cock fights. Honestly, I don't see ANY opposition (either organized or individual) to these events in Mexico. There is plenty of opposition here to those events.<br /><br />What do you think, are they barbaric?<br /><br />Edited to say: Bob, I jsut saw your link. That's an American website. Can you find me a Mexican one?

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>where you tell me everything is fine and tell me how much you dislike Daniels and NOT to tell him, b/c you don't want to get bombarded with e-mails from him (I would post them, but posting e-mails on this board are against the rules and you would take them down). You even told me you locked the thread and deleted some of my posts b/c of your fear of Daniels calling and e-mailing you. Fact is, you more or less at the time, condoned Daniels stealing from me. Fact is I put a stop payment on the check I sent you before the card ever came to me (I really thought you would wait before shipping the card). You sent the card before that however, and I kept it and traded it to your moderator to make you mad. After you found out who I traded it to, then attacked him for no reason, I paid you the money for the check I put a stop payment on. Nothing about what I did was noble - I just wanted Leon to see things from my point of view and knew that someone as money hungry as Leon would finally see the light when something similar happened to him. And he did. This is why I am totally against censorship on these boards. If Leon would not have been scared of Daniels and not deleted my posts and locked the thread where others were sharing their bad experiences with Daniels, this feud between myself and Leon would never have arose. It is like I told Leon in an e-mail, he got his money back and I never will. Leon thought bad about me stopping payment on his check - just imagine how he would have felt if I did actually steal from him and never paid for the check????? I thought that incident would have been over and now Leon is saying I did steal from him. Well, he can say what he wants here as it is his board, but I do have the e-mails where he expresses to me that he learned his lesson and we both agreed that we should have done things differently and understood one anothers' points of view on the incident. Honestly, I have never stolen anything in my life. I never intended to keep Leon's card and not make good on the check I stopped payment on. I wish now I would have done things differently. Again, NONE of this mess I am talking about would have ever happened had Leon not been deleting posts and locking threads. I do admit I shouldn't have done what I did, but there was no reasoning with Leon at the time to keep the thread alive and afterall, these forums are meant to warn others about people stealing and doing shady things - to save them from going through a similar experience.

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>Wow! Isn't this thread the poster child for not allowing Off Topic posts? Nothing good can come out of it.<br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>are the ones who really eat what they kill/catch. I am talking about the more "elite" people in society who trophy hunt or fish. Also, what about fox hunts by the "elite". From the tone of your post, it seems as though you think only the "dregs of society" should be scrutinized for what they do? That is one great thing about the cockfights - there are all Nationalities, Races, income levels, etc. there at the arenas (I have seen people ranging from dope heads to World Champion Boxers and everyhing in between). It seems to me like some people love to attack sports when the "dregs of society" are participating. I have yet to see one attack from people against the "elite" who trophy hunt/fish or big corporations who use animals for testing purposes. However, from my viewing of posts on this forum ever since Leon took over, I can truly see this board becoming more and more for the "Upper Class" collectors. Some of you like to make fun of the board Jay and I created. Well, I can say a couple of things. Leon did not create Net 54 into what it is today - far from it. This board has been around technically since the Full Count days and that equates to several years. Sure our board is not this big. However, we are not even one year old yet and already have 105 members - I didn't expect us to reach one hundred until after we were one year old. Anyway, I can honestly say that everyone is treated equally on the Aimoo board Jay and I created - if you have a $100 collection or $10,000,000 collection. We might not have near as many posts as this forum (some people have made fun of us saying we only have 13 or 14 posts per day). However, the quality is there and the members really love the Hobby!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>I will have to visit this board again in the morning. It must be some sort of bad dream.<br /><br />Jay, you sure know how to push the right buttons!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Just so we can summarize Scott's position:<br /><br />He is a noble man because he allows roosters to tear each others' eyes out for sport while he screams at them so that he can win his bet; <br /><br />He is actually doing something good for the roosters;<br /><br />I am a racist because I don't like cockfighting;<br /><br />I have skeletons in my closet because I am critical of Scott's position on cockfighting; <br /><br />Because PETA is filled with kooks who are against cruelty to animals, those that support cockfights are some of the most upstanding members of society;<br /><br />Because drug dealing is bad, cockfighting is good; <br /><br />Leon is a POS because he dealt some weed a lifetime ago; <br /><br />Leon is a bigger POS because he dares to have an opinion about cockfighting which does not jibe with Scott's; <br /><br />Robbing a bank is ok as long as you return the money six months later; and lastly<br /><br />All of this is a conspiracy to make Scott look bad.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />The only thing I think you missed is that if one becomes involved in cockfighting, one might have the chance to meet Roy Jones Jr.<br /><br />So you'd have that going for you. Which is nice.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rob, perfect segue for Jim B. to chime in.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Maybe there are some advantages to going to bed early.<br /><br />I've read through this whole thread and I have to say Scott, with each passing comment, your argument grew weaker.<br /><br />The fact that you get some entertainment out of fighting cocks, and the fact that animals are slaughtered for food, help your argument not one iota. There is no justification for what you do, it is a preposterous way to spend one's time, and I would ask you the following question:<br /><br />Whether or not you get some entertainment out of it, would you consider just giving it up? If you like gambling, get your buddies together and play some draw poker and have a few beers. If you want to take the argument that slaughterhouses are also cruel, we are in 100% agreement and there are groups trying to make the slaughter of animals more humane, but in this country it is very difficult to fight big business.<br /><br />You can give us a hundred arguments why you partake in this activity, but all of them are morally bankrupt. Please do a good deed and find another hobby. Thank you.

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Posted By: <b>Dustan Hedlin</b><p>Man, if a thread that is slightly off topic gets this many replies, I can't wait to read topics that are really off topic. Sure does make for an interesting read, if nothing else.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1184764206.JPG"> <br /><br />This is aweseome stuff, Scott, you're right: looking at this picture makes me feel the same way that I did when watching Reggie hit that third homerun in Game 6 of the 77 WS (I was a Dodgers fan).

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know, I like to eat steak, and I am fully aware of the process that puts that steak on my plate.<br /><br />But if I'm walking down a country road and I see a cow, I don't pull out a machete and start hacking it up (hey, it's going to be slaughtered anyway, might as well get a head start).

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>the thread was directed at TBob as a question and he has not even posted here yet....

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Posted By: <b>Ed</b><p>Anyone know which T206 southern leaguers may have participated in cock fighting? I want to leave them out and narrow down the 48.

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Posted By: <b>bill latzko</b><p>...and I suppose that the electrocution and other "humane" methods of killing the dogs who were unwilling to fight or who lost in Virginia on Vick's property is OK with you too!!! ...you probably criticized Dan Koteles for expressing concern over the slaughter of the seals by skinning them while alive etc...and since this post isn't considered off topic yet, I could go into the discussion of the innocent people in Iraq, but we'll leave that for another time ....Peace Now

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bill- when I read the Michael Vick article in today's paper it made me sick. If a dog lost a fight by simply walking away because he was no longer willing to fight, they would water him down and then electrocute him.<br /><br />Hope all of those involved spend some serious jail time.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>As long as Michael Vick takes his receivers along with him...adios <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Bill K@sel</b><p>It's not that the dogs that were murdered by Vick and his cronies (alledgedly) were even fully grown...in some cases they were puppies and rather than finding a home for them they just slaughtered them in the most inhumane ways possible (electrocution, drowning, slamming on the ground...). Cock fighting, dog fighting, bull fighting...it's all deplorable and speaks volumes of the people who support it...."legal" or not.<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Here is an article with Vicente Fox, the immediate past President of Mexico who is interviewing a Bull Fighter (torero). My Spanish is not that great but I read OK ... better than I understand and certainly better than I speak.<br /><br />In essence, he thanks the Bull Fighter for giving Mexicans great pride. He wishes him the best of luck in his career. Late, in the artilce, Fox states he really likes Bull Fighting and has since his youth and further explains that because of his career he can no longer be at the Plaza but watches from TV.<br /><br />The Bull Fighter then goes on to explain that he will kill six Bulls in Guadalajara on Sunday which will be "historic."<br /><br />Fox explains to the fighter than his efforts are full of art, full of culture, full of history.<br /><br /><a href="http://fox.presidencia.gob.mx/actividades/?contenido=7416" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://fox.presidencia.gob.mx/actividades/?contenido=7416</a>

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Cat, some societies are not as enlightened as others...they are not all equals. You wouldn't send your kid over to China to work in a shirt factory would you? There's almost no opposition in China to that - or so I hear.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Cat,<br /><br />In the article in the link I provided, the significant points I thought were, that, in a poll of 50,000 residents of 12 states of the Mexican Union, 87% of respondents came out in opposition to bullfighting. The second point was, the contention that some 90% of attendees at Mexican bullfights were American and Canadian tourists. Unfortunately, I have to admit, I don't believe either. However, if the number of Mexicans opposed to this orgy of sadism is anywhere near 87%, perhaps there is some hope.

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Quote from Dan: "some societies are not as enlightened as others...they are not all equals."<br /><br />Scott lives in the hills of Virginia. Ever been there? Does he get a pass?

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Bob:<br /><br />There has to be some opposition somewhere in Mexico. There has to be. But American cock fighting (and dog fighting) happens in a secret society, out of public eye but Mexican Bull Fighting primarily happens in downtown arenas, and broadcast on TV. The acceptance level is clearly different.<br /><br />I actually did my own search to see if there was opposition and I did find one meaningful site on Animal Rights (all animals), but when you clicked on the thread about Bulls it sent you over to "Barcelona." BUT, I did want Mexico specific since it is not my point that Americans are in opposition to Bull Fighting (I think we know that many are). So any opposition in Mexico is virtually invisible. There were tons of sites glorifying/advertising Bull Fighting.<br /><br />I don't believe that poll either...not even close. My view, is that Mexicans think of Bull Fighting as part of their culture like we think of Football as part of ours. America has some that think Football is barbaric because of the potential of humans getting hurt, but that is a small small minoriity. I think the same proportion of opposition numbers would be applicable in Mexico when applying the poll to Bull Fighting.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Virginia has yet to catch up to the majority of the United States on the issue of cockfighting....I have little doubt that it will in the near future. That still doesn't mean that Mexico is as enlightened as the United States. Bullfighting is just as barbaric....its general acceptance in Mexico doesn't make it right. Just as child labor in third world and communist countries is unacceptable no matter what their societies think in general.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the United States, and the entire world for that matter, still has a long way to go in the prevention of cruelty to animals. In some cases it is the heartlessness of man; and in others, such as the slaughterhouses, it's the almighty dollar that dictates the barbaric way animals are killed. We've taken some steps in a positive direction, but there is still a long way to go. Bullfighting is centuries old and will probably continue for the foreseeable future, but we can always hope that one day all animal (and human!) cruelty will be eradicated. But that's probably asking for too much.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Now they are talking about CJ's and factory miscuts over on the Net54 Cock Fighting board.

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Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Quote from Cat: "Scott lives in the hills of Virginia. Ever been there? Does he get a pass?"<br /><br />I've been there. I lived there for close to 8 years. What are you saying? It's not as backwoods hillbilly-ville as you are inferring, if in fact you are. Yes there are some uneducated people in that area of the South, but I would say the same is true pretty much anywhere you go. <br /><br />My only issue when I lived there was that many people were still very prejudice. They were very proud of their southern heritage. I don't condone this, it is just an observation. I lived on the Tennessee/Kentucky boarder of Virginia, so as close to the "hills of Virinia" as you can get.<br /><br />But I don't agree with that statement. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Dan:<br /><br />My point was NEVER since Mexico thinks it is OK, perhaps it is OK. That was NEVER my point.<br /><br />My point was actually a bit hidden. My interpretation was many were saying what Scott was doing was barbaric and thus Scott was barbaric (no one actually called Scott barbaric, but I believe if you accuse someone of barbaric acts you are acusing them of being barbaric...in case someone wants to split hairs).<br /><br />Mexico as a society does the same as Scott. Are they barbaric? That has always been my question. I just wanted to see if someone would say it. If Scott is barbaric, then Mexico as a society is barbaric. The Venn Diagrams have to overlap.<br /><br />I think many are accusing Scott of barbaric acts because it is politically correct. To criticize Mexico as a society may not be politically correct, so it seemed like most people were dancing around the topic. If you criticize Scott you have to criticize Mexican culture (at least when it comes to this aspect of their culture). Again, the Venn Diagrams have to overlap.<br /><br />Dan, you actually came the closest to saying it although primarily using the Chinese example.<br /><br />In the end, my point was to see if people were outraged by Scott regardless of political correctness.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Mexican government/Scott/Chinese sweatshops/Roy Jones Jr/Michael Vick/State of Virginia.....that is one heck of a Venn Diagram

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Wesley:<br /><br />You forgot cockfighting. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Cat, To be honest, I really don't care. I am still having chicken fajitas at the N54 dinner.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>These pretzels are pretty salty.<br /><br />Peter<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Quote from Wesley: "I am still having chicken fajitas"<br /><br />You are now part of the Venn Diagram.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Perhaps an alternative: <br /><br /><a href="http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/c/cockfighting_gifts.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/c/cockfighting_gifts.asp</a>

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>LOL I knew I should have avoided this thread, Cat. Now I am on the same overlapping Venn Diagram as Michael Vick and the Nike factory in China.

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Can we get Mastro into this thread? Seinfeld? (oh yeah done sorry). Barry Bonds? Banner ads and Leon's bias? EDITED TO ADD Pete C., do you think The Card will impact cockfighting?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />How about partial birth abortion--whats more barbaric--killing a dog or killing an unborn(soon to be born) child

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>If this is not a perfect segue into a Lugers or Mortons dinner in NYC, I don't know what it.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Be patient... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Uh, that would be "segue," or were you making fun Wes of Hal's old misspelling of the word?

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Posted By: <b>steve yawitz</b><p>I'm not down with cockfighting, but as a PETA quasi-kook, I have to say that Scott has a point about the hypocrisy associated with society's handwringing over fighting animals.

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Posted By: <b>S Gross</b><p>I went to a dog fight last night, and a Net54 thread broke out .........<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />(((It's gonna' take me a while, hopefully before this thread gets locked, but there was a notable 19th cent. baseball player who was also a well respected dog fight referee.))))

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Peter, Thanks for the correction. Unfortunately, the misspelling was real. I am just glad you caught it before Barry did.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Wes, you're just lucky that Jeff didn't catch it. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I got here too late and Wesley already made the correction. I miss all the good stuff!