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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Paging thru my copy of Sold American!....F.R. Penn is described as a "plugmaking subsidiary" that made Penn's Natural, Red J, and Gold Crumbs. Penn's No. 1 also seems to have been produced as plug and smoking tobacco and there is a railcar pictures describing Gold Crumbs as smoking tobacco as well. There were four primary subsidiaries in the plug group (chewing tobacco)and Penn seems to have been the smallest.<br><br>The most unfortunates parts of this book are the lack of any real emphasis on the cards and the glossing over of the breakup in 1911. Not unexpected for a book produced for ATC's 50th anniversary though.<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Double post<br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Let us see what we have learned here. Early in 1910 national newspaper's were reporting of<br> the Ty Cobb "pipe" tobacco.<br><br>The tin advertises Granulated Cut Plug Tobacco; and, that certainly works for pipe tobacco.<br> The artwork on this Ty Cobb tin is borrowed from the T206 Cobb (bat on shoulder) card......<br>issued in 1909.<br><br><img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/cobbatsovereign150.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><br><br>However, the picture on the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card is the RED portrait version.<br><br>That tells us that this Ty Cobb back card most likely was NOT inserted in this tobacco tin....<br>as, the T206 Red portrait Cobb was not issued until the Summer of 1910. And, I think we can<br> assume that the same printing plate was used to produce the front of the Ty Cobb back card.<br><br>So, my guess is that the Ty Cobb back card stands alone as an advertising premium for the<br> Ty Cobb pipe tobacco. And, that it was privately distributed in limited quantities in late 1910<br> or early 1911, concurrent with the T206 Red portrait Ty Cobb card. Which was issued during<br> this period with 24 different T-backs (more than any other T206 Subject).<br><br>The Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card would then be the 25th back on Cobb's Red portrait cards. Having<br> said that; though, I am not inferring that this card is part of the T206 set. <br> <br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I'm starting to believe....<br><br>That perhaps the ty cobb/ty cobb was not produced as a give away to the public (thousands would have needed to be produced and many more would have survived), but rather as a limited production marketing issue sent direct to drug stores/tobacconists of the era to announce the coming of a new brand.<br>My theory goes the idea for Ty Cobb branded tobacco was thrown up internally at ATC, and 50-100 or so tins were lithographed with his bat on image for 'sampling' or product announcement to local Georgia businesses. What better place to kick start the product, and with the idea of selling nationally thereafter (thus the ads in papers across the country). Because of the wide popularity and success of tobacco cards amongst children and Adults, it was decided that a small run of Cobb branded backs on his red portrait card would be produced to include as a sweetner or gift to enthuse business owners to carry and promote the brand.<br>The mismatch in visage between tin and card was likely an oversight of communication between the project manager given the task at ATC and the printer, or not considered overly important when the card itself was not planned as a mass give-away. And there would always be enough time if the feedback was sufficiently positive to create a matched product, if the inserting of a card in pocket tin tobacco made sense.<br><br>When the break up of ATC happened the idea to go ahead with Ty Cobb tobacco died, and thus many of the recipients of the sample product simply threw away the marketing pieces because there was no real reason to keep them around.<br><br>Only a lucky few were kept by some fans of the day, and that's what we are left with now.<br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>Snuff, plug, and other minor tobacco manufacturers were slowly being bought up by the ATC up until the breakup. Cards had already been proven a successful marketing tool. Most of their production was in cigarettes but they were diversifying as they grew, They decided to name a brand after a southern superstar baseball player. It was a relatively new (and short lived) "granulated plug tobacco" that could be smoked in a pipe (least popular mode after snuff of ingesting tobacco in the period) or rolled in a cigarette. They designed a tin showing him with a bat on pose and so a portrait image was suggested for the card to differentiate it from the image on the tin - or as the manufacture and sale of these minor types of tobacco products came with small margins - perhaps there were extra sheets laying around and they just used them. I personally would have switched the two images <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">. Maybe as few as 2 sheets might have been produced and but a handful of tins as they planned to introduce the brand. We have no evidence of the tin with tobacco actually ON the shelves.....<br>In reviewing a non-glossy uncut sheet they were presenting - perhaps someone opined that a glossy front might protect the card (they already had experience with Polar) from the product and they made at least one (if in fact examples in both states exist as suggested earlier). The card after all was an important vehicle to carry their advertising message. I would guess that following their "notices" in the rags they just abandoned the plan to make it. Hundreds and probably thousands of brands never made it to market. The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">.<br>Things like the find of 5 of these rare cards found in one place and at one time while nearly absent in the marketplace - makes the idea that they were never distributed ring more true for me. Perhaps those and the other examples survived just as many printer's scraps and other annomalies do today - 100 or so years later - cut from the sheets and saved by someone for love of a peach.<br><br>I think it's a card.<br>I don't think it's a T206 as I'm not sure the category itself is well defined.<br>I don't think it was ever IN a tin.<br>I think it was planned to put it in the tin.<br>I don't think the Pirate cards were ever distributed either.....
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I'm curious as to why you are saying this ?........<br><br>" The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911. "<br><br><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>a dangerous undertaking - that if it were closer to the dissolution of the trust - then it would be more credible perhaps that the factory 33 became a part of the ATC later into the distribution of the cards (perhaps already declining) - the idea came about for the cards - and then with the dissolution - the Adams company gets taken over by different owners/management or sumptin and aborted the idea of the brand. It may even have happened that in 1910 they were already part of the ATC - sold before the breakup and just as the brand was about to go into production - the idea is aborted for legal or other reasons. <br>If I accept that the brand wasn't actually sold over the counter - I've always strongly believed it has to be classified on it's own - as it wasn't an item distributed in the intended fashion. For me (minority view I'm sure) these might not even be "cards"......<br><br>I am really new to the T issues - just wetting my whistle. At this point I'm gonna sit back and listen more - while I look over some of the great reference reading Richard Rubin sent me - as well as the few sites devoted to the subject - and finally the greally great threads you and a few others have presented. I'm really quite busy trying to tie down the Marquis of Lorne card and Between the Acts distribution on the N/S side. Even with no life there's no time to get it all done.<br><br>I did find one of the Bray articles interesting where it suggested the distribution of a typical series was often limited to but a few weeks. It certainly would make sense in the framework of later 19th century inserts - do you think it held true for most of the 1910 releases??<br><br>edited to try and clean some gramatical errors - apologize that it's some late night rambling......
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JIM B<br><br>I think this is the Ty Cobb thread you just requested in a new thread to be brought back up to the top.<br><br>You're welcome,<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Shawn</b><p>I am not sure what the article below is about, because I do not have a subscription to the site... I sure would like to read it though! I have noticed that the "Ty Cobb" brand advertisements are prodominately in the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Ga. The months seem to be Feb. and Mar. of 1910. If someone has a subscription to genealogybank.com, it would be nice to see some of the full adds. (there seems to be some full page adds)<br><br> <br>"Macon Weekly Telegraph" 1910<br><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tcobb.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/cutplug1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tyhomerun1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tymakeitright1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/typackage1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/typure1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tyright1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tysmile1.jpg" alt="[linked image]"><br><br><img src="http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc139/smokelessjoe/Baseball/tysmooth1.jpg" alt="[linked image]">
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>packs</b><p>Here's my opinion:<br><br>It's a cool card that I would love to own.<br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Nice stuff.....thanks for posting.<br><br><br>Interesting headline on one those clippings......<br><br>" TY COBB, Jr., SENDS OUT CARD TO HIS ADMIRERS "<br><br>After reading this, no wonder there are only 12 (or 14) Ty Cobb (back) cards that've been found.<br><br>He only had about a dozen (or so) "admirer's"....<img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif"><br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>SHAWN<br><br>Another adv. headline...."Ty Cobb is the home run tobacco."<br><br>That is interesting, Cobb was not known for hitting HR's back in 1910. Cobb, in order to compete<br> with Babe Ruth, finally started "putting the wood" to the ball when Babe Ruth came along in 1915.<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Hey JIM B<br><br>What do you make of all the new information regarding the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card, that has come to light in this thread ?<br><br>I think you'll agree, that it is the most progress we have made in unraveling the mystery of this card....to date.<br><br>TED Z<br><br>
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