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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The problem is that if a card makes it into a slab, then history can be re-written,i.e - the alterations simply didn't occur. The act of grading becomes "the hand of God". Pretty heavy accomplishment for those youngsters - I wonder if they realize how powerful they really are? Next they'll be throwing Chee-tohs through steel walls.
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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Porter</b><p><P>This exchange has gone on with the usual pungent exchanges on the joys and sorrows of grading. I for one am grateful that there are grading companies, perfect though they may not be. As much as I understand grading standards, characteristics of genuine and "non-genuine" cards, and the history of different card issues, my eyes are simply not as good as others in picking out the problems. I am grateful for experts at the grading companies for their help and advice. I value the knowledge and discrimination of Mike Baker and others, who can see things in mere moments that I will not notice for days or weeks.</P><P>The question was raised in this posting whether there is a good online source explaining grading criteria, with sample images. There is one at:</P><P><A href="http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/card_articles/grading.htm">http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/card_articles/grading.htm</A></P><P>I do not know the author, and I may not agree with every one of his/her statements. But this is an excellent primer on grading standards - well-written, well-reasoned and with useful images.</P><P>That said, understanding the standards and being able to apply them in the real world are two separate challenges. As much as I have learned about cards, and as much as I still have my differences with grading companies, I have found their input invaluable in my collecting efforts. I continue to rely on SGC and GAI extensively for my collection - not to displace my personal evaluation of my purchases but to supplement my limited skills and failing eyesight. </P>
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Scott. I am not sure I could be anymore relevant to you given the amount of contempt you have for me. <br /><br />As for anyone who wants to involve the authorities, particularly our our "newest" poster, pujolsfan, (gosh I wonder who this could be?????), please do so immediately and get it out of your systems. If you e-mail me I can provide you with the direct number to the lead field investigator who handles all sports related fraud.
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Suppose I own a card that has a corner flip and, as a result of storing the card in a screwdown, the flip becomes less apparent. In the eyes of the folks here setting moral standards, have I "restored" the card and do I have to disclose that if I sell the card (whether slabbed or unslabbed)? Am I committing a fraud if I send in the card to a grading company without disclosing that fact to them? If so, why? If not, why not?
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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Part of the issue is the graders should know enough to see, or at least look for your corner flip, or other alterations. As mentioned previously in this post, comic book graders (CGC) clearly indicate on the slab when a comic has been restored. <br /><br />This information does not necessarily come from the person submitting the book. There are knowledgable people who grade the books, and they have the technology to identify when a comic has been restored. <br /><br />Regardless of how some people may restore cards and try to pass them as authentic, it is not foolproof. The grading companies have to want to look for it, uniformly in every card, in order to be accurate about the grades, and any level of restoration. The technology clearly exists to do this. Grading is more than measuring centering and dimensions with a micrometer, and determining to what level a cards' corners are sharp. Even with these basic components of grading, there are still flaws. Until something is done, the restored cards ending up in slabs will continue.
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>You guys don't know me, but I sell a lot of cards on and off Ebay.<br /><br />The thing that upsets me is that if what some of you say is true....and certain people are able to get "restored" cards graded, then what of the rest of us. <br /><br />I have a lot of cards that could easily be restored and bring more profit. But I have no connections. I don't know anyone at the major grading companies. This is the unfair part. This obvious monopoly of the vintage market is driving me away from something I love. <br /><br />Greg is not the problem, and certainly persecuting him is not the answer.<br /><br />I don't know how to fix it, but I am a youngster and will leave these bigger problems for you old guys to fix. <br /><br />Just don't ruin it all for my generation....<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>oldthingsandstuff,<br /><br />You are dead wrong. Greg is the problem. GAI is the problem. YOU are the problem.<br /><br />These fraudulent activities need to stop and an example needs to be set. Locking up Greg might not be the solution but it's a start. It will set an example for others (such as you). Let's face it. You're a criminal without the ways and means to execute your criminal mindset. Your posting translates to:<br /><br />"It's not fair that Greg gets to do it and I can't"<br /><br />An FBI investigation of alleged backdoor grading at GAI would also be a good start. All of the other grading companies would be forced to keep their operations clean in the future.
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Pujols you want to lock up Greg because he pushed down some paper on the back of a card that graded a 2? I agree with Bill Cornell's analysis, this is not "restoration" in any meaningful sense. Compared to what really goes on out there it is laughably trivial. I would be interested, given your obvious high moral standards, in your response to my screwdown hypothetical, and let me add one more fact, that the card was not placed in the screwdown for the purpose of restoring it, just the way it was stored.
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>so I am going to turn myself in at the local FBI office. I will try to convince everyone else at GAI, SGC and PSA who are apparently colluding with me to do the same. <br /><br />The arguments here have been so compelling and I just have no defense.
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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>were talking about a grade of "good". that card is is in "good" condition.this is a hobby,you should enjoy it. take a look at what you buy and who you buy it from.if you believe the grades are set in stone from the slabbers then call the fbi.i would suggest you read all the disclaimers about card grading.the only thing they (graders) should be held accountable is for authentication.
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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Lots of hoopla on this one. Personally, I wouldn't bother going to the authorities on this because they have better things to do than monitor our hobby. We should be able to police things (a bit) on our own. This forum allows us to voice our opinions and it provides a method of "spreading the word." To me this is just a bad call by a grading service and it was a bit deceptive on the part of the submitter to conceal the hole. I know that PSA would not grade anything higher than a "1" with a pin hole.<br /><br />BOTN, I don't know you but here's my thoughts on your following comment:<br /><br />"The card is also not trimmed according to 2 people <font color="red">who have far more experience grading cards than all of you who post here combined</font>"<br /><br />I found that a bit irksome because I'm pretty sure my standards are probably more strict than most and I've seen enough vintage cards in my time to provide a decent assessment. I've not seen this card in person (out of the holder) so I can't render an opinion on it. I'm sure that there are plenty of experienced people that post on this board who can probably provide an opinion on this matter. Please don't take this as a "personal attack" because it isn't meant to be so. I just wouldn't under-estimate the people that post on this board.<br /><br />This board can be interesting, educational and entertaining. There's a lot of passion in here sometimes. So long as it doesn't get too far out of hand it's great.
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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>But I am very disheartened by the cavalier attitude that some of the posters here take towards this issue. Everyone here is sophisticated enough and (hopefully) ethical enough to know that altering cards and selling them without disclosing that they have been altered is not right, regardless of whether a slabber blesses the handiwork between handfulls of cheese-its, and regardless of whether it is altered well enough to get a 7 or poorly enough to only draw a 2. The difference is one of degree, not substance. It is also illegal in California, where everything took place, to sell an altered card without disclosing it. California Business & Professions Code § 21671 says that you cannot sell an altered card without a specific written disclosure to the buyer and penalizes the seller who does so $5,000 per altered card, because: "The integrity of the sports trading card market must be protected by requiring seller disclosure to buyers and traders of sports trading cards that have been altered or refurbished..." <br /><br />It does not matter to me that GAI passed the card; it was altered intentionally to improve its appearance. Some poor buyer on Ebay now gets ****ed out of a pretty good chunk of change for an altered card. Is that right? How do you think he'd feel about it if he found out? Pissed is probably an understatement. <br /><br />Remember something called the Golden Rule? Ring any bells? The fact that some people do not seem to understand that it is wrong to use a third party to hide something like this is a pretty sad commentary on their business ethics. I say no to that kind of thinking. Honesty is better. If you think like a thief, you have to live like one too. What's the old saying: "I don't lay down with dogs so I don't wake up with fleas"?
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p><<Compared to what really goes on out there it is laughably trivial.>><br /><br />Oh, okay - then we'll just ignore any problems we see. <br /><br />To sum this whole thing up - some of us would like to see the grading companies employee graders who have more expertise (not go away), so that the fact that an item is encapsulated means you can trust it to be authentic and un-altered, and the people on this board who use the grading companies' lack of expertise to their own financial advantage would like for us to shut up. In fact, one person even went so far as to complain because he isn't allowed to cheat while others are.
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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Thank you Warshawlaw. You reminded me of the word - ETHICS (or lack of). It would be something that could probably be applied to a deception or lack of full disclosure regarding an item description. This isn't a personal attack but an observation regarding selling and trading practices within our hobby.
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>just so that i am not labled a future criminal...<br /><br />my point was that if I sent a similar card in it wouldn't be graded. Not that I am going to start altering cards if I could. <br /><br />I know these grading companies have knowledge of who's cards they are grading. You can't tell me that they don't give preferential treatment to certain people...even if it is not directly asked for.
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>It's now okay to do anything you want to a card - as long as you can slip it by a grading company it's fine. Once it's in that slab, it is re-born in its new image. There is no longer any need for card collectors to think, or even examine their cards closely - after all, we have experts at the grading companies to do our thinking for us. "Wow, that's a 7 fer shur - most vivid colors I've ever seen in a Fro-Joy Ruth...Hey! Hold the mayo on that one!" <br /><br />Furthermore, anyone who calls to attention a possible grading company mistake is a nuisance and should be ashamed of themselves. You are paranoid, Adam - PARANOID!!
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Judge Dred<br /><br />My comment that offended you may have been an exaggeration but no more than many of the comments made about me from several of the posters here. I am quite certain that there are many people here who have the skills to grade. My point was that Mike Baker and Sean Drinkwater have an incredible amount of experience in the grading room. They are far more capable than most of you want to give them credit for because somehow you view them, and other graders, as the enemy.<br /><br />For some to conclude that a conspiracy exists between myself and all of the grading companies is foolish. I have been accused of grading altered cards with all 3 grading companies. For GAI, especially, to knowingly encapsulate a card they believe is altered, that I or anyone else submits, is just a little paranoid. They are trying to get more market share not sabotage their good name. Not sure if you realize how much effort they put in each day to grow their business. They get $10 from me whether or not the card gets placed in a holder. Why would they knowingly want to take on a $500 liability in exchange for $10, as in this example? <br /><br />If you want to apply California Business & Professions Code § 21671, then you need to identify "alteration." This card was not altered. You all have the right to boycott me but you do not have the right to trash my name. You do not conduct investigations and to try me in this forum due to your own vendettas is inappropriate. Call the FBI. They do have a division assigned to the kind of fraud you are accusing me of. Not every part of the organization is designated for more important issues.<br />
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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>Mastronet doesn't have to ask, it's an automatic--dating back to you know what, you know when.<br /><br />See, I just got an e-mail that Mastro had sent Ben's and my cards out today, and I hope they'll forget this 116th post in a long thread before the next auction (assuming they have NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN READ IT)
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>It's good to see such blatant honesty.<br /><br />Personally, I don't think Greg has any pull with anyone - I think he chooses GAI because they are the company most likely to slab his cards. The grades he gets don't seem extraordinary.
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>I checked out this that you mentioned above:<br /><br /><br />The question was raised in this posting whether there is a good online source explaining grading criteria, with sample images. There is one at:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/card_articles/grading.htm" target=_new>http://www.seanet.com/~brucemo/card_articles/grading.htm</a><br /><br /><br />While not perfect, this is a great starting primer - thanks for the link!<br />
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>"Julie, you kill me"<br /><br />Actually Scott, I divide up my business equally between all 3 grading companies. But apparently I do have pull with you.
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Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>Yesterday while trying to slide a p-f T-206 Jacklitsch into a pocket on a page, I snagged a corner and had a very small paper pull...I removed card, pushed paper down and slid it back in...you can't even tell!...when (well, really if) I ever sell, do I mention that it was altered? I altered a card. The guilt is eating away at me. Darn.
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>You are my negative barometer for vintage card information.
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>constantly remind me, by example, that my life could always be far worse. For that I thank you. You never disappoint me by showing me how angry and miserable you really are.
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>........
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Posted By: <b>823dek</b><p>why break it up ?<br /><br />This is our rendition of "ONE LIFE TO LIVE"...just in a baseball way!<br /><br />Also, this is the only place that I can count on a snork in my laugh and a toot in my behind, cause I JUST CANT STOP SNORKING !!!!!!
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>But much ado about nothing. Why is it that all the people on this board have the same knee-jerk reaction and get all sanctimonious and self-righteous and on their moral high horse whenever Greg is involved just because he tamps down some paper surrounding a pinhole on a miserable off grade card, but seem to have no outrage at all about the shenanigans and fraud that are REALLY going on all over the hobby with extremely high priced cards (and others) in terms of taking out creases and stains, spooning and god knows what else to corners, most likely trimming (someone show me an oversize PSA 8 pre-war Hall of Famer or an undersize PSA 3 please??), and god only knows what else dealers are doing through their own skills or their relationships with experts in paper restoration. I am as much against "alteration" as the next person, so don't those of you who don't know me start dumping on me in a knee-jerk way, but some perspective please. Your outrage over the corruption with respect to graded cards (and probably ungraded too) is legitimate, but trying to suggest Greg is some moving force behind it or symbol of it, or that he is in cahoots with GAI based on a single card that they graded a "2," is absurd.
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>"and you, my bar hound, November 4 2004, 10:28 PM <br /><br />constantly remind me, by example, that my life could always be far worse. For that I thank you. You never disappoint me by showing me how angry and miserable you really are. "<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm tryin' to frown 'cause Greg don't like me....
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Your posts are at least intelligent enough, and interesting enough to read. Quite honestly, despite what you say it's obvious that you would like to have the respect of others in the hobby. I'm not trying to dirty your name - merely debating you over an issue that we have a total disagreement on. <br /><br />I haven't been making any references to your height, or anything else up to now - trying to keep the conversation clean and focused. Regarding the Johnson, it's true that it LOOKS altered from the scan, but I don't know - I would have to see it. The rest of the dialog surrounding that card is mostly hypothetical, but what's wrong with that?
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>I really hate these posts...I would have moved the paper over the pin hole also,,,its because of blind hated for Greg that this keeps going on....its not a big deal, and we keep rehashing the same old crud...oh yeah, please sign in....
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>When a significant difference in value exists between grades, it is not uncommon for ethical individuals to resubmit cards to a grading service several times in an attempt to achieve a higher grade. This ethical practise will result in all valuable slabbed cards being representative of the worst condition for the indicated grade.<br /><br />Similarly, cited above are instances in which card owners innocently fixed minor imperfections in their cards.<br /><br />It is not clear to me where the lines of innocence and ethics are drawn. And I do not think that it matters what we think. Because there will always be opportunists who take advantage of profit potential.<br /><br />A card's condition is obvious to an educated eye (although sometimes the eye is focused thru a microscope). A grading service ideally will report the exact condition of the card, including alterations, as applicable; for those of us less educated.<br /><br />What more do you want? I know. You want no one to alter cards. You want no one to make counterfeit cards. And more. I agree. And I want beer to be free too.
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>it's been pointed out to me, if I don't like these types of threads I could post my own, and post about what I want to speak about,,,I agree,,,I wish I didnt post earlier.,,,<br /><br />that said,,,I really wish we would all get along...it seems to me, we all hate scammers....it seems that gregs card was fixed in a way that most people accept as ok,,,some don't and will say so..and it also seems that because the card was gregs that we got an extra amount of responses because it involved him...<br /><br />I think this time, we need to give him the benefit, because it looks like it wasn't doctored, and Global gave it a two...<br /><br />its Global that seems to be goofing on this one...but regardless, I repect evryones opinion, and hope they respect mine,,doesnt mean we have to agree.
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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>...she's a nice lady (and her papa was a nice man).
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Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>not sure what that means Julie, is it a crack on me ? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />I like Days of our Lives
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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>for all I know, still is! Middle-aged ladies can stay middle-aged forever. Vicky. That was her name on the soap.<br />Her father was Walter Slezak, who had a mild German accent, and I think usually played German good guys (during and before and after WW2), but probably some German bad guys as well (we were always in need of them in the war movies--lotta guys in WW2 moivies speaking TERRIBLE German, cause they didn't know it).<br /><br />Walter's father, Leo, was one of the greatest tenors in the first half of the century...
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Not sure I classify what you, and a couple others, have written about me as having been done in the spirit of a debate or a hypothetical argument since it has clearly has demonstrated a deep seeded hatred for me. <br /><br />With that said, in another thread you made a post today and offered to buy the E95 Cobb PSA 3. I have to reply here since you will not take my e-mails where matters could be addressed privately and more productively.<br /><br />Given your total contempt for me, I will not make the card available to you. Too often you have said one thing and done another as well as having taken things out of context to suit your position. You clearly do not have my best interest.<br /><br />As a goodwill gesture I offered to send you the Cobb to examine after SGC sent it back to me and you declined. At this point, I am unwilling to voluntarily subject myself to more of your caustic attacks. Sorry, but you are not trustworthy.<br />
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I doubt anyone on this board has a "deep seeded hatred" for you. I have never even met you, and people who have met you say that you are very likeable (this includes at least one person who you thought "hated" you). Honestly, if I ever meet you in a social situation I would probably offer to buy you a drink, unless you started kicking me in the shins.<br /><br />"Total contempt"? I'm not sure that's what I feel...but maybe. But you shouldn't be concerned with that - many board members have already indicated in this thread that they think you are being unfairly chastised. So you have that going for you. <br /><br />Forgive me, but I need to use those damned brackets just once...<br /><br /><<Given your total contempt for me, I will not make the card available to you. Too often you have said one thing and done another as well as having taken things out of context to suit your position. You clearly do not have my best interest.>><br /><br />No, that's not true. I have always known that there was no way that anyone on this board would ever get to see that e95 Cobb post-alteration. I made the offer to buy it realizing that you would have to be an absolute moron to take me up on it. My offer had nothing to do with your "best interest" - you are correct that that doesn't concern me. I simply wanted to see if you were correct that no one would be able to spot the alterations. I don't think that's true, and hopefully at some point we will be at the same location and you can bring the card. I have been told that there are professional document restorers who can do work so well that no one could spot it...I just want to see if that is true.
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Scott. Another game of semantics and talking out of both sides of your mouth. Just another post by you in which you cannot be "clean and focused." <br /><br />You were sure that nobody would ever get to see the Cobb yet here are our e-mails in which I offer to send the card to you. I can show you a similar PM that I sent to Michael Wentz.<br /><b>----- Original Message -----<br />From: "greg" <grays@botn.com><br />To: <Runscott@bellsouth.net><br />Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:12 PM<br />Subject: On Second Thought<br /><br />> Scott,<br />><br />> I am not sure how we got into it. But I am really not interested in<br />> fighting. I honestly thought that we were on the same side. I would like<br />> to send out the E95 Cobb for you to inspect. If you could please send it<br />> back to me after you have had a good look I would appreciate it <br /><br /><br />From: "Scott Forrest" <Runscott@bellsouth.net><br />To: "greg" <grays@botn.com><br />Subject: Re: On Second Thought<br />Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 23:17:30 -0500<br /><br />Thanks Greg - I agree. But just send detailed scans of the affected areas -<br />repaired tear, colored scratches. I'm curious how the perpetrator matched<br />the dark red color and got the typing so perfect.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />Scott<br /></B><br /><br />Neither you or did Michael Wentz really gave me another opportunity to make the offer again since you both went back to your campaign to attack me--oh sorry, I will use your words--to debate and to hypothesize. <br /><br />If we are ever at the same location, and I was hoping it was going to be last years National, maybe you recall this e-mail you sent me?<br /><br /><b>From: "Scott Forrest" <Runscott@bellsouth.net><br />To: "greg" <grays@botn.com><br />Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:26:34 -0400<br /><br />Greg,<br /> <br />I offered on the board to buy you a beer at the National. If you keep up this line of conversation I will instead kick your ass up between your ears, and that's not an offer - it's a fact. <br /> <br />Sincerely,<br />Scott </B><br /><br />There is so much more to address in your last post but it really is not worth it.
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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>.......
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I guess now that you've nailed me I'll just disappear and you can sell altered cards to your heart's content with no fear of anyone responding.<br /><br />I'll probably just go bury my head in a vat of beer - could you please wake me up before my marathon next Saturday? Thanks in advance.
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Sorry if that always seems to throw you for a loop and result in another insult. <br /><br />Good luck in the race.
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>and good luck to you with whatever you do on Saturdays.
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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>Stop the madness!<br /><br />Calgon, take me away!<br /><br />Where's the Beef?<br /><br />(ok, you can ignore that third one - back to my Rubik's cube)
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>....what in the world ever became of sweet Jane?
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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>If you don't like the thread, why do you read it, and why do you post? If you stop posting in a boring thread, it dies a natural death. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if I promise not to post again in this thread (or even open it), when I check the board tomorrow there will be at least one additional post here...by someone who hates this thread.
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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>I don't dislike this thread at all, just trying to inject a little humor - I think a thread like this every once in a while keeps things lively around here, and though it occasionally gets a bit heated, it's still educational and helps me be aware of the current state of the vintage card industry.<br /><br />"she lost her sparkle, you know she isn't the same"<br /><br />BTW, there aren't too many problems that can't be solved by a Grateful Dead lyric - one of my faves: "If you get confused, listen to the music play."<br />
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Grading hits home
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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