OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>James Gallo</b><p>Howard--<br /><br />Rollins last 4 years BA are .289, .290. .277 and last year .296.<br /><br />Polanco .338, .316, .295, .341. However he had a lot of sub .300 years and his average has a swing of 20-30 points from year to year.<br /><br />Rollins may not have hit that 300 mark but he has been much more consistent with only a 5-10 point swing. He also has a team to hit around as opposed to previous years where he had no one. <br /><br />Did I under estimate Polanco some, perhaps but I still wouldn't expect him to hit .340 consistently for the rest of his career.<br /><br />Ruiz is a "rookie" and last year was his first full year. I am not sure why you would see a decline. He is the #1 starting catcher and he has a killer line up to play in. That means he will get more pitches to hit. I saw his defense and offense get better as the season went on. <br /><br />How the hell is Iguchi at a .280 BA a stretch he is a life time .276 hitter and he was on only ok Sox teams in a the Phillies line-up he would hit his .280 or better. The White Sox were horrible last year and he hit .304 with the Phillies. <br /><br />Again with Rowand he is on a line-up where he is going to see more killer pitchers especially batting behind Howard. The 05 and 06 White Sox were not the greatest teams, and he did hit 24 HR in 04.<br /><br /><br />I think your cutting some hairs here.<br /><br /><br />Dan what do you want to bet I am up for it. Total runs, best finish, wins........ You pick the terms and get back to me.<br /><br /><br />Oh and I don't need to get the last word, I had other posters I wante to respond to. <br /><br />Now I will wait for you to set your terms and we can move on.<br /><br />Still nothing to say about the stats though hu?<br /><br />James G<br><br>Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>how about 250.00 on each of the three you mentioned. tHen each player 1-8 100.00. When we are done , i will visit you at the mission and make sure you get a fresh donut.....with creme !

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>you need to quit being a stat guy, other then 3 guys the Phillies suck. You guys play a very week division or simply most of the NL is weak. <br /><br />Granderson<br />Polonco<br />Cabrera<br />Ordonez<br />Sheffield<br />GUillen<br />Renteria<br />Rodriguez<br />Jones............................wowfrickinwee< br /><br />Todd, what is your bet?...the 84 Tigers would not do well against this bunch.<br /><br />

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Joe G.</b><p>I’m not going to get into argument here, just show my support for the recent trades. I, like Dan, am excited for this upcoming season; I too renewed my seats. The Tiger’s offense is going to be something to see. Most everyone is focusing on just Cabrera, forgetting about our other two substantial pick-ups, Renteria & Jones (Jacque Jones). They allow the Tigers to redistribute their talent such that our DH may become the “weakest” bat although I really think Shef will rebound with a healthy shoulder. He spent half of last season with a slow swing due to his injury, committing to pitches he would normally lay off.<br /><br />Consider the following Starting line-up with last years Batting Averages (all of which could repeat or even improve with the better talent top to bottom). Listed from highest batting average to lowest (MLB rank):<br /><br />Magglio Ordonez (RF): .363 (1st)<br />Placido Polanco (2B): .341 (3rd)<br />Edgar Renteria (SS): .332 (8th) - w Braves last year<br />Miguel Cabrera (3B): .320 (17th) - w Marlins last year<br />Curtis Granderson (CF): .302 (32nd)<br />Carlos Guillen (1B): .296 (43rd)<br />Jacque Jones (LF): .285 (80th) - w Cubs last year<br />Ivan Rodriguez (C): .281 (85th)<br />Gary Sheffield (DH): .265 (125th) - however, led team in walks (.378 OBP)<br /><br />Keep in mind there are 30 MLB teams, so on average, the best player on any given team should place in the top 30, the 2nd in the top 60, the 3rd in the top 90 etc. The Tigers are loaded, there will be some very high scoring games. I suspect I’ll be getting a lot of free haircuts from Lady Janes (free haircuts the day after a 10 run game the Tigers win if you can produce a game ticket).<br /><br />The pitching is the big question with plenty of outside factors, most notably injury (so no projections from me). Time will tell, but with better than an average BA of .310 from your starting 9, I like our chances.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br />Joe Gonsowski

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>and I already said I don't care all that much. Still,you'd face Morris in a three game series--I doubt you'd win once, and I'd bet HUGE you wouldn't win a game seven. Pitching beats hitting pretty much every time. The '08 Tigers wouldn't get a sniff after the 6th inning against that '84 bullpen--I don't care what stats you're rolling out. Get some pitching and then start crowing. Todd Jones is a journeyman closer who turns 40 opening month and who has pitched for eight teams in the last 7 years. Does that sound like a guy the league fears? If Zumaya doesn't come back to '06 form and your starters improve, you're looking at winning your games 10-7, and while the Yankees have tried that formula the last several years, it really hasn't worked very well for them come post-season, has it?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>he needs to be traded to Gallos Phillies .Todd, Verlander will be better then Morris. Verlander will now get his chance.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>please post this thread when the great tiger team wins a world series. or gets into the post season <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>please go lay down and go to bed and quit hijacking a thread that doesnt interest you.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Every time Jones comes into a game I have to turn off the TV. I really thought Zumaya would be closing by now, except got hurt playing too much Guitar Hero and now he injures himself moving boxes at his house. This is a worrisome trend to say the least. I think Verlander has a chance to win 25 games if their lineup stays healthy all year and if he can dominate in the postseason ala Beckett(big if), "we" have a good chance of beating the Sox.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Dan K., keep up the barrage, you are doing a GREAT job?<br /><br />Go Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons, sorry Lions.<br /><br />Joe<br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>HEY my buddy Dan-<br><br><br>I will give you 10-1 odds that the Tigers will not win the WS next year. Kenny Rogers cannot hold Tudors jock......besides, he will get hurt. Zumbabway or whatever his name is will come back only to get hurt playing Halo 3, Verlander and Willis will be good but Verlander lacks experience. They are probably the best talented team in the league overall, but they just dont have what it takes to win it all. Sorry to burst your bubble, cause I really really like you. Rodney needs to learn to handle some situations better, and middle relief needs to pull through......Otherwise I cannot see them keeping up with likes of Red Sox. Let me know how much you want in for.<br><br><br>Jason<br><br>P.S. added.....just to let you know, I would actually like to see them win it all. I just do not think they will do it. Takes more than all the talent to win a championship. Maybe in 3-4 more years. They do need to keep the video games away from Zamboogla. Maybe fine him $100K everytime he is caught with a PS3 or X box in his hotel room.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>The great thing about the "hot stove" season is that hope springs eternal. I wonder if any teams other than the Tigers and Phillies will even bother showing up for spring training next year?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>my ole buddy....you have some good humor there , but....as far as it goes.Tudor pitched how long?....til he was how old? Great command pitchers THAT KNOW HOW TO PITCH, can go long time. Satchel Paige went for how long? Arent you closer to KC then STl ?...is that when PAtek was your hero? Kc got there big gun this year, uh who was it.....uh the big whopper bopper ,uh Jose Guillen on roids?<br /><br />Suspended first 15 or 25, ah he will still lead your favorites in HR's with what 18?....oh boy , yuns in fer a long season.<br /><br />xoxoJAson<br />from Dan

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Swept at home by the vaunted Royals...may want to hold off on the proclamation until they win a game.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No team has ever started 0-4 and won the World Series. Tigers right now are 0-5.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>But there is a truism about the Tigers that many locals know. Never count them out before the kids get out of school for the year. <br /><br />Yeah it's kind of an old wives' tale, but it does often seem that they pick up after school lets out for the year (and, of course, it is getting warmer). Long tradition of slow starts in DTW. Not many 1984-like exceptions.<br /><br />J

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>if they keep Leyland and SHeffield they might not win a game.<br /><br />Leyland blew it last year while being 7-8 games up and started platooning rookies in the of and pitching staff....well either one worked and we didnt make the playoffs. they refused to address the relief pitching and they bat their best hitters (other then Ordonez in the 4 slot) in the 5-6 holes.<br /><br />SHeffield is now a "hack" and a attention grabber ,NY let him go just at the right time.<br /><br />RUmors are that Inge and 2 porspects for Oaklands STreet maybe in the works.Zall i know.<br /><br />We have enough hitting to get relief pitching, wether another team will trade with us will be interesting to see. Zumaya and Rodney are injured and Cruceta has not cleared his Visa.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Barry, I like that.... 0-4. <br /><br />And I think it will remain a truism at the end of the season.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins and always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>E. Angyal</b><p>Seems like some of that money may have been better spent on pitching. Next.........<br /><br />Eric

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>So far they seem to be the greatest team for other AL teams to play...

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Go Sox.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>I hope they haven't scheduled the parade yet.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>April 7th, 2008. A fortuitous day in Tiger baseball. They won't lose today.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Hey I'd take the Tigers without a win over my current SF Giants anyday..Yipee we lost again.<br /><br />Ricky Y

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The Bengals powered up for a total of 5 singles in Tuesday's game with the Red Sox... no runs, though.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Sit back and watch the scoreboard light up like a pinball machine. .235 team BA and 15 runs in 7 games...Outscoring one MLB team and multiple UEFA squads.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>There we go!!!!<br /><br />Glad you Tigers fans got one into the win column. Congratulations.<br /><br />Edgar Renteria, my dear former Cardinal shortstop, had a good night. I'm glad he's on my fantasy team, even if he isn't still scooping grounders in St. Louis.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Detroit pitchers yesterday achieved the equivalent of every position player getting a hit; every pitcher gave up at least 1 run. <br />But who needs good pitching when your offense can score 6 runs!

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>buttercup

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>How did we neglect to note that the Tigers made it to .500 ???<br /><br />49-49 after Verlander's fine game Sunday.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>"Why do you build me up (build me up) buttercup, baby, just to let me down?"

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>In hindsight I'd rather have Miller, Maybin, and Jurrjens than Cabrera, Willis, and Renteria.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>April 6 2008:<br /><br />Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins are always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...<br /><br />Sticking by my guns- Twins win the AL Central by 2 games over the Pale Hose although lately they haven't been scoring 12 runs a game <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>19-1 Detroit<br /><br /><br />final: 19-4

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>but problem is Dan, that's their first win against the Royals--they're 1-6. They also beat the Twins earlier this year 19-3. Impressive, but they're only 5-10 against Minnesota on the season. Last I looked a few weeks ago, they led the majors in being shut out.<br /><br />They COULD turn it on enough to take the division, only because the Twins are young and the Sox have Ozzie Guillen. Still, they likely are outside looking in, and they've got no shot in the postseason under any circumstances. They'd be better off trading Mags for a pitcher, and dumping Pudge and Sheffield at year end, earlier if they can get a decent return.<br /><br />

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>The 15-24 record against the AL Central is brutal.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Alright!!!!!<br /><br />They've won 2 in a row. If they can tack 2 more wins onto that, they will have reached .500 !!!!!!<br /><br />Then look out central division. No telling what could happen in Septpember.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Greatest Team update...<br /><br /><br />A 6 run 5th inning propels the Tigers past KC, for a 6-3 win. Improving the Tigers' record to 65-69. Still a shot at reaching .500 with a good, no a great September.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>hrbaker</b><p>They're SSSSSSIIIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!! alright! When's the parade?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>This is why we play the games.<br /><br /><br />Steve

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Guess my April 8th pick of the Twins and Sox, not the Tigers and Injuns is holding up <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />It's going to come down to the wire in the AL Central with whomever has the better bullpen (both have been horrible lately) winning it. Still a chance the loser can edge out the Bosox for the wild card and watch the tv executives dive out the window if the Yanks, Red Sox and Mets don;t make the playoffs :-P

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bob, I haven't been on top of it but what was the consensus about the Twins waiting so long to bring Liriano back? From the outside it seemed insane...especially if they lose the division by a game or two.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p>Well , One Of The Greatest Teams has fought it's way to last place in the division .

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>bonderman exited early and Willis was a flop. Carlos Guillen injured and Leyland was so far from managing what was thought to be the best lineup in baseball. The Tiger brass needs to focus on a speedster in LF, sign J.J.Hardy to play ss as my inside source states they are going after him and get the big name pitcher they said that must happen. Other then this.........wasnt I close?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>No.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>Yes <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>As the saying goes, close only counts for horseshoes and grenades. The Tigers are a bomb, which could describe a grenade, so perhaps you were close.<br /><br /><br />Also, if "not possible to be more wrong" = close, then yes, you were close. Better than close.<br /><br />

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>deleted -- double post

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><img src="http://www.deepjiveinterests.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/eating-crow.jpg">

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>thanks the GOOD LORD for hindsight !

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Right you are, Robert, they fought their way to last place.<br /><br /><br />But it wasn't easy. I think they had the second highest on field payroll in the game this year. Players that good at picking agents that good at negotiating salaries... well those players would win at least half of their game, many (I was going to type 'one', when I thought of tape worms) would think.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>one of the "greatest teams ever" managed to finish in last place in the AL central behind the KC ROYALS.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>snawk-he be be be be be be<br />snawk-he be be be be be<br />snawk-he be be be be eb <br /><br />woob boob woob woob woob<br /><br />e be be be be be be be<br /><br />what was your favorite team, uh , the Tacoma Red-Nuts?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>The <i>Unreal</i> DK

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>snawk- e be be be be be<br /><br />wait til 09, Illitch sais he will spend to correct this past year misstakes and I will be back posting. This hardly matches your initial post when the National was around D.MC...wrong tree<br /><br /><br />edited for spelling

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>edited for spelling</i><br /><br />Funniest thing I've read this month.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The season was scheduled to end on Sept 28th.<br /><br />And those glorious Tigers were still at work on the field<br />on Sept 29 !!!!<br /><br />A real die-nasty. <br /><br /><br />So what is the payroll/standing results?? The Yankees had the<br />largest payroll, they're not in the playoffs. The Tigers had<br />the next largest payroll and they're out. Anyone know who was<br />third and fourth? And the payroll ranks for the teams that made the playoffs?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>cant imagine you curling up into a little ball over that one, but you are still probably in your playpen unnatended.<br /><br />edited for I didnt see the wolfie part, is that like RObbie?

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>And with the Tigers' season concluded, I applaud Dan K for being a true fan. He's stayed with his Tigers through all of this 2008 season. No fair weather fan.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>I'll respond as soon as I find my secret decoder ring.<br /><br />In the meantime, here's a gift:<br /><br /><a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/">www.dictionary.com</a>

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>if your day is spent picking apart another man's spelling.<br /><br />go Tigers<br /><br />2009 will be the year

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- does that include me too? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Iam not really sure that in the + 20 yrs I have known you that I could ever figure you out. Mysteriously it is all good.<br /><br />Oh Robbie ,iam not sure if I spelled that big word right ,but if I didnt...I wouldnt of had to look it up.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Couldn't figure me out...that's intriguing. I didn't think I was so complicated.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p><i>cant imagine you curling up into a little ball over that one, but you are still probably in your playpen unnatended.</i><br /><br /><i>edited for I didnt see the wolfie part, is that like RObbie?</i><br /><br /><i>you have male problems wolfie</i> <br /><br />The ability to dissect with a scalpel rather than a chainsaw is a rare gift.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Frank:<br />In reference to your post above, the Mariners were the first team EVER to spend over 100 million in salary, and lose 100 games. Perhaps even more overpaid than the Tigers.... at least a worse "salary to win" ratio. I think Sexson made over 17 million, and check out his stats...<br /><br />Dan:<br />Not to pile on, but I think you meant to tell Robbie "I wouldn't HAVE had to look it up..."

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Rob D.</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />You're welcome to catch a ride with me to the Male Problem Clinic.<br /><br />Rob

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>April 6 2008:<br /><br />Everybody's trendy picks to go to the playoffs and finish 1-2 in the AL Central are the Tigers and Indians. Meanwhile, the young and retooled Twins are always dangerous because they can score 12 runs a game White Sox have been totally overlooked...<br /><br /><br />Nice to be right once in a while <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />C'mon Twins, win today damnit!

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I did see that afterward , but I was done editing for the moment.<br /><br />He got the picture, well sorta.....

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, the Twins lost. Can't help but wonder what would have occurred had they called up Liriano a bit sooner -- he went 10-0 in Triple A, was hitting 97 on the gun -- but was forced to file a grievance to force the Twins' cheap-ass owner to call him up sooner. Oh well, I guess Pohlad saved a few bucks by putting off Liriano's arbitration eligibility. I'm sure it was worth it.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>While all Twins fans are hoping for the best, Liriano's earlier callup would almost certainly made no difference. A few points to ponder.<br /><br />1. Liriano would have made his three years of service had he performed well for the Twins throughout '08. Instead, he showed up late for training camp due to a visa problem relating to a DUI arrest from '06. Having more than a year to figure out and make sure he was in everyone's good legal graces before the '08 season, he mucked up.<br /><br />2. Liriano made the squad out of Spring Training, and again, if he performs consistently, there's no question about his arbitration eligibility. The Twins gave him the ball, and he sucked--- 0-3 with a double digit ERA. They sent him down, where he immediately sucked some more-- 7 earned in 8 1/3 innings over two starts. Once May 24th passed, ie, while he was still awful, there were not enough games remaining in the season for Liriano to reach the three-years service requirement.<br /><br />3. There are some exceptions to the three year requirement, for a select few known as the Super Two players. A decent article on the subject and especially as relates to Liriano is found here: <a href="http://www.twinkietown.com/2008/7/20/575451/greg-genske-wrong-about-ev" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.twinkietown.com/2008/7/20/575451/greg-genske-wrong-about-ev</a><br />Liriano remained inconsistent at Rochester, and the author expalins well what happened:<br /><br />"On June 25, Liriano was coming off four quality starts since his last trainwreck, and he been called up that day, he'd have been a lock for Super Two status. Instead, he stayed in Rochester and produced two of his worst starts of the season on June 25 and 30, allowing 10 ER in 10.1 IP — and most troubling, giving up four home runs in those two games. Had the Twins called up Liriano for his next start on July 5, he still would have had a good chance to reach Super Two status — but what team calls up a pitcher after two straight trainwrecks in the minors? Only a team desperate for starting pitching, which the Twins obviously were not. Liriano bounced back with a solid start on July 5, and another on July 10, but by then it was already too late. Even had the Twins promoted him to start on July 10 — following his one good start after the two trainwrecks — he still would have ended the season with at most 2.125 days of service time, almost certainly under the Super Two threshold."<br /><br />4. It is important to note that this situation hardly screams of injustice to the player. The Twins kept Liriano on the 40 man roster and thereby gave him service eligibility for all of 2007 and a large chunk of 2006 when he was on the DL and unable to lift his arm and pitch for ANYBODY, major or minor league. In other words, Francisco had more time on the DL than on any roster, yet got credit for that entire time while contributing nothing to the team. <br /><br />5. At the time his agent cried foul against the team, the Twins had just gone 21-7 in their last 28 games. Noboby messes with the chemistry of a team playing .750 ball. Given how he had hardly played in two years on the big club and had sucked in the early part of the year, it would almost certainly have created ill will on the team to see Liriano promoted at someone else's expense when "it ain't broken".<br /><br />6. Liriano remains unproven as a full-year starter, and got pounded in two of his last three starts--all in the heat of the September pennant race. While he may or may not be the stopper on this staff, he is not as good as Baker right now, and probably not as good as Slowey either.<br /><br />In sum, Liriano should focus on getting better, more consistent and remaining healthy, not trumpeting that the cheap Twins are out to cheat him. The team has been more than fair with him, and will remain so.<br />

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Instead of picking up 5 of baseball's worst retreads, Livan Hernandez, Craig Monroe, Mike Lamb, Carl Everett and Eddie Guardado, if they had just spent a little of the money they saved on not re-signing Torii Hunter and not keeping Johann Santana and acquired a frigging power hitting 3b or lf, they would have won easily. Punch and judy hitting will just carry you so far. Last in the majors in homerun, they were the modern version of the hitless wonders White Sox of the early 1900's.<br />Gardenhire is also the most overrated manager in baseball. Nice guy, loved by his players but he tries to be a poor man's Tony LaRusso without Tony's brains. Everything is by the book. His record in big games is horrific. <br />A shame, the boys deserved better....

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>they overachieved this year. They are very young and have tremendous upside. They probably have a surplus of starting pitching--Humber came along nicely thank you-- and if Neshek can get healthy, their pen should shore up nicely. If anything, I'd trade Liriano to get a big stick on the left side of the infield. Many still seem enamored of his stuff, and the Twins can afford to move him if teams want to drool all over themselves. I wouldn't give him away because he could change for the better, but right now he remains a 100 pitch guy who usually can't spread those 100 through more than 6 innings. We really don't have much other trade bait except for Nathan (bad idea)or possibly Kubel, so maybe open up the wallet for a free agent 3B or SS such as can be reasonably afforded. Go Twins!!!<br /><br />Edited to add: BTW, it was Adam Everett, not Carl, who they "added" this year. He had a couple shining moments, but Carl would have been better, maybe even Chad Everett. And you're right, while Gardy works magic with the kids year after year, his decision-making on the field is usually unimaginative t othe point where he probably costs them some games. Having watched alot of baseball these past few yers on Direct TV though, I can tell you there are many many managers who are far worse, some scarily so.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, I guess keeping a guy down in the minors who was 10-0 with a 2.67 ERA was better than using a worthless Livan Hernandez, who posted a 4-6 record in 11 starts with an ERA of around 6.50 -- until he was released. Hmmm....somehow I suspect that if Liriano was brought up when he was only 5-0 those extra 5 major league starts instead of using Hernandez might have made a 1 game difference.<br /><br />

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>Todd,<br /> Gotta disagree about trading Liriano. He struck out 188 in 199 innings this year, his first full season after the surgery. He's only 25 and has electric stuff. You just don't trade young pitchers with his upside. They don't come around that often.

OT/....One of baseballs greatest teams?...Detroit Tigers
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Jeff, the Twins missed winning the division by one game, so certainly, one can pick any particular game all season where the starter got torched and argue that Liriano would have been the difference. You might also argue that the team should have benched Liriano for his final start, when a win could have put the Twins in the driver's seat, but where instead he got lit to the tune of 11 hits and 6 earned in 4 1/3 innings pitched to the Royals. <br /><br />Livan Hernandez won 10 games for the team in half a season. He ate innings willingly, even when getting bashed, and was considered a great influence in the clubhouse for the young arms. As for the 4-6 stretch you look back upon, the offense scored two or fewer runs in three of those losses, and, during that part of the calendar, Liriano himself was getting torched twice in Rochester--see above. <br /><br />I already showed the decision-making process the Twins organization used, and Twins fans have no regrets about Liriano was handled. If anything, the team might wish it had called up Denard Span earlier. They wrestled with that issue for some time, as Span was supposed to play for the Olympic team and would have if the Twins could have kept him in Rochester. Span, who very much wanted to play for team USA, kept his mouth shut, played hard, and turned into a dynamic player with a very bright future. He too will be rewarded by the Twins.<br /><br />Ed, don't get me wrong. I certainly would like to keep Liriano. I'm just saying they have little in the way of trade bait, and they badly need pop on the left side. I believe everyone overvalues him now. The K numbers you cite were mostly in the minors, and his walks were up (Twins pitchers don't walk hitters, they were first in MLB by a lot). Frankly, his WHIP was fourth best in the rotation, well behind Baker and Slowey and even trailing Blackburn--all of whom are young and full of potential too. I'll leave it to the organization on this, as their track record in evaluating talent and doing well in trades is well established and envied by many. It's a good problem to have-keep an apparent stud starter or trade him for great value--that's for sure.