There’s an easy way for me to tell. The big dealer from Dallas (forgetting his name) has the most gi-normous collection of wonderful Red Sox pennants, I think his pics may be somewhere back in this thread. If he won the pennant, it’s real. If he didn’t bid, it’s fake. Simple as that. :)

I've attached a pic of the back of the red sox pennant, where you can mostly see the spine stitching that appears to leave no way to insert a stick and the long tassels with the triangular cut out (notch) at the tip. And also a pic of the modern Seals pennant with the same characteristics.

Was the triangular tip cut out/notch something that was used on older pennants? Anyone have any examples?

Rick Haskins. First person I thought of when the picture was posted. If he doesn't chime in before, there's a big Tristar show he does every six months in my town. The next one is Feb 8-10. I'll probably see him there and can get his thoughts.

Not a baseball pennant expert by any means, but for me, the graphics look too precise for the era a 32" pennant would be indicative of.

I don’t care who bought it, it’s a newer piece. The stitching on the piping and layering of pieces screams new. Bocca is right.

Rick is probably looking at this and I would be surprised if he spent $400 on this.

Yeah... I was thinking it was likely the same company (or individual) that made the Seals Pennant as well. Many thanks to Marc for blowing up the spine and fish-tail tassels. I was just too lazy to hunt for the pics, although I know they are buried somewhere within this gi-normous thread.

Which, by the way, has now exceeded 2,000 posts! Rob is 'da Man ;)

For what it’s worth, here’s a 1910s Athletics pennant, unquestionably vintage, with horizontal stitching at the top and bottom of the strip. (Also three sets of tassels, tucked behind.)

Here’s another, same era, like the other one everything is stitched (no silk screening). Odd size (9” by 35”) ... but with same stitching on spine.

Another thought on that Red Sox pennant.....the description was very vague. Other than a questionable “vintage” in the title, there were no out and out misrepresentations. I think the seller knew he had a newer item but two bidders convinced themselves otherwise.

A very common MO on eBay these days, unfortunately.

DeMar Mfg. Co. and the backwards pennant
 

Ah, DeMar Mfg. Co. I did a little research on this company a few months ago when I was writing that piece on Trench Mfg. Co. because both were Buffalo, NY based.

DeMar actually pre-dates Trench. I found some references to their existence as a felt novelty maker as early as 1915, or five years before Trench was founded. In 1917 they relocated from 170 Oak St. to 270 N. Division St. As far as I know the two companies were never related.

I've seen maybe a half dozen or so pennants bearing their label. All were travel/souvenir pennants, typically with a city name sewn across them--and, from spine to tip, I might add.

For that reason, for better or worse, I am fairly confident this was not sold as a Pirates baseball pennant. But, man it'd look cool when surrounded by some Pirates memorabilia....

This particular style, where the lettering goes from tip to spine, was offered by DeMar and other manufacturers of the day. It doesn't seem like it was very popular. (Unless maybe the consumer was dyslexic?) But, you will find this style offered in vintage felt novelty catalogues from that era. Here's an example of one, designated as "R-1", offered by the Arthur Mfg. Co. in Lowville, NY ca. 1925:

Some more great research... many thanks!

Circa 1910 Kalamazoo Kazoos pennant
 

Picked this up yesterday at an antique show. I ended up going late so expectations were low. At the last table, I saw a pile of old pennants, mostly college and points of interest. From the what I can tell, this is a 1910 Kalamazoo Kazoos minor league pennant from the Southern Michigan League. Pennant is big 14x34 inches. Does anyone have any info on this? Really couldn’t find much.

Very cool Kazooz pennant. Are you convinced it’s vintage? It looks almost to good to be true, although I can’t really imagine anyone doing repros of the Southern Michigan League.

There are some condition issues, with a small hole underneath So Mich League and there are pin holes. The felt is soft and thick. Overall the condition is really good. Would seem odd that someone repro’ed it. Any signs to look for?

Forgot I had this pennant:

Attachment 341512

Attachment 341513

It’s probably legit. It seems to be in fantastic shape for something over 100 years old. Congrats!

DeMar Mfg. Co. and the backwards pennant
 

Found a little more info on DeMar Mfg. Co....

DeMar appears to have incorporated in 1911. It was founded in Buffalo, NY by Clifford E. DeMar, Elizabeth A. Winship, and Jessamine M. Davis. When it first opened it was located at 109 Oak St. inside the H.D. Taylor Building, a much larger manufacturer of automotive components.

In those early days they were having trouble finding sewing machine operators and routinely advertised in the classifieds for such labor.

By 1914 Clifford DeMar apparently skipped town, leaving some of his creditors (perhaps even Ms. Winship and Davis) high and dry. Back then there were no credit bureaus like Experian. There were, however, "credit men" whose job it was to keep track of debtors in their area and publish their names in annual publications, such as the Bulletin of National Association of Credit Men. Mr. DeMar's name appears in both the 1914 and 1915 editions of the above publication as a missing debtor. Such notoriety was intended to warn others that men like him were too risky to lend money to.

But DeMar Mfg. Co. continued on without its namesake. In 1917 they were still making pennants and other novelty items. Evidently the company was doing well without Mr. DeMar, as they had moved out of the Taylor Building to some new digs up the street: first 170 Oak St; then 270 N. Division St.

It doesn't look like the company survived the Great Depression. And, it seems their pennants were limited to travel and collegiate pennants only.

Really enjoying these minor league pennants ... here’s one of my favorites ... does anyone recognize the graphic (besides the bison head)?

That’s a nice pennant. Is there a tag on the back?

Looks like Trench recycled their Fenway Park artwork for Offerman Stadium!

Yep! Exact same graphic as Red Sox’ Fenway.

If there was a tag, it is no longer there.

49ers 1981
 

On the new side for this thread... I recently picked up two less common 1981 49ers pennants. You have to laugh a bit at the Western Division Champions pennant. It is as if they did not expect to win any playoff games and were just really excited about winning the divsion. They had been pretty bad at the end of the 1970s, so I get it. It must not have had a very long shelf life, as NFC Champions and Super Bowl Champions pennants followed over the next few weeks (some in great number)

I've also posted pics of two 1981 49ers pennants that I am still chasing (if anyone happens to have them)

Funny...I almost bought that 1981 NFC West Champs pennant last week. There's one for the Bengals that year too so I'm wondering if they made those for the Super Bowl participants. I haven't seen any other teams from 1981.

There is a similar Eagles pennant from 1980 (Super Bowl participant that year) but I don't think I've seen one for their opponent, the Oakland Raiders.

Your NFC Champs pennant if very cool and very rare. But the roster pennant you pictured is near impossible. I've had that one my radar for years and have never seen one.

Great Kazooz Pennant! Really nice Antique Show Find, and possibly a lone survivor.

Thought you might find it interesting that the same leaping Fielder image was used for an early Teens White Sox Pennant. Here's one from my collection that has the same Fielder, but in color and with a Baseball coming towards his glove. This pennant is oversized as well. Enjoy!

Thanks for letting the division champs pennant fall to me. I like the combination of it being relatively rare and relatively cheap. It did get shipped as pennant oragami, which was a bit of a bummer. At least it did not cost much.

Maybe someone with the roster pennant will see that both you and I want it and will put one (or two) up for sale.

Thanks for posting. That pennant is amazing. Is there a tag on the back? Guessing it could have been made by the same company. Also, did you get it professionally framed? Thinking that’s my only choice as it won’t fit in the standard pennant sleeves.

It came framed, from an auction house. I have not taken it apart to see if there is a tag on the reverse, but would guess there most likely is.

I have framed all of my oversized pennants for that very reason... no manufactured sleeves/covers will fit!

Someone (Mark?) said those standard frames made to hold (3) 8x10’s work for pennants, when you throw away the mat. That may be standard 12x30 pennants, though. :confused:

The fielder is Frank Chance, based on an image by Francis P. Burke.

Here is Frank Chance. The image is from either 1901, 1902, or 1904.

Paul:
That is awesome information... very cool that the portrayal is Frank Chance. Many thanks for that info!

Rob:
That's right.... the Aaron Bros. Frames that hold three 8 X 10s horizontally, work great for most standard size pennants. And while the 36" length sometimes works for oversized pennants, the 13" width always falls a bit short of accommodating the height.

Lelands - Wow!
 

I won nothing, but there were some big prices realized on pennants in last night's Lelands Auction. Really strong competition for most pennants (of which there were many...)

But this one really caught my eye.... Over $12,000 for this All Star Pennant...

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=90401


I bet the consignor treats himself to a nice dinner tonight! :rolleyes:

Wow. I was surfing through prices realized for items I was interested in, but didn’t see that. I have not seen that pennant before, but that price is crazy. Obviously someone is happy (other than Josh) to have won it and sold it. Leland’s always has good variety of stuff from all sports and gets good action.

Those prices were all through the roof! $500+ for the Dodgers bum pennant ... that has been repaired??? Over a grand for the not-uncommon ‘51 ASG pennant? Wow

I have been finding more football than baseball lately for some reason. These are two of my more recent pick-ups!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a59f652a0d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...31e8efcfcf.jpg

The Packers is fantastic!

Erik,
Those are both great pennants. That packers one would bring big $

Especially since they didn't win the Championship in 1960. :confused:

Despite this "imperfection", I'd be happy to take it off your hands Erik. :D

Love the 1930s artwork on the Packers pennant, but it's strange they used that.

I don’t think they had a #32, either.

and they didn't wear leather helmets in 1960. Wow...Quality control took the day off on this one. ;)

Astros pennant
 

I was wondering what people think about the possibility of the attached pennant being a Houston Astros pennant. It has been listed on ebay a few times without anyone buying, so I don't think I am outing anything.

Argument for Astros: see the attached picture of one of the Astros hats from 1965 spring training. The star on the hat is a pretty close match. And many other Astros logos have a star (often with something over it). So, star = Astros is not totally out there. And I've never seen a star like this associated with the university of Houston.

Argument against Astros: It doesn't say Astros anywhere. Texas is the lone star state, so something with a single star from Texas doesn't have to mean Astros.

I have seen this pennant wtih red felt and black felt. Not Astros colors, but there are a lot of Houston Colt 45s pennants with red or black felt.

I'm curious to hear what people think.

Great question....

This one could truly go either way. I tend to stay away from this generic type, just because I like to KNOW that it's baseball-related. But it could indeed be an Astros Pennant.

50/50 in my book. :confused:

I'd lean not Astros. The star in circle logo is seen all over Texas and to me the circle is too prominent in the pennant to be associated with the Astros. Did they ever have a logo with a circle that thick?

I have always believed that is an Astros pennant. I believe I had this same conversation with Ron Cunningham who is a pennant dealer from Texas and I think he said it was a logo they used their first year. You don’t see it very often, but I also have that pennant. Obviously it could go either way, but I trusted the info I got and seeing the photo you’ve shown it makes me believe even more this is true.

I don't know, one way or the other, on that Houston pennant but the font reminds me of this one. Do you know if it's full or 3/4 size? Plus, I would expect a "travel pennant" to have some local attractions on it. Like Mark, I'm 50/50 on it.

I'm 60/40 it's a city pennant. Then again, I tend to side on travel pennant when there's no team name or graphic related to the sport.

<a href="http://imgbox.com/d5OJG82M" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/e0/43/d5OJG82M_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>

<a href="http://imgbox.com/bTSp1txl" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/9e/b1/bTSp1txl_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>

<a href="http://imgbox.com/D3aPJbRv" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/38/b3/D3aPJbRv_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/z8qbM22y" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/12/c7/z8qbM22y_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/aqV5VKlx" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/68/3c/aqV5VKlx_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/HdSguEzR" target="_blank"><img src="https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/e3/e2/HdSguEzR_t.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/NKecdnAc" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/14/c6/NKecdnAc_o.png" alt="image host"/></a>
<a href="http://imgbox.com/Xf3ZaevO" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/44/68/Xf3ZaevO_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>

Gotta find a photo match from a game....

Interesting that the Houston mini pennant is the only one that lists a city without a team name (and has a star).

Fballguy makes a good point about the star with circle being a common symbol/sign in Texas. I guess the question is whether the Astros appropriated that symbol during their first year and someone put it on a pennant. The star does seem to match the hat, but I've never seen an Astros item with the star and a circle. The hat came with both an white star version and an orange hat version (to match that mini pennant).

This is a subject that's always interested me and here's one that I believe to be a Reds pennant for obvious reasons, even though I have no way of proving it at this point...

If I remember correctly it has something to do with them not having a logo early and used these more generic items for promotion. I may be completely wrong, but for some reason that sticks out in my memory.

Even though I wouldn't touch D**gers stuff with a 10 foot pole, I was watching this. It went for $168.50. I wonder if it's related to my Giants photo pennant? Mine is full size; not sure about the D**gers version.

Dodgers version is smaller. They came from a series sold here in Minnesota and was part of the same group that includes a lot of the Twins ones from the 60’s. I have a Mickey Mantle and there is a Reggie Jackson. Both are very rare. The Dodgers and Twins are a little more common with the Twins being the most common. There are some very rare North Stars and Packers versions as well.

Your San Fran pennant is very rare. I have never seen it before.

I had never seen it before, either. The guy I got it from said he found it in a shed in Winona, MN.

There are Vikings too. A Tommy Mason pennant sold for over $1,300 on Ebay about a year ago.

Winona is where they were made.

There are more than what I listed, but they are few and far between. Many I would say are one of a kind. I buy and sell pennants in Minnesota and I consider most to be very rare.

ASCO, Inc.
 

Rob: I'm glad I didn't lose out on that Koufax pennant to a Giant fan so, thanks for staying away :p

Both your photo-less Giants pennant and the Koufax photo pennant were made by ASCO, located in Winona, MN.

Allow me to piggy back on Duluth Eskimo's earlier comments, which I completely agree with: ASCO began making pennants when the Senators moved to Minnesota to become the Twins, around 1960. They spent most of the decade focusing on Minnesota teams; however, they did make some Dodger pennants because the Twins played the Dodgers in the '65 series, and I suppose they knew there'd be some demand for these products from visiting fans.

ASCO didn't invent the photo pennant; but, they may deserve credit for first modifying the typical team photo that Trench and others were offering into the individual player layout.

These individual player photo pennants are highly collectible and rare. The problem is ASCO did not seem to affix the photos to the felt as well as Trench. Consequently, many of their photo pennants are, today, sans photo. Which sucks because without the original photo, it's hard to say what these are worth.

Anyway, I plan to write a piece on ASCO in the coming weeks for those that care to learn more about their story, products, and their contributions to the hobby.

Looking forward to it, Domer!! ^^^

My Giants example was one of the few times I've been in the right place at the right time. I got it BIN for $70, shortly after it was posted. I have a "frenemy" who would have snagged it for sure, had he seen it first. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I almost think mine could be a never mass produced prototype. Here's a pic of it, re-imagined with a Mays photo.

Astros pennant
 

Happy to add the top Astros batter pennant, which appears to be a knock off of the typical batter pennant (pictured below it). That "typical" batter played for the Astros, Colt 45s, and the Giants (and other teams too). This new one is much thinner, rather fragile, and is somewhat transparent when held up to the light.

The seller had a number of what I believe to be difficult to find pennants from this era including the Phillies pennant pictured below (bought by someone else).

Curious to hear if anyone has info about this series. And if there might be an SF Giants pennant that goes with the series (Oooribay?).

I’ve never seen a Giants with that variation of the LH batter.

Get the iron for those Phillies tassels! Dirty but cool pennant.

Nice score on the Astros Pennant. I've never seen that particular version of the Batter either.

I've seen the Phillies, but only 3-4 times in 25+ years of collecting this stuff. Both are super rare and unique. Congrats!

Thanks, guys. Just to be clear, I didn't buy the Phillies pennant, although I thought about it. It looked so puritanical. My kids would probably have been scared of it.

I've attached pics of the Cardinals (sold to not me) and Reds (still for sale as I write this) pennants. Not sure if these are all from the same series or not. Some have tassles, some don't. They all seem to be made of the same very thin (with strings) fabric.

A question for either of the Robs...

Regarding that Reds Pennant pictured above... Do you think it would bleach successfully? I know the white cloth felt is a good medium for bleach, but seem to recall hearing problems with red paint bleeding on to the white felt.

Would love to grab that Reds pennant, but only if it would clean up ok.

Thanks!

Mark, I successfully cleaned up this 1961 picture pennant, the pic was taken from an angle to avoid glare. The letters are red felt, though. I did the same to a ‘64 pennant, with red screen-paint ... with less success, but still, it didn’t run.

Pic:

Mark...We're sharing a brain. I studied it last night after I read Marc's post. I think with a gradual approach using diluted bleach it would be ok. Maybe start 60/40 water to bleach mix and see how it responds.

The price was a little higher than I wanted to spend on an experiment. Thought of sending him a message to see if he'd take $50...but ultimately decided to pass. I think it would turn out great. Make friends with the guy and see if he'll come down some. :D

Let me know what you decide...I'm bored and want to experiment so I may take a flier if you don't. But I'm not a "baseball guy" per se....so rather it go to someone who is.

OK... I did it. $50 was my top limit as well, and I shot him an offer (even though he has no Best Offer option listed). I'm probably not as good at bleaching as you, Rob, Rob and Greg.... but will try the 60/40 mixture, assuming he accepts the $50. I'll post "before and after" pics, if so. If he rejects it, I'll walk away from it, and not negotiate any further.

Rob... If your boredom continues, and you want an "experiment" to take on, there are a couple more Reds Pennants that appear very bleachable and are well below market value...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-1961-...!-1:rk:76:pf:0

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-196...Ni6:rk:94:pf:0

Seller was a nice guy, and accepted the $50. Should be a fun experiment, and I'll post the "before and after" results once I have it in-hand.

There's some blue stuff on the white felt that scares me a bit. :eek:

I don't want to talk you out of it, but I ruined this one. My only failure to date. The red batter? He's now a pink blur. What makes me mad is that it wasn't all that bad to begin with.

Congrats Mark! Glad you got it. Will be a fun experiment. A few tips...

I'd attack this one from the back. Hang the pennant vertically, face down so you're spraying the back of the pennant. I lean the bottom of a shallow, plastic storage bin against the wall and tape the pennant inside with painters tape so it's hanging down inside the bin. That way any excess water/bleach runs off. Then I'd mist the back of the pennant using a spray bottle. Don't saturate. Do a little at a time until it starts to soak through...checking the results periodically. I'd give it a good misting then let it sit for 5 minute before turning it around and checking the results. It will get whiter over time. It's not always instantaneous. Once you get a feel for the color fastness of the red paint, you can increase as needed. Don't be in a hurry. Be patient.

If the blue is stubborn, I'd probably hit that directly from the front. You can use an old, rigid pennant holder (I'm sure you have one laying around :D) to create a barrier between the stained area of the pennant and the graphics. Then you can spray liberally without worrying about hitting the paint directly. Imagine a clear, plastic wall between where you are spraying and the graphics.

In case of emergency...

I'd also have a second spray bottle with straight water. If you notice the red is running, the race is on. You have to throw caution to the wind at this point and hit the running area with water...saturate the bleeding area (use a stream so you can focus on your target area more precisely) to get that excess red paint to run completely off the pennant. It will run off without staining...and if you're using just water, the bleeding should stop. Just keep hitting with water until you see no more bleeding and all of the red run off has been washed away.

The disclaimer...

See Rob's post above. There's always the chance you may be screwed. :p

Good luck!

Well thanks for the pep talk and good advice. I feel like Sly Stallone to your Burgess Meredith. It's gonna be a knock down-drag out fight...

I'm going for it like Rocky did against Apollo Creed, with spray bottles in each hand. And if the "bleeding" becomes too much, I will use pure water to halt the fight. I do not see it going 15 rounds, and do not predict a knockout either way. Odds are, it will be a split decision, with the pennant emerging a bit better, but not perfect.

I'm nervous and punch drunk, but my OCD won't let me live with that pennant, bruised and beaten as it currently is. And even if I go down for the count, I've only been sucker-punched for $55 bucks! It could be an epic bout.

I sure hope nobody reads this... might be my worst post ever :o

In all seriousness... that red paint scares me, as the color looks exactly the same as the failed Giants Pennant... same type of dull brick red.

Rob-

Regarding your advice, I do have a question... I was going to tape off the red spine, as I don't want the bleach to "whiten" the red strip. But if I were to spray on the bleach from behind, wouldn't it infiltrate through from the back, and cause the red spine to fade?

I suppose I could tape it off vertically on the back side as well, but seems like that would create a tell-tale line. Just want to be sure I'm clear on how to handle this part.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide!

Also, might be a good idea to warm up by beating your meat (like Rocky) for at least 15 minutes before the battle. And remember “women weaken pennants!”

You’ve got a couple of options regarding the spine area. If you’re taping the pennant to hang it, you’re going to have to address that area separately regardless because some part of that area will be protected under tape.

1) The best option in my opinion is to remove the spine and once done with the bleaching process, take it to a tailor or seamstress to have it put back on. Should cost about $10. They can even line up the stitching in the existing holes so you can’t tell it was removed.

or

2) Protect the spine with tape for the spraying process. Then once pennant has dried, lay it on a table or bench and gently hand paint the area from behind with your mixture, being careful not to soak through. I’ve done it with a Q-Tip. Tedious but works. The trick is to only apply enough to address the surface and not soak through.

You are the undisputed "Rembrandt" of Pennant restoration. :rolleyes:

I'm seeing stains in tones of grey, brown, red and blue all on this pennant, so it will be an excellent test of the bleaching process. Since it's a whopping $55 investment, I'm gonna fight this one solo (no seamstress).

Many thanks, and I'll stop posting now, as I'm sure we've bored most people to death with this bleach banter. Next post will be the "before and after" results.

Here you go Mark...Thought you might want to train with Butkus before the main event.

<a href="http://imgbox.com/9z8Q1Ays" target="_blank"><img src="https://images2.imgbox.com/98/f6/9z8Q1Ays_o.jpg" alt="image host"/></a>

Good luck! Like Louis CK...I'll be pulling for ya!

Are you kidding? When I wake up, I immediately check my email and then "Hey pennant guys" … I am the exact opposite of bored by this discussion! I look forward to you posting the results and hope for the best.