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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I have to correct your 2nd sentence here......<br />"If you add up the votes for Taft and TR they outnumber Wilson's however. That kind of party split probably wouldn't<br /> happen in today's world."<br /><br />Woodrow Wilson (Democrat) became President with only 42.5 % of the vote. <br /><br />History was repeated in 1992 when Clinton (Democrat) became President with only 43 % of the vote.<br /><br />Bush had 38 %<br /><br />Perot had 19 %<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I'm starting to get the sense that the answer isn't Admiral Stockdale.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"Obama is mediocre?<br /><br />Is the current editor of the Harvard Law Review mediocre, too?<br /><br />Whatsa matter? Does the idea of some actual intelligence making it to the Oval Office scare you?"<br /><br /><br />This would be funny if it were not so sad. I think most American are afraid of intelligence making it to the oval office. Instead of considering policies and qualifications, they vote for the person that is most like them (i.e. the one they can sit and have a beer with). Smart people are "elitists". It is an idiotic way to choose a president, but it is what we do. That's how we got Dubya. The other major factor is who is better looking. Obama wins this one, but Palin may do wonders. Female sex appeal is an untested wildcard in American politics. Americans want a handsome president, but do they want a hot one?<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Ted Z, <br /><br />Yes, you are correct in that instance. My reference was to the Republican party "splitting" in 1912 however. If everyone had gotten behind TR instead of some supporting Taft, the election might have had different results. Might being the key word, it's not conclusive. Politicians don't seem to like to have their relationships with corporate interests severed for some reason.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Admiral Stockdale...man I forgot about that guy, though it's a pretty easy thing to do. <br /><br />Jim B.,<br /><br />I think it has to do more with how the "elitist" delivers his/her message, not all "smart people" are smart quite frankly. I think most Americans would prefer an intelligent POTUS for sure, but they don't want to be talked down to...if you know what I mean.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>My understanding of the 1912 electtion is that there was a huge rift between Teddy Roosevelt and Taft (R)....that Teddy<br /> decided to run against Taft. Therefore, throwing the election to Wilson, who won by only 42.5% (the lowest margin ever).<br /><br />In 1992, this scenario was repeated by Perot's dislike for George Bush (Sr.), which then threw the election to Clinton.<br /><br />Political analysts have determined that 2/3rds of the 19% that voted for Perot, would have voted for Bush. Therefore, Bush<br />would have beat Clinton in a very close race....51% to 49%<br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>PERHAPS....an informed, and more intelligent American electorate recalls that our so-called "more intelligent" 20th Century Presidents<br /> have been LOUSY leaders, for example........<br /><br /><br />Woodrow Wilson.....Princeton, U. of Virginia Law School, doctorate at Johns Hopkins University<br /><br /><br />Herbert Hoover......Stanford University graduate with a Mining Engineer degree<br /> <br /><br />Jimmy Carter.........attended several Colleges, graduated from the US Naval Academy (studied nuclear physics)<br /><br /><br /><br />WHEREAS....history has shown that the so-called "less intelligent" Presidents have been GREAT leaders, for example........<br /><br /><br />Teddy Roosevelt....Harvard, Columbia Law School (drop out).....one less lawyer for President <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Harry Truman........only a High School education<br /><br /><br />Ronald Reagan.......graduated Eureka College<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>what does "would have" mean? if someone was going to vote for someone wouldn't they have voted for them? just because a third option exists doesn't mean you have to vote for them. so to say if someone voted for perot they "would have voted for bush" doesn't make any sense. they could have just voted for bush in the first place. it's just as easy to assume they wouldn't have voted at all.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Truman went to law school for a couple of years but did not graduate.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I want a president with brains...not some guy I'd like to have a beer with. Same goes for my doctor, my accountant, my financial adviser....et cetera. Who wants a president that they can "relate" to? Especially after 7 1/2 years of Dubya.<br /><br />What cynical times we live in.

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>i agree. i can relate to someone who gets excited over a pristine matty but i don't necessarily want them as my president.

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>For the first time in 14 I just had a flashback of the Saturday Night live skit with Dana Carvey playing Ross Perot and Phil Hartman playing Admiral Stockdale. I need to find that thing on youtube. Priceless!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Rhys- remember Perot asks Stockdale to get out of the car, and when he does Perot drives away. Then Stockdale runs at full speed and catches up to the car. Hartman got his loopy character down perfectly.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>That's always the first thing I think about when Ross Perot and Adm. Stockdale are mentioned, but you won't find SNL clips on youtube Rhys. For some reason (probably a perceived loss of dvd sales) SNL doesn't want anyone to see their old skits.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Paul,<br />You are right. The way they deliver their message is critical. Clinton was extremely smart, but he was able to communicate with everyday folks.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I usually try to stay out of this type of conversation.<br /><br />But David:<br />"Of course, it's totally irrelevant what either Obama's or Palin's "spiritual advisor" believes."<br /><br />I am trying to understand how Reverend Wright is not relevant if he was part of Obama's campaign.<br />My thought is that the people who are/were part of a candidate's campaign are kind of relevant.<br /><br /><br />Sure if he was just a spiritual advisor - it might not matter so much - but a member of the campaign?<br /><br /><br /><br />I can even get past all of the comments made by Wright.<br /><br />What is very difficult to get past is.... when it all hit the fan.....<br />Obama's was asked if he knew that Wright made the comment of "God Damn America" being a better phrase than "God Bless America"<br />Obama said he didn't know that Wright made those comments, he wasn't at Church when the statements were made.<br /><br />In 20 years of knowing him... does anyone believe that Obama never heard Wright make statements like this?<br /><br />cmon!<br /><br />edit: grammar<br />edit: last sentence to 'cmon!' in order for a kinder reply.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I wouldn't call Admiral Stockdale "loopy". He was badly miscast and clearly uncomfortable as a VP candidate but otherwise he conducted himself w/honor and dignity his entire life. If he was, in fact, loopy, perhaps it was from beating his face against walls and lacerating his own skull so that his North Vietnamese captors could not use him in propaganda films. When he was released after seven years he was in even worse physical condition than john McCain and was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.<br /><br />Barry, I know you didn't mean anything disrespectful by your comment, I just think it's a shame that Stockdale is chiefly remembered for that brief period of his life.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Wright was not part of the Obama campaign.<br /><br />"IMO - Obama is either full of cr@p or he thinks we are all morons, or both"<br /><br />Why don't you compare that little lie with some of McCain's statements?<br /><br />How about him saying that "Palin is the best choice of running mate in American history."<br /><br />Or that he's an agent for change. (Although he will change anything he's previously said or supported in order to garner the support of the Republican faithful.)<br /><br />Now, who's <i>really</i> treating us like morons.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Joe, have you noticed who The Maverick (TM) has surrounded his campaign staff with? They're all lobbyists...McCain has even named a lobbyist to run his transition team in the unfortunate event that he is elected president. One of McCain's chief campaign strategists is Tucker Eskew, the man behind the push polling in South Carolina in 2000 in which they called people to ask them if they would still vote for McCain if they discovered he had an illegitimate black baby. <br /><br />If McCain/Palin are elected I sincerely hope McCain's health sustains him for 4 possibly 8 years and that he will dump the Rovian trash he's decided to surround himself with in order to get elected.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Wright was a member of Obama's African American Religious Leadership Committee and as such was part of the Obama campaign.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>And just what role did that committee play in the campaign?<br /><br />(And I haven't heard you comment on any of McCain's absurd statements.)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Howard- no, I meant no disrespect at all. He seemed like a decent soul who just wasn't up to the task. But Hartman played him loopy, for whatever reason. As Dan B. said, often an SNL skit is the first thing you remember when some topics are brought up.<br /><br />How can anyone not chuckle about synchronized swimming after the hilarious sketch Martin Short and Harry Shearer did.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Joe, The One would never lie. If he said he never heard or knew about Wright making those statements, I believe him. After all, he is The One. So what if he disinvited Wright from the ceremony announcing The One's candidacy for president because, as he told Wright, "Your sermons can get a little rough"? That doesn't suggest that The One knew about the particulars of any of said "rough" sermons. Regardless, when the rise of the oceans begin to slow and our planet begins to heal you won't give a damn about the fact that maybe The One told a fib. <br /><br />Sorry, David, I can't help but tease you a bit. In all seriousness, however, a new Rassmussen poll shows that of independent voters not affiliated with either party, 71% believe McCain is ready to be president while just 35% believe the same for The One. That suggests that it is not just beer-swilling idiots from red states that are not persuaded by lofty oratory read off a teleprompter in front of faux Greek temples.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>David....<br /><br />"Why don't you compare that little lie with some of McCain's statements?"<br /><br /><br />With your response I am left wondering....<br /> are you conceding that Obama is full of cr@p and/or thinks we are morons?<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- that's exactly my point, that despite the fact that Obama is intelligent and has good ideas he's not capturing the public's imagination. I think he may lose and then... gasp...four more years.

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Posted By: <b>S Gross</b><p>Where's Gus Hall when you need him ??? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ????<br /><br />I won't even try to get into this "discussion," but write down these numbers:<br /><br />McCain -- 53<br />Obama -- 44<br />Barr -- 3<br /><br />(Barr's 3% is just wishfull thinking on my part, if you want, give'um to whoever)

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jeff, how many times are you going to mention the background from the Denver convention? As if that's the most important thing in this race....that's right McCain has no issues to run on so it's attack, attack, attack on the stupidest, most mundane things. American's (for the most part) aren't stupid...we know who's been running this country for the last 7 1/2 years and now they want a mulligan. Way to take ownership at the GOP convention...no mention of Bush/Cheney...Hell you couldn't even find the word "Republican" anywhere inside or outside of the building.<br /><br />That Rasmussen poll doesn't say who voters are going to vote for does it? Did they poll people who only have cell phones?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, the comment about the background is just one thing; the fact is there are many, many things that trouble the typical voter about Obama. Had Obama selected Hilary as his running mate, do you even think the Dems would be in the position they are in right now? Course not. As for attack ads, Obama's campaign runs them all the time so it's hardly a Republican thing (even if they did invent it). As for the polls, they are sliding all in McCain's favor right now. Apparently Obama is only 5 points up in NY now, which is incredible.<br /><br />Keep in mind as I said above I'm a lifelong Dem who has never voted Republican in any election in my life -- until now. I liked Obama a lot at the beginning because I believed he really might be the type of politician to change Washington for the better. But then the lies about Reverend Wright started me thinking...and the more I looked at him the more I believed he was just a slick marketing plan.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Martin</b><p>I speak in tongues.<br /><br />I try to get people fired that I personally dislike.<br /><br />I believe the Iraq war is a mission sent from God.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>According to McCain, you're the "best choice of running mate in American history."

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The Reverend Wright incident was definitely a gaffe, but I don't think the whole election will be based on one's feelings about it. Obama came out of it looking bad, how about we give him one strike and move on to more important things.

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>A rock star, a beauty queen and two partisan hacks. But I am a cynic by nature. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, it wasn't a gaffe, it was a lie. And honesty is an important character trait in a presidential nominee. And that one lie exposed Obama to some large extent; he was on such a high pedestal compared to McCain that a similar lie from McCain would have had much less of an effect on voters. <br /><br />The fact is the election will not be decided on the Net 54 boards no matter how angry people get. I think that the process is a very subtle one in which momentum plays a major factor. If Obama does not figure out how to reverse the momentum soon he will surely lose the election. I remember saying in August that I believed the one thing Obama could do to reverse the subtle slide he was going through then (this was pre-Palin) was to pick Hilary for VP. However, either because Bill was just too much to bear for him (I can't blame Obama for that) or just plain arrogance, he chose Biden instead. That was a mistake regardless of Biden's abilities. Unfortunately, in today's day and age 'ability' and 'competence' take a back seat to appearance and perception in the minds of American voters.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So Bush and Cheney never lied?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Of course they did. Where did I say that they did not? Difference is, they got caught after being elected.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Touche.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>So Jeff, you think McCain/Palin are the people who are really going to clean up Washington? So what do you think of McCain surrounding himself with lobbyists and the fact that Palin was not really against Pork barrel spending when it came to her state?<br /><br />Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on Pastor Hagee and his association with John McCain. I sure am glad I'm not responsible for everything my pastor says.<br /><br />The sad thing is here I know you're smarter than the average bear which leads me to believe you're being intellectually dishonest, for a "lifelong Democrat" to be voting for the first time in his life for a Republican after 8 years of perhaps the most dishonest administration in the history of the United States.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Martin</b><p>"When only 1/3rd of the population supported George Washington."<br /><br /> Todays politicians have no interest in what the framers intended or what America should represent. If brought forward to 2008, Washington and Jefferson would purge Congress and the House and would be very ashamed of what our government has become.<br /> You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen and potential terrorist these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. <br /> The democracy handed to us by the founding fathers and outlined in the Bill of Rights, Constitution and Declaration of Independence have been traded for the velvet glove and iron fist of the modern American megastate.<br /> The people are trading in America for "Amerika" and don't even realize it. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>rev. wright was not part of obama's campaign. if anyone is going to pretend that wright speaks for obama or that a sermon given before obama was even running for president somehow speaks for obama and his principles they are trying desperately hard to find fault in someone totally separated from any of those statements. to try to portray wright as obama is a right wing blow-hard talking point and makes absolutely no sense.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>"The sad thing is here I know you're smarter than the average bear which leads me to believe you're being intellectually dishonest, for a "lifelong Democrat" to be voting for the first time in his life for a Republican after 8 years of perhaps the most dishonest administration in the history of the United States...<br /><br />is unimaginable!!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, the issue of 'cleaning up Washington' is not the only issue that matters to me. Sad to say, in today's day and age we actually have bigger problems we're facing. I know that of McCain and Obama only one of them has shown major bipartisan tendencies -- and it is obviously not Obama. That is important to me to some degree as is national defense which is paramount. <br /><br />Also, really, one can be intellectually honest and still vote for McCain. Truly. To suggest otherwise...is kind of arrogant, no?

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>"And just what role did that committee play in the campaign?"<br /><br />"And I haven't heard a comment on any of McCain's absurd statements"<br /><br />I guess these questions are directed at me, David.<br /><br />Religious leaders are usually gifted speakers with large audiences. The role of this committee was and is to speak to as many people as possible with the hope of securing as many votes as possible for Obama. <br /><br />Why would I have made any comments on absurd statements made by McCain? My comment on Wright was made only to correct your comment that he was not part of the campaign. I checked the thread anyway and the only McCain quote that could fit the "absurd" bill was one you posted about Palin being the greatest VP choice ever. This may be absurd but it's harmless. It is the kind of thing that politicians say about their friends and running mates. On the other hand, if he meant that she's the candidate that has most helped a presidential candidate in the polls then she may well be the best choice ever.<br /><br />Howard

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Dan<br />"Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on Pastor Hagee and his association with John McCain. I sure am glad I'm not responsible for everything my pastor says."<br /><br /><br />Was / Is Pastor Hagee a chosen member of of McCain's campaign?<br /><br />If not... you are confusing the issue (or denying the issue, one or the other).<br /><br />I do not care about any of Obama's friends / pastors / relatives / etc....<br />only the ones Obama chooses to be part of his campaign.<br />That choice is basically a reflection on Obama's judgment.<br />And when the crap hit the fan....<br />That was a chance for Obama to show his integrity and show his ability to handle an adverse situation.<br />He failed miserably on all accounts.<br /><br /><br />Why did he lie about it when asked?<br />simple to me... he was afraid of the next question<br />"If you knew the God Damn America (and other) comments Wright was making - why would you choose him to be part of your campaign."<br /><br />Apparently Obama did not want that question.<br />So he went we the golly, gosh, gee, really he said that?- defense.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Well you sure made it sound like the Reverend Wright and Denver backdrop were your major issues with Obama, but I will note that Obama's plan for the war in Iraq was endorsed by the Iraqi's (no sense in staying if we're going against the will of the people...you know that's the problem with Democracies! Heh!) and sure enough even Dubya came around to it after that. Also that war in Afghanistan...remember that one? Yeah Obama's plan also was endorsed by McCain who realized he had to come around to it.<br /><br />So you go ahead and vote for the guy who thought Iran was in cahoots with Al Qaeda and thought that the Sunni Awakening was a result of the Surge...I'll vote for the guy who doesn't stand for the Bush status quo.<br /><br />And that will be my last post in this thread...I've been discussing politics on the internet for over 12 years now and I've only changed one mind. That's not a big enough payoff to continue to waste this much time.<br /><br />I'm going to edit this one just so I can give Joe a satisfactory answer. Hagee endorsed McCain and McCain accepted it...Hagee was found to have made racist, anti-Semitic remarks and McCain did not disavow Hagee's endorsement until he was pressured to do so...as far as Rev Wright's comments about damning America well in certain instances it's called for. America isn't always a shining beacon of light (Torture, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo) and I'm sure a black man of Wright's age clearly remembers the world before the Civil Rights acts of 1964. You really want to talk about un-American activities we can start with Sarah Palin's husband who was (is?) a member of a secessionist group. Doesn't get more un-American than that. Could you even imagine the sh*tstorm in this country if Obama's wife belonged to a group that wanted to secede from the union?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"rev. wright was not part of obama's campaign. "<br /><br />ali -<br />he most certainly was.<br /><br />unless of course we want to revise history.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Dan:<br />"And that will be my last post in this thread...I've been discussing politics on the internet for over 12 years now and I've only changed one mind. That's not a big enough payoff to continue to waste this much time."<br /><br />that was great and true. This is my last post as well.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, Dan, good point. I doubt you'll change my mind. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>i'm curious about your feelings on obama, jeff. you say that national security is paramount in your decision on who you are going to vote for. why do you think mccain is the better choice?

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Like I said, barry, I know you weren't being disrespectful. I remeber laughing at that Stockdale bit myself. Phil Hartman is my all time favorite SNLer.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>To me the question is whether or not McCain is the same man he was back in '00 or if he has officially moved to the mainstream fiscally irresponsible Republican party. Right now he isn't offering much except a nice ability to pickup hot younger women.<br /><br />I've decided that I'm going to win either way this election. If Obama can pull the shocker, the Republicans will hopefully regroup and go back being fiscally conservative and rid themselves of the corruption that has seeped into their party.<br /><br />If McCain wins I won't have to watch the far left rejoice.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I feel that in the end I will vote for the person I want leading me (the country) as President. I think both candidates are very good. So, who would I prefer leading me? McCain or Obama? For me it's McCain....he is an American hero and has more integrity than anyone I know of. He is the real deal. It doesn't hurt that his blood line includes a father and grandfather that were both 4 star generals. As I say...I like them both but to lead me and the US...McCain....

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Posted By: <b>ali_lapoint</b><p>how much integrity does a guy who actually was a POW have when he turns around and votes against the CIA Torture Ban? not to mention his involvement in the keating 5 scandal which left approx. 21,000 elderly people pennyless.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>How much integrity does someone have by staying anonymous on the board? I know your name and if you continue in these types of threads I will put your name (FW) on every one of your posts.....I don't understand the anonymity thing.....Last time you said I used the rules selectively then when I asked you to show proof you clammed up...not anymore....You either put your name out here and debate or you need to stay in factual card threads. Email me if you don't understand......thanks

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ali...you're right -- he has no integrity at all. Not a shred. Not even when he was getting tortured in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years and refused to go home early in favor of other men. Oh, by the way, was Obama snorting coke and smoking pot in high school around that time?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When McCain was in Viet Nam Obama was about four years old...and I think your last comment was over-the-top cynical. Is it possible to smoke pot as a teenager and lead the country as an adult?

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Leon, <br /><br />Last night, I told Jeff L. who I thought ali was. Guess I was correct. <br /><br />Did he ever make good on that deal where the card wasn't delivered? If not, he shouldn't be on the board anyway.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Actually, Obama was 12 when McCain was released. So he was in Junior High School, sorry for the error.<br /><br />I don't know, Barry; actually, recreational drug use means little to me in our leaders. But my response was to Ali's claim that McCain has "no integrity" -- which, when you consider, is just a laughable thing to say about the guy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I only found out a day or two ago......I don't know the story you are speaking of.....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, is that true? It is the same guy?

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>I don't know who wins this election, but I feel it is a one term, sacrificial lamb type Presidency anyway. The 2012 election should be interesting.<br /><br />Who will be our modern day Teddy Roosevelt? Is there anyone out there? I have my thoughts...but I don't want to "betray" him just yet.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Paul, that may very well be true. If McCain wins...is it Hilary v. Palin in 2012? Can you imagine?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>McCain does have integrity, and he is a war hero, but there's a bigger issue.<br /><br />I don't think the Republicans should be rewarded by getting four more years in the White House after what we've been through in the last eight. It will take a long time to fix this country, and it's time for someone else to take a shot at it. I have a problem rewarding incompetence.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>No way Jeff, I don't even want to think about that one. I can't believe I'm saying this, but looking back on the whole process I think Hill(despite all her faults) is probably the best person for this job. Ok, somebody shoot me now. <br /><br />You mean ali is not really ali? Do tell.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, McCain after disposing of Romney was hated by the "true conservatives" in the Republican party. They viewed him as too liberal, too bipartisan, etc. He's hardly a Bush-type Republican. He's actually sponsored more legislation with Democrats than he has with Republicans over the years.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>attribute WAY too much--both positively AND negatively--to the presidency..........it's the lackies and tagger-oners that unfortunately influence WAY too much of our country's direction. <br /><br />And someone's point earlier that McCain picks out the hotties.....I mean.....that's gotta count for something--right?<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Tom, true, true. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Did Palin come in first place on the new reality show "America's Hottest V.P.'s?"

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>this will be my only post in this thread, as politics, like religion, is pointless to argue and almost certainly bound to lead to at least some bad will in the end. Still, since off-topic threads seem to be the theme of the week, I'll pony up mine.<br /><br />McCain integrity. Well, we know a little bit about the senator here in AZ, and his dalliances over the years. And yes, what about the Keating Five. Particularly distasteful down here, as 'ol Charlie and many of the disgraced were prominent Arizonans. John was right there in the mix, and was lucky to duck most of the charges. And then there's his first wife, who he divorced upon his return from Nam. By most (maybe all) accounts, she waited patiently and devotedly for his return, and was dumped by him after she had become disfigured and largely immobilized following a traffic accident, no longer retaining her beauty contest winning looks and youth. Of course, integrity also means you put your country second so long as it means you can become electable--nominate a pretty face who has ZERO experience and likely just as little ability at the helm of anything complex (5 colleges in 6 years, what stick-to-it-ness she showed). So yeah, we down here really view his character as unassailable--right.<br /><br />The Republican party remains a one-trick pony--fear. You must vote for us because these are troubled times, and we need a leader. Never mind that we will be $600 BILLION dollars into Iraq by election time--a place we never should have gone and, stay with McCain on this, we must remain. Hmm, think that might have something to do with the economy, or maybe the 90% plus other things you sided with Dubya on these past 8 years? Nope, blow the trumpets, if you give a damn about this country you must elect the red white and blue saint who will keep the mongrels at bay--lest we all be reading a Koran in 2-3 years. The sky is falling, Akmed is at our door, and if you don't vote for a real patriot you can kiss your children's future goodbye.<br /><br />Now what about economic and social issues Senator Mccain? What do you offer that is different than your predecessor? Answer: "Did you not hear what I said about Iraq? Do you want that we should all be prisoners of war? Do you not want me to save you? Do you like my new girlfriend, er, running mate? Ain't she cute?<br /><br />So if you're looking for substance from the GOP, you'd better have really sharp eyes, 'cause it's gonna be damn hard to see.<br /><br />EDITED to remove one remark out of friendship.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yawn. Politics of fear. I guess that big hole in the ground a few miles from my apartment where 3000 Americans died was just a figment of my imagination. No reason to be scared about that. No experience in the VP? Too pretty? Snarky. Nah, she's just a governor. Too bad she's not a junior senator who spent a whole 100 days in the Senate before running for his next office. Now that's the kind of experience I want.

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Posted By: <b>Scott T</b><p>Disclosure: I am a fiscal conservative/social libertarian and fall into the “strict constructionist” category concerning the Constitution.<br /><br />A point to consider...<br /><br />Had Hillary Clinton chosen Illinois (a state where she actually had some ties) as her “new” state from which to lunch her Senate bid, Barack No Middle Name Obama would still be a “community organizer”, whatever that is.<br /><br />I hope that sometime in my lifetime, I can vote “for” President and not merely “against”. (For the record, I liked Fred Thompson in the primary.)<br /><br><br>Scott <br />

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> The question today seems to be will Americans vote for The Great(er) Depression or the black guy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, that's the liberal question, of course; it would seem many lefties can't imagine anyone not voting for Obama but for the color of his skin. I consider such a belief to simply being stage 2 of dealing with loss: anger.

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> Jeff, if Hoover looses, don't be sad; you'll always have the Klan.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Jeff, <br /><br />For a life long Dem you sure have come around nicely.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, smart conclusion: if I vote for Obama I'm brilliant; if I don't, I'm a racist. And you wonder why Obama's chances are slipping away by the minute..with more and more people every day thinking that he and his party are arrogant. Look at the bright side: you know he's getting another book deal after the election.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>I think Obama is a bright person. Unfortunately he and I have different views of what the goverments role should be.<br /><br />In the Bill O'Rielly interview his statements about income redistribution bothered me.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>BIll O'Reilly is a horse's patootie. I have never seen such a self serving interview in my life.

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> <br /><br />Jeff, your invective gives you away as a racist: Obama is arrogant, another variation on the black-guy-doesn't-know-his-place Jim Crow jive. Another variation we've seen is he's the One, a celebrity, uppity, the waves will part. How dare he! Shame on your greedy old party.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, you're hilarious, seriously. "Arrogant" is now a racist codeword! I suppose "McCain" is one as well!!! Believe it or not, many Hilary supporters have claimed Obama is arrogant -- I guess they're racist bastards too.<br /><br />And when did liberals get so damn angry and hateful? What about peace, love and understanding?

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> Sarah Palin is the first candiate on both Republican & Democrat tickets, for either President or VP, since Theodore Roosevelt - who knows how to field dress a moose.<br /><br />I found that one funny.<br /><br />Didn't read the whole thread so not sure if this was already posted

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>"And when did liberals get so damn angry and hateful? What about peace, love and understanding?"<br /><br />Great question!<br /><br />I'm not a defender of Bill O'Rielly but his interview was fair. I know at times he cut Obama of or talked over him, but he was only given 30 minutes to interview him and tried to extract as many real answers from him as he could.<br />