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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Show me one overprint that goes into the blank space like the bad looking one.

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Posted By: <b>Shawn</b><p>Leon,<br><br><br><br>You are changing your statement now. You did not mention anything about the &quot;blank space&quot;, but I do agree with you on that. I have not seen any stamps shifted over that much, though all of them are NOT in the exact same spot. <br><br><br><br>Perhaps I did not fully understand what you meant by &quot;whichever one it is, positioned the same way...starting at the list of players&quot;, I thought you were talking about which end the stamp was placed on. Reading from left to right, most of the stamps are started at the top of the card. The two I mentioned plus the one in question are started at the bottom of the card. I may have this reversed, because I do not have the cards in hand. But I think you know what I mean.<br><br><br><br>Sorry if there was confusion on my part.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed.<br><br>The E98's are handstamped.<br><br>Agree with Tim Kindler, all the E98's Old Put's run the same direction, I have not seen one the opposite way.<br><br>Scott

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Actually it was me that changed a little bit on that issue. The bottom line is that when you look at ALL OF THE KNOW exemplars they are all fairly well centered. The bad looking one isn't. The bad looking one came with a fake Old Put, the bad looking one has black ink, the bad looking one came from Ohio....the bad looking one just looks fake.....I have handled enough of all types of pre war cards to know that when something doesn't look and feel right it usually isn't. I have sent numerous cards to SGC, with the expectation they weren't good, and they weren't. For the record I have also seen a few variations of some of the printing on some good E94 overprint expamples...but never have I seen such a poor looking one as the one we are talking about....<br><br>The one exception to these E94 Overprints are the Blomes. I do think those are a little different than the others. .....hope this helps.....

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>So we all agree the E98 Old Put is a fake. Good. The E94 is troubling. The reason I said the card was authentic but not the overprint was based on the fact I have owned/own several E94 overprints and they are all blue or red. I have never seen one with that color before. The font is a red flag but that aside, the color of the overprint is what bothers me. <br>Like a previous poster, I sold all my Old Puts because the thought of someone making a stamp and forging the overprint was too scary. (Well all except the Clarke which UPS lost for me and which scan has been used for years in the SCD book. Haven't checked this year to see if it is still there.) <img src="/images/sad.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="sad.gif">

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Posted By: <b>Shawn</b><p>Leon,<br><br>You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake.<br>But:<br>1. Your &quot;Oh You Fan&quot; is the only one known<br>2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos<br>3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question &quot;The George Close Co&quot; portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat?<br>4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a &quot;lot&quot; of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows?<br><br><br>

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>&quot;The E94's are a factory printed overprint that was sheet fed.&quot;<br><br>Scott - this is interesting. How do you know this?<br><br><br>

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I've never closely followed these stamped cards, but there are standard methods for identifying prints made from the same printing plate-- stamp in this case. It involves close examination of the printing under very high magnification. Printing plates have minute finger prints that are lost if the plate is reproduced or copied. This means if you have an overprinted card that you know is genuine (ala, it's been around a long time), you can identify overprints made from the same stamp. If the original stamp is no longer around (assumption)-- fakes are made with a new stamp--, you can definitively identify original stamps.<br><br>Of course, many copied stamps will be dubious and different to the naked eye anyway.<br><br>In short, if you can identify stamps that are known to be genuine and old, you can create a family tree from there. I don't believe they will be lost in a sea of fakes.<br><br>Also, you can test how long ink has been on paper, which is a standard and common forensic test. It is known the rates at which various inks dry, and by testing how dry is the ink, you can guestimate how long the ink has been on the paper. It's a relatively simple, straight foreword test and the difference between 90 years ago and 1 year ago would be pretty obvious. In disputed will court cases, they might want to identify the exact year brand and make of the pen used (and the FBI can do this!)-- but with a questioned stamp on a baseball card, you simply have to determine that it's been there for a good long while to be confident in the authenticity. <br><br>As already noted more than once in this thread, if there is a wave of very recent fakes, provenance establishing a card has been around since before the wave is helpful and practical evidence. Sales documentation establishing that the card was around 10 years ago doesn't prove the stamp 100 years old, but will make the owner and buyer more comfortable-- especially if faking Old Put stamps is a thing that started just this year.<br><br>Baseball card collectors often wonder aloud why anyone would pay extra for a card because it came a famous old timer collection. This thread has shown how provenance can be significant with baseball cards. Who wouldn't love right now to have documentation that their Old Put belonged to Burdick, or was purchased from the Larry Frisch catalog in 1975?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I said I was done but what the heck....it's still fun debating. <br><br>Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure...<br><br><br>Shawn- You said and my responses,.....<br><br><br>You have very legitimate points, and perhaps you are right and it is a fake. <br>But: <br>1. Your &quot;Oh You Fan&quot; is the only one known <br><br>Yes, it's the only one known. It came from Tom B at a National...I think he paid about 250 each for 2 of them (different stamps) a few minutes earlier and Scott and I both bought one........but at that kind of money it's hardly a model for scamming profitability. <br><br><br>2. As you can see, the Close Co. used several different versions, formats, Fonts and colors with there overprint logos <br><br>True- and if you look closely this new example has the company in big letters while all of the others are small letters<br><br>3. Coincidently, there is an ad that matches the exact same lettering style on the card in question &quot;The George Close Co&quot; portion, but is not seen on any of the other cards. Someone just pulled it out of a hat? <br><br>Close Company had lots of advertising and lots of different fonts. Anyone can go to my site and see several different Close Company ad pieces/boxes/tins/letters........You ever do an internet search? I wouldn't call it pulling out of a hat...but that's just me. <br><br>4. I think what we are dealing with here is someone who bought a &quot;lot&quot; of overprint and stamp cards, not really knowing what they were doing... In doing this perhaps he bought some fakes and real ones. But who knows? <br><br>I think we are dealing with a scammer and someone trying to pull some fraud on us. Many times they think they will get over.....This board has uncovered bigger scammers than this. When you see an item that is questionable on ebay one of the first things we do is see what other things the seller is selling or buying. Today I saw a cool Babe Ruth card with a cool stamp on back. I was a bit excited. I clicked on the other things the seller was selling....right next to it was a fake M101/5 Ruth......I wasn't as excited anymore....It's experience ....Old Put bad....never before seen E94 Overprint right next to it.....same as the Ruth on ebay...<br><br><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/BB-Card-Babe-Ruth-Yankees-Spanky-s-Hot-Dog_W0QQitemZ310106566572" target="_new">http://cgi.ebay.com/BB-Card-Babe-Ruth-Yankees-Spanky-s-Hot-Dog_W0QQitemZ310106566572</a>

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>Well did I read it right that the seller has now returned what he bought from Manos and has himself went away? If thats the case then it doesn't even seem the seller had much confidence in this being legit.

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Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>that's an interesting theory by scott...but looking at the available scans some stamp goes left to right while a few right to left (i'm comparing leon's blome's/your out/oppie dildock to the ocb's scans). so it's possible one sheet may go one way and another sheet goes the other, but that would mean more examples than what we've discovered so far.

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Posted By: <b>Shawn</b><p>Leon,<br><br>Thank you for your input. I am well aware of many different scammers and different types of fake cards. And believe me, there is not much out there that makes me madder than someone trying to scam me or anyone else. I have no interest in the &quot;Oh You Fan&quot; card, nor will I ever. I do not own or will ever own a stamped or overprint card on purpose. I have to say though, the overprint just seems right to me? Hopefully I am wrong in my opinion, and I just end up looking like a idiot:) I am not the brightest guy on the block, but if I am going to make a fake I am going to make one that looks like the others. Also, because you own a fake does not make all of your other cards fake too. Leon, as many cards you have owned I would venture to say a few have come across your hands. This hobby is just to popular, that crooks are just bound to jump in! It sucks, thats why knowledge is king! <br><br>Dave,<br>I would probably get rid of the cards myself after reading this thread... I would probably burn um!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>&quot;Rman- I asked Scott the same thing a few minutes ago. His answer was that since all of the known E94 Overprints, until now, are very well centered, then they most likely were not done at random with a free hand. I think that's a good point but not sure... &quot;<br><br>hmmmmm....<br><br>This seems a bit of a stretch to me. Switching plates, inks, etc at the press for different ads? I'm thinking someone with a steady hand at the company. <br><br>I try to put all my stamps straight on my Christmas cards. No one accused me of being an automatic stamping machine <img src="/images/wink.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="wink.gif">

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Overprints aren't for everyone. I happen to collect backs and believe overprints (I don't collect underprints) are really neat and colorful. Much more than common set collecting...but that's what makes this hobby fun. Do what makes you happy. So far I have one email from a board member wanting to sell an Old Put at fair market. I am only in the market for cards that folks think are not good (and I think are) and at prices that reflect that OR for one(s) I don't own. Fair market on all but the Blomes is about $2500 and on the Blomes maybe $800-$1400...depending on grade etc......<br><br>As far as your comment about if you were a scammer you would make a stamp that looked more like another one....well, for ALL OF THOSE collectors that think they are so easy.....show me one. I offer that if it was that easy we would be having this discussion more often and there would be more cards we have this debate over. It seems like the folks who shout the loudest never really have anything to show....Show me the fake stamps and overprints??....anyone, Bueller?....crickets .....chirp chirp....<br><br><br>Also Shawn....you are absolutely correct. I have probably had a a dozen or so counterfeits that I bought unknowingly. I have had about 2-3 that I couldn't return for a refund with a total value of under $400....So I don't think that's too bad. I admit to having learned the hard way a few times....I could be wrong on this E94 but I am not throwing in the towel yet....Lets see what SGC says when they re-evaluate it....Hopefully, Jim or SGC will let us know...

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Scott and Tim,<br><br><br>Leon has an Old Put in his personal collection that runs the opposite way.<br>I've seen another one that is flipped around too. <br><br>Rob

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>That is my question also. From MR Holdings email to me, he stated i was first in line to get the E94 Moore. Well, if the card comes back and SGC says its legit then sell me the card for $1,000. He was ready and willing 2 days ago.<br><br>I have emailed MR Holdings and requested other scans of the 7 cards with other overprints but as i suspected, no reply's.<br><br>Anyway, i suspect like most others that SGC will not be returning the card.

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Again I don't know if this is a question only JC can answer, but wasn't there like 8 or so of the same overprints on his website including an Oh You Fan?<br><br>Were those the same examples as Leon's?<br><br><br><br>Rob

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>Leon...looks like you can make any custom stamp at this link, just make a microsoft word doc. and send upload. I never tried it and don't know how good it will look.<br><br><br><a href="http://orders.rubberstamps.net/FixedSize.aspx?ProductID=IS-16&amp;qty=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://orders.rubberstamps.net/FixedSize.aspx?ProductID=IS-16&amp;qty=1</a>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Mark- I suspect the other 7 will look the same and is the reason we haven't seen them. Also, as for the stamp making. No doubt there are millions of places to get stamps made. I just think they will come out looking like the one in question.....It's the first, and probably not the last, I have seen that I have serious doubts about...and where is the provenance? As Todd pointed out provenance isn't an end all but it sure helps me to know that 8 of my 10 are in Lipset's encyclopedia from 25 yrs ago....Since MR is returning them to Jim I think it will be up to Jim to sell them as he will be the owner....but that is for those guys to say specifically. If it is a good stamp then that is fine with me. As I already have an OH YOU FAN I won't really need it to feel complete <img src="/images/happy.gif" height="14" width="14" alt="happy.gif">....<br><br><br>Rob- I think JC had/has about 6 different and I am sure he didn't have an OH YOU FAN.......He and I used to talk about them all of the time....

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p><br><br>Mark-<br><br>Should probably just consider yourself lucky at this point.

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Posted By: <b>Mark T</b><p>Very, Very true....