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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Mike, the bigger question is this: when the FBI was at the PSA booth yesterday, did anyone see a hair on Joe Orlando's head out of place?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I agree Jeff. I'm sure Doug is a bit nervous. I feel kind of bad about that. I don't know him from Adam, but I suspect he's a good guy that pushed the limits a bit. <br /><br />I interpreted the 'fixing corners' as the laying down corners practice that has been the subject of debate here several times, with many board members saying they don't see anything wrong with laying down a corner that is stuck up a little bit. If what that means is a corner rebuild or something like that, then obviously it is considered unethical.<br /><br />As to removing creases, that had some debate here with most people saying it shouldn't happen and it seemed like that one was the one that got Mastro to rethink what it was doing - not because they considered it wrong but because they saw that the hobby and customer base disapproved of the practice. That's just my recollection of the course of events, threads and posts, but it could be wrong. Hell, I can hardly remember what I had for breakfast!<br /><br />I just thought it was notable that the first list of 'card doctor' practices read very closely to the list of things that were discussed here at length, particularly as related to Mastro, came down on the side of a majority here disapproving (but far from unanimously), and Mastro changed policy. <br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>How does O'Keefe know that the former Mastro employee was a card doctor? And how do we know the conversations with PSA were even related to card doctoring? Were they questioning actual graders (who would be knowledgeable of such things) or were they just questioning reps? <br /><br />They may have just been asking PSA about the submission process (how submitters's identities are concealed and that sort of thing). If the FBI were interested in doctored cards that end up in holders, I would expect them to question all the grading companies. You would also think that they would be shutting down the Gem Elite/Pro's of the world pretty soon if that were their interest, as it would be very easy to prove with those companies.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Chris, you're probably right. The FBI agents and postal inspectors were probably jus asking about the post-50s special that PSA was advertising. I've heard that the FBI agent in charge of the investigation found a huge box of 70s Topps cards in his grandfather's attic and was hoping to get a good deal on slabbing.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>If you disclose what you did to a card or work or art, you have no legal issue. If you don't disclose alterations you performed, and the alteration and non-disclosure was done to raise value, you could get into legal trouble. It's perfectly legal to cut off the edges, bleach and rebuild the corners of all your baseball cards and Monet paintings. But you are required to disclose what you did to the cards and paintings when you sell.<br /><br />People like to philosophize about the relative harm and ethics of spooning and wrinkle pressing and the like, but fraud really is a financial law and possibly fraudulent situations are substantially judged by the financial impact. Say blatant alteration and lack of disclosure was done to falsely raise the sell value by $10,000. What may most matter to a prosecutor and judge is the $10,000, not the kind of alteration performed. If wrinkle pressing to super high PSA grade and autograph forgery on a baseball result in the same $10,000 loss to a citizen, don't be surprised if a judge considers them equivalent crimes. The financial impact of the alteration and non disclosure may be far more important to the judge than the kind, style or technique of alteration used to reach the financial impact.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>A significant aspect of this is the timing.<br /><br />The FBI and USPS officers could have made their inquiries anytime. It seems likely they chose to do it during the National. There are many reasons why they might have done that. <br /><br />So it isn't just what they did, but when they did it. And WHY they did it when they did.

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Posted By: <b>Chris</b><p>I doubt the FBI would have much interest in submitting cards, but they could have a lot of interest in whether PSA's graders know whose cards they're evaluating if they've heard allegations of favoritism for Mastro or large submitters. <br /><br />I thought I spelled that out enough the first time.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Maybe the agents were inquiring whether they could get a greater discount on a collector's club membership.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wow.<br /><br />On vaca and just gave it a quick read but this is great news. Any high level investigation of fraud can only be good.<br /><br />Do not agree that the hobby is about the people you meet--to me its all about the cards and anything that can stop the bad guys from altering the cards is a great thing.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>should be the qualifier on the labels of your cards Jim!<br />The "people".....matter! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, do you really get no satisfaction out of meeting and conversing with people who share this very esoteric interest/obsession of ours? I mean, yeah, the cards are great, but some people I've met just from this board I consider close friends. Doesn't that have any value to you?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Jim, you met me...wasn't that a life altering event?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Willie Sutton allegedly (it is actually a misquote) as to why he robbed banks "because that's where the money is." They went to the National because it gave the US Marshall a chance to serve all the subpoenas in one place; that's where the targets were located. <br /><br />As far as testimony goes, I don't think they'll get much beyond invocation of the 5th Amendment privilege...but Brother Lichtman is the expert in this area of the law so whatever he says about this issue is fine by me. <br /><br />BTW, I heard that a dealer actually did get arrested and taken off the floor by the Feds, but it was unrelated to the FBI's investigation. Anyone know what that was about?<br /><br />Seems our next poll will be "which hobby luminary will be someone's prison wife this time next year?"<br /><br />Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>There are other ways to make a case other than the admissions of the principals.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>"Do not agree that the hobby is about the people you meet--to me its all about the cards and anything that can stop the bad guys from altering the cards is a great thing."<br /><br />I'd feel that way too if I were you Jim.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Adam, no targets could have received subpoenas for their testimony -- because then they could simply assert the 5th, get immunity, and have their sins washed away. My guess is that any target that received a subpoena was for documents only. Anyone who received a subpoena for their testimony is probably just a witness for the Grand Jury.<br /><br />And, of course, you're right: the reason why the subpoenas were served at the National is because the FBI/Postal Inspector was basically shooting fish in a barrel by having everyone under one roof.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>This should be an interesting exercise for the feds. <br /><br />Lets list the HOF of possible impropriety:<br /><br />CARDS - The T206 "Gretzky" PSA8 Wagner<br /><br />GAME USED - The bat "possibly" (use the term loosely) used in Joe D's 56 game hit streak <br /><br />Can anyone add more?

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>The Harris Collection (possibly maybe).

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff, Barry<br /><br />You guys are good guys but if I did not collect or sold my collection its not that I would be involvedv in net 54 or see you guys. <br /><br />to me--its the cards that matter--but if others feel differently and collect for the friendships that is fine too.

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>What I heard was that the person who was taken out in cuffs, went into a back room, stole a bunch of merchandise and THEN tried to sell the stolen stuff on the show floor in plain sight of the people who knew what had been taken. As a local radio personality here in Dallas does on his morning program, they walk amongst us.<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich

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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>It will take me a day to digest all of what I have read. I can only tell you this is just the tip of the Iceburg.

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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>Iceberg, didnt know you spelled like Goldberg.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"But this ship can't sink!"<br /><br />"She is made of iron, sir. I assure you she can, and she will."

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>I'll trade you one friend for a 52 Topps psa 8 of Minnie Minoso<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://1952toppsbaseballcards.com/1952Topps%2520Baseball%2520Cards,%2520Page%252033. htm#1952%20TOPPS%20#195" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://1952toppsbaseballcards.com/1952Topps%2520Baseball%2520Cards,%2520Page%252033. htm#1952%20TOPPS%20#195</a><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>One of the reasons, I suspect, that the Feds are targeting Mastro in particular, is that the Feds ALWAYS try to go after the big fish. <br /><br />Another reason, and this speaks to the "card doctoring" aspect of this probe, is that one of the higher-ups on the Mastro masthead is one of the pioneers of selling altered cards. I don't think he did the actual doctoring himself, but he would set up at shows (I recall the PA-Fort Washington shows) and sell CLEARLY MARKED "restored cards". WHERE ARE ALL THESE CARDS TODAY and WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CONCEPT OF SELLING RESTORED CARDS??

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Posted By: <b>Pat Nester</b><p>Bruce,<br />Add one more copy to your list. I have seen an example in a collection here in Chicago from a sheet music collector I know.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"Do not agree that the hobby is about the people you meet--to me its all about the cards..."<br /><br />But who would you tell of your 25,000 slabs? Can you imagine collecting with no one to feel superior to?<br /><br />What good is a collector's Hall of Fame without the hoi polloi?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Boy, David, you don't see the term "hoi polloi" in a sentence very often these days. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>"hoi polloi" comes in second to "jazz hands" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jodi Birkholm</b><p>Glad somebody got a kick out of the "jazz hands"! It makes me want to do a search to see what the heck I was writing about that demanded the use of such a non-hobby-related term! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I almost forgot about the Harris collection. What an absolute crock of crap that was. The definition of "subjective" takes an entirely different twist when you consider the grading of that set of cards. I suppose when you look at this industry/hobby there could be some oversight to protect the consumers but like that saying goes about a fool and his money.....

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>David- "hoi polloi," I love it! I haven't heard that expression in a long, long time <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />I agree though, if there were no hobby, i.e. no collectors who were involved in the pursuit of cards and sharing of opinions and facts about the cards with each other, publishing books and pamphlets about the cards, and getting together to drink a beer and see what each other had, no one would give a (Joe) Tinker's dam that you had 25000 pieces of plastic with baseball cards in them. It would be like someone who had a room in his basement with 25000 toothpicks. Who cares? People would think you were OC for having them.

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Posted By: <b>Scott B.</b><p><br />Now make me wonder the $1.3M "proxy bid" on that jumbo Wagner was really a "proxy bid" or just a hidden reserve.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Fred, are you suggesting there were no "jumbo" T206s in the Harris Collection? How about mini-T206s?<br /><br />The more surprising question is how did a Jumbo Wagner get past Bill Mastro? Can you imagine how frustrated he must have been when he saw that card? Five minutes with him and that card would have been a 9.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I was at the live auction and I can assure you that the bidders bidding on the Wagner were real.....it went back and forth after it hit 1m with 2 bidders.....On other lots there were book bids (most likely phoned in) but this lot didn't have any of those once it got going.....<br /><br />I am saddened a bit to hear that friends and colleagues of mine are being investigated as I would be for any friend. I stand by the comments I made to O'keefe and hope the investigation will vindicate Mastro....<br /><br />Also, I specifically asked O'keefe to be careful to not take my comments out of context and I don't believe he did. He stated exactly what I said. With that being said what he did not state were my comments about the book "The Card"......That was why I made the comment about putting the hobby in a good light, after exposing improprieties. I am NOT saying we always have to make everything sound hunky dory when it isn't. However, I do believe there is more good than bad about the hobby but if all we hear is the bad then it doesn't make it out to be that way. I have no issue whatsover with investigations as I think the are GOOD for the hobby in the long run. It will make folks have more confidence to jump in and collect. I know Scott and I are a wide open book when it comes to the hobby....and that is the way it should be. thanks and best regards

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>"The more surprising question is how did a Jumbo Wagner get past Bill Mastro? Can you imagine how frustrated he must have been when he saw that card? Five minutes with him and that card would have been a 9."<br /><br />LMAO...Jeff I think you'll be paying more than $75 next year for the catalog, perhaps after the legal fees Mastro will be charging us a dollar a click on the website.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Damn Leon you were at 1m on the Wagner...strong!

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Jeff and John, both recent posts are great. It's always good to chukle a little while reading through the threads.

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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>οἱ πολλοί<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Brian, I hope your post, interpreted, states that you're sending a Cobb Rose Postcard my way.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>There is nothing wrong with reporting the news. But the best way to present it is by giving a more balanced story. Say all you want about the fraud in the hobby; I for one have long recognized how fraudulently business has been conducted in the sports memorabilia field. It's an unregulated industry that has attracted numerous fringe dealers who find it easy to make a quick buck.<br />================================================= ============================<br /><br />Well, they did apparently try to contact Mastro with no response.<br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Bill,<br /><br />Change your underwear, drink beer and don't drive after you've had too much...

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Posted By: <b>Rexicle</b><p>john. Your perspective and grand applause for mastro's top officials seems skewed, almost romantic. From your most unbiased view (however difficult it may be for you to achieve such a terribly objective perspective), what are your thoughts on the feds, this time, seeking an indictment?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>But Leon stated that he wasn't aware of anything going on in the hobby, can someone please provide him the link to the recent Nodgrass episode? Oh, here it is - <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1209785082/A+Collector%2C+Mastro%2C+PSA+%26amp%3B+Our+Beloved +Hobby" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1209785082/A+Collector%2C+Mastro%2C+PSA+%26amp%3B+Our+Beloved +Hobby</a><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy</b><p>I the IRS will be making some changes, and paypal and eBay will be involved<br /><br />take a look at this article<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/high-volume-sellers-irs-is-interested.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/latest/high-volume-sellers-irs-is-interested.html</a><br /><br />Take Care<br /><br />Jimmy

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Where did I state nothing is going on in the hobby? I said there is more good than bad and I do think the bad gets stated more often than the good...?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I was just chop busting u bro, u were very politically correct in ur statement. I love my bottle so thanks for sending me home. Dan

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's hard to tell behind a keyboard....I luv ya man!! And I missed your Dad getting between us in a squabble this year. He is the best. ....I am going to edit my little comment above.....hey, I like the bottle too!!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>u could have left that comment! It is all good. No sweat here my friend. Heck pop just sat there, we could have used a mediator back then. Too funny. Dano

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"οἱ πολλοί"<br /><br /><br />Nice!

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>While Mastro may or may not be a totally "clean" business, it's hard to believe the feds would start with them. It seems there are so many other 2nd-tier outfits with blatant examples of saying cards sold when they did not, shilling etc. They might not be as big as mastro, but they are so obviously suspect you would think the feds would start there first.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I don't know why you say that, Eric...<br /><br />Coach's Corner does not realize those crazy prices, which should serve as evidence of no shill bidding or wrong-doing. Their items simply sell for the highest bid amount. Case in point... Ruth Balls for $800, Josh Gibson cuts for $500 and even Joe Jackson autos for under $1,000. Nope, no wrongdoing there! <br /><br />For the record, I think it is ridiculous and an unjust double-standard as well. I am 100% positive that numerous other auction houses are far more corrupt, and am praying that 3 - 4 of them are investigated to a greater extent than Mastro.

"The Feds Are Here To Stay"
 

Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Does anyone have O'Keeffe's e-mail address?<br /><br />thanks!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>