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He has over 600 posts. I must reread all of them to see if I have missed anything. |
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I was working on a longer post regarding player height, but wow this thread got weird. Love everything about this thread and the debate, but come on. Koufax is a great pitcher. But in an all time great debate, you don’t get to just cut out Koufax’s terrible first 6 years of his professional career and pretend it didn’t happen. That’s just now how it works.
And on top of that, 600 innings is all that’s needed to be the GOAT? Even in modern baseball, say 150 innings per year, that’s only 4 years. So the HOF requires 10 years to even make the HOF as a low tier HOFer. But somehow you can be the greatest pitcher ever pitching 4 years? And not even qualify for the HOF? That is jumping the shark. |
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Care to place a wager on this one Peter? Or Mr. Data Analyst perhaps? Mr Snow PaTroll perhaps? Anyone? ... No? Didn't think so. |
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So if you want to start making adjustments for Koufax's park, then you have to make them for Spahn and Randy as well. And given his tenure in County Stadium and other extremely friendly pitchers' parks, there is literally no other pitcher in history whose numbers would take a bigger park factor hit than Warren Spahn. His overall numbers would literally take the largest hit of every single major league pitcher who ever threw from the mound by adjusting for park factors. Don't believe me? Go look it up yourself. https://www.baseball-reference.com/t...L/attend.shtml Meanwhile, Randy Johnson pitched in one of the worst pitchers' parks in MLB history when he won his 4 consecutive CYAs in Arizona. I can't even imagine wanting or needing to IMPROVE his numbers from those 4 years, but the data tells us that we should. Pretty insane, if you ask me. |
No one is denying Spahn benefited from his park. Like most pitchers, his home numbers are better, and it’s one of the factors holding down his adjusted rate stats, which are still excellent.
Unlike Koufax, his ERA doesn’t double or triple each year outside of Dodger Stadium vs. being at Dodger stadium, as was broken down several times already. Unlike Koufax, he was a star pitcher before he got to County Stadium at age 32, when Koufax had been retired for 2 years. Your comeback will be to ignore this or to compare their home/road splits on a career level to cover up Sandy’s dodger stadium difference as opposed to his other home parks that don’t have extreme problems and didn’t align perfectly with his only good years. You’ll get no argument from me that Spahn was better than Johnson, for numerous reasons. The problem is you chose to make the absurd proclamation, supported by 0 prominent and known expert baseball statisticians, that Spahn was “above average, at best”. Not being as good as Randy Johnson after you adjust for park is not a winning argument when this is your hypothesis. It’s shifting the goalpost, very obviously and poorly. A 119 ERA+, adjusted for park, in over 5,000 IP is not “above average at best” according to any prominent baseball statistician or by common sense. Also, isn’t your argument you just made a few hours ago that Sandy’s first 7 years should be ignored? No home park effect creates Sandy’s terrible first half of his career. Interesting how his first half matters when it helps Sandy and does not matter when it hurts Sandy. Like all the Koufax arguments, it’s an argument from conclusion in which the argument is formulated after the conclusion without any regard for consistency to previous statements. |
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Felix Hernandez Dwight Gooden Bert Blyleven Mike Morgan David Clyde Vida Blue Denny McLain Dave McNally Early Wynn Bob Feller (Who may be the youngest ever, in the modern era at least, at only 17) Babe Ruth People really should learn to do a little research before shooting off their mouths when demanding proof of something they think off the top of their head doesn't exist. Gee, I hope if this was something being asked for by a researcher or statistician that it isn't indicative of the usual quality of their work. Would certainly make me a tad bit concerned about believing anything such a person would ever say or suggest, right? Just another one of those - Things that make you go hmmmmm....... |
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I'm sure there's a statistical formula or algorithm somewhere to prove he may have a better chance of winning if he calls what he's doing one thing as opposed to the other. But on second thought, maybe not! LOL |
Early Wynn was a late bloomer!
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Hold on a sec. WRT Early Wynn: he may have pitched as a teenager, but he was a very ordinary pitcher through his age-28 season. It was only after Washington traded him to Cleveland that he started to pitch above league average -- he made the HoF in his 30's.
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1638028681 |
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Don't disagree, but I believe the question asked of others was to name pitchers who pitched in the majors as teenagers, not how they fared when they pitched. And thank you for bringing that up by the way, and I sincerely mean that. It cuts off whoever may have asked the original question from trying to throw it back in someone's face, because now if they still try to do that, they'll really look kind of dumb. Thanks! |
Gary Nolan, Wally Bunker, Chief Bender, Rube Bressler and Smoky Joe Wood also all had excellent seasons as teens in the 20th century.
Most pitchers are not major league ready or good in their teens. Most aren’t at 20 or 21. Most excellent pitchers ‘put it together’ at 23-25. Koufax bloomed a little late, but not very late like Randy Johnson or Early Wynn. The much bigger issue for his value to his team is that he was completely done by 30. His early years can’t be ignored, nor should they for any pitcher, but his real problem is the age he was useless by. Johnson I have as #2 and he was a true late bloomer. |
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The list of names you and I have of those who pitched in their teens is pretty impressive in terms of the ability of others to spot their raw, MLB level talent at such an early age. Of the 15 listed teen pitchers, 5 are in the HOF (including Ruth), and 5 are Cy Young winners (with Wynn being the only CYA winner and HOFer in the group). So 9 of these 15 MLB pitchers turned out to be at least somewhat great. That is an outstanding 60% success rate in predicting who would go on to do well. And that doesn't even include Wood or McNally, who both had excellent careers also. |
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Another pitcher who started in their teens (a lefty even). went on to a respectable career, and retired young was Johnny Antonelli. |
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So what's the over/under on the number of posts that Snowman makes in a given thread before pissing off (multiple) people?
I now have an ignore list of one. |
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I think it's more than fair to give him a pass while he tried to figure things out. Your words. Yes. I ignore Koufax's early years. He was a teenager when he entered the league. Your words. You would have the same exact assessment if his career had gone in reverse. Again, that's fine, but your excuses for him are pretextual. Bad faith indeed. |
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You guys should go look through this clown's post history over the past few months. Just go through them one by one. He never contributes even a shred of value to any conversation. All he does is post about me. From one thread to the next. His entire existence here is stalking me. |
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Just tell the trolls know they can't count as there were other posts with more names than on the one list anyway. And if they want any more names than that, they should get off their lazy butts and go look them up themselves. |
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You and me both. |
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All he does is post about me. From one thread to the next. His entire existence here is stalking me. What YOU said is BS. I thought you were a statistician, since when is 16 of 25 100 percent? By lawyer math it's 64 percent. Or maybe it's the same logic that lets you ignore half of Koufax' career lol. Only the 16 count. |
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This is the perfect example of why everyone hates lawyers. There isn't a single person here, including yourself, who is confused about what someone actually means when they say something like "all he/she does is X". Then the forum captain lawyer comes along to point out the obvious, "well actually, he did make a post about Jackie Robinson last week". Or if someone says, "all he does is sleep", you're the genius that's going to point out, "well actually, I saw him eating lunch yesterday". I'm done playing games with you Peter. Have fun talking to the wall like you always do. My point is clear. Lorewalker stalks me from thread to thread. He has a serious problem. The majority of his content over the past 3 or 4 months is either directly about me or mocking me. It's extremely childish. |
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When someone accuses someone else of stalking them on here, and then points to the accused's prior posts that apparently they went searching for to then go through, am I missing something or does it not sound like the accuser is maybe the one actually doing the stalking? :eek: |
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I’m really sad I’m not going to get to see this groundbreaking statistic that shows Koufax is top 3, crapping all over the inferior work of respected baseball statisticians that have not been able to achieve this.
Anyways, Grove Vs. Johnson Vs. Spahn with the shared acknowledgement that all 3 were truly great pitchers is a much more reasonable polite debate for us all to have than the screeching from Koufax stans that is most of this. |
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