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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br />Not okay to add glue to paste them into scrapnbooks but once done also not okay to undo it.<br /><br />Rest is you are being silly--<br /><br />I am against card alteration and restoration not brushing dust off.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>"Under your definition anything is acceptable"<br /><br />Jim, I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion based on what I wrote. I am in favor of removing any type of built up residue on any piece of art, any card etc. I also favor putting things back together if the original pieces still exist. I am opposed to adding new pieces or new color to any historical objects. I am also against trimming whether it be manicuring the borders of a T206 or giving Michelangelo's David a haircut.<br /><br />Howard
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Frank, These are the only folded-up planes you should straighten.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165787749.JPG">
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Beautiful Corsair... F4U or FG ??? Looks like that is at Pennsicola NAS??<br /><br /><br />And Jim, you've told us dusting is ok. What about unfolding a folded T206??? Is that ok, or not?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Howard,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />It's as easy to make the case that brushing dust off a card is alteration as it is to make one that removing glue residue by soaking in water is alteration.<br /><br />Sorry, it's just your subjective view on this matter. There are clearly a handful of other that share this view with you, but when the great majority all view it differently, well that different view starts to look objective. <br /><br />Everyone differs in their opinion about this. I personally draw the line at water. Any chemicals that are used cross the line into alteration, but that's just my subjective opinion. <br /><br />What about this scenario: Not all glues are soluble in water. If you soak a card in water and it still won't come off the paper so you tear it off, removing most of the back in the process, do you consider that alteration? Or is that just me being silly?<br /><br />-Ryan
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You know what's funny? <br />What is considered paper's worst enemy?<br />Moisture.<br />Which brings me to another interesting (at least in my mind) thought.<br />Paper is created with fibre and water being mixed, pressed and dried. It is dried to a very specific remaining water content to best maintain its stability to survive going forward.......anyone want to hazard a guess what the moisture content level remaining in the paper after you have 'pressed and dried' it is? Any chance you have increased it's natural and intended levels for optimal survival, and that even small increases of heat or humidity could now create conditions likely for the paper to start to mould and break down.....? Just a thought for the soakers. If what you are doing eventually ends up in the premature breakdown and loss of these cards, how will you then justify it? Will it be ok because you paid for them and it was your right to do as you chose, or will you feel any kind of responsibility to the hobby as a whole for destroying some of what remains of vintage sportscard stock?<br /><br />Just a query, as Frank is so fond of posing.<br /><br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><i>Any chance you have increased it's natural and intended levels for optimal survival, and that even small increases of heat or humidity could now create conditions likely for the paper to start to mould and break down.....? </i><br /><br /><font color=blue>I suppose that's what the stage know as "drying" is for. The card will have ambient humidity whether it is wet and then dried or if it is dry and then takes on humidity from the air.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Papers worst enemy is fire.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>My little cards have always hated being sealed up and slabbed...<br /><br /><br />Jim, what about unfolding a folded T206??? Is that altering, is it ok?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>David, and I respect your knowledge if you are representing yourself as somewhat expert in this area, do you understand the amount of water remaining in the card after being pressed between some version of blotting paper and some books as not being significantly greater than paper/card that has been manufactured for long term substrate use for lithographic or painting purposes? That is, I know paper that has higher moisture levels will absolutely mold, especially in the right heat conditions. It is why you have to be careful in how you keep books in differing humidity georgraphical areas. Still, it is relatively hard for paper that is 'open' to the elements to draw significant moisture from 'normal' humidity (non tropical) factors and usually it will not start the mold process. I am guessing that pressing out water after soaking would still leave hugely elevated amounts of water remaining in the paper pulp itself, and be more prone to such problems. The natural drying process is not the same as the kiln like rooms that paper is dried out in.<br />Do you know it to be otherwise?<br /><br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Daniel, <br /><br />Personally, I think glue remaining on a card would be far more destructive than this mysterious water-retention alteration you've posited. <br /><br />But a much more legitimate concern should be what will happen to the paper residing inside of a slab after 20 or 30 years? Although they are not air-tight, they are pretty close. Some of the sealed card condoms within slabs probably are airtight. Depending on the quality of paper, the acids that are released over time will destroy the card itself without air to dissolve into.<br /><br />Anyone who has collected pulp magazines for more than 10 years has probably had the experience of witnessing fairly white pages become brittle and brown almost before their eyes. <br /><br />Most baseball cards weren't made on such poor quality paper (maybe some strip cards) but still have acids in them that shouldn't be trapped inside an airtight environment. <br /><br />Jim, since you have thousands of high-grade cards in slabs, care to speculate on what they might be like in 20 years? Do you plan to poke holes in the slabs to let some air in? Are you altering the cards by letting the acids destroy the integrity of the cards?<br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p><FONT COLOR="red">I come back to my argument that it is just wrong to alter these historical treasures and they should always be maintained in the same condition in which they were found.</FONT><br /><br /><FONT COLOR="blue">Your argument is that soaking cards with water is "wrong." You can keep saying it over and over again, but at this stage of the argument it would be useful if you would respond to some of the counter arguments with something other than it is "wrong." Your explanation for why it is wrong has thus far not been persuasive to most of us. <br /><br />Basically, you advance a cause that cannot be policed, monitored or enforced -- and that most people in the industry disagree with. It will take more than repeating your belief that it is "wrong" to change that.</FONT><br /><br /><FONT COLOR="purple">Paul</FONT><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>For those who oppose removing cards from a scrapbook- and I would like to add that I have never owned a scrapbook of cards so my argument is purely theoretical- what if you simply don't want them glued in and would prefer to remove them so that they can be placed in plastic sheets and merged with the rest of one's collection? Should they still be left as is? I realize we reach a dilemma when the cards eventually hit the marketplace, but until that point what's wrong with removing them? What if poor quality paste was used and the cards pretty much fall out with just a little pressure. I don't even know what we are arguing about (actually, every topic on this board ends in an argument, so why am I surprised?)
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Ryan, I would have to think that these magically cleaned off cards that have had the glue removed so effortlessly that they now reside in high grade holders would answer your first question. Obviously, 90+ years of being in contact with most glues of that time had absolutely zero effect on the card's structure or finish. Perhaps some staining, but generally no flesh eating disorders resulting in layers of paper being digested.<br /><br />And secondly, your point regarding the effect of being in a semi-airtight container such as a slab is probably an excellent one, and if anyone made valid observations showing it was negative to the long term preservation of my cards, I would instantly drill nice precise little holes into a corner of each one of them. <br /><br />Breathe, my babies, breathe.<br /><br /><br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>In the past, when I broke slabbed cards from their little tombs, I thought it was ok... was I altering those cards? Once slabbed, was I supposed to leave them in there?<br /><br /><br />And Jim, still no word that I've seen about whether it is ok to unfold a folded T206....
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Barry, me thinks it is possible to remove these cards without soaking them.<br />Firstly, I wonder if people who are removing cards from scrapbooks actually remove an entire page and put it into the bath, or simply turn over the page and dampen the back of where the card is adhered, moistening it enough to release the card on the front....<br />It is the secondary process of full nudity bathing in a giant pool to then remove remnants off the back of the card that I have issue with. Not because I am all too fussed about the removal of glue, but because one man's dunking for that purpose is another man's dunking for later stretching and trimming. I still don't see how anyone has dealt with the issue of boundaries, and quite clearly from a lot of responses there are a wide wide range.<br /><br />For me, I would prefer a black and white situation, even if the detection and prosecution of its tenets were hard, difficult, near impossible, or there were none.<br />1. Don't do anything to the cards.<br />2. Do whatever you like to the cards.<br /><br />Anything in between to me has no real meaning as I can have no hope of knowing if one man's steak was simply another man's jerky.<br /><br /><br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Anything in between to me has no real meaning as I can have no hope of knowing if one man's steak was simply another man's jerky.]<br /><br />Why do you think PSA, SGC and the majority of the people on this Board have found a line in between 1 and 2? If it were just an imagined line or if it was made up, why do most of us seem to come out the same way on issues of trimming, color added and water soaking? <br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>You SOAK them off of covers and dry them and collect them. It has no ill effect on them and it is 100% condoned by the hobby.<br /><br />Soaking a tobacco or caramel card has the same effect on the card NONE. When properly done a less than perfect card becomes a nice little collectible.<br /><br />For those keeping score at home we have approx. 3-4 anti soakers, a few borderline soakers and a overwhelming contingency of Soak til you drop.<br /><br />It seems a few are trying to make the rules for all the rest, except that their desire goes against the hobby norm.<br /><br />Scott
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>After reading the posts I really cannot decide (and probably do not care enough) whether cards have been soaked. If a seller was aware I would probably appreciate having that information disclosed. I have a few examples with scrapbook still attached, none of which have anything terribly important on the reverse (a T206 and a N302 come to mind). This one left some card behind but also took a little scrapbook. <br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165792590.JPG">
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Paul,<br />I think you are entirely incorrect to suppose some sort of unanamity amongst the collectors on this board, SGC and PSA.<br />I would have thought every thread, discussion, scan of cards inside holders from the grading companies, and admission of altering by auction houses, dealers and casual collectors had made that amazingly clear.<br />I think there are many who consider crease removal ok, amongst all of those groups, and others who would argue the ok'ness of every other form of card alteration.....and for some sort of validation let me supply this card.<br /><br />It has been trimmed, color added, pencil mark added to the back, and perhaps other things I am unaware of. SGC was quite happy to slab it. You say Authentic only, I say the very designation has 'ethicalized' those activities that have befallen it and that the Authentic grade of the future will have much of the cache of any other grade, especially if the card presents well. So, trimming is OK, and so is re-coloring, and for many on this board so is crease removal.<br />Please, don't try and tell me there is a single voice on card alteration.<br />That would be a joke.<br /><br />Kind regards<br /><br />And by the way, I wouldn't be adverse to an 'anything goes' rule, as long as every card sold was disclosed for its procedures, and if slabbed received nothing more than the Authentic flip. For me, it would be much clearer.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165357399.GIF">
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>yes frank, you may unfold the folded card...<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Ryan,<br /><br /> Putting it in water in the first place is alteration so everything that follows is as well..and nin regard to your 2nd post I am not going to be poking holes in my holders.<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />Sorry if I cannot be more articulate--I just think that anything done to change a card is wrong and soaking changes the card--what else do you want me to say?<br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />After reading your nasty posts on card grading amd the people who grade them again and again and again and again until I sick of seeing them and your ridiculous comments, I am pretending you are not there--<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Do you disagree that "most of us seem to come out the same way on issues of trimming, color added and water soaking?"<br /><br />There are, of course, closer calls with respect to the issue of pencil erasures. Leon ran several polls in August on soaking, erasing and removing creases. Most people came out in favor of soaking and erasing, but not removing creases.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />You can ridicule us all you like but it does not change the fact that you are altering the card.<br /><br />We have seen the uproar that has occurred when you and the rest of the dealers make the rules. Most dealers are taking out light creases, soaking cards--many are microtrimming cards and reshaping/rebuilding them in various ways. I would represent the hobby is shocked.<br /><br />And you have a major grading company president calling card alteration an epidemic and that microtrimming and reshaping cards are exploding as a percentage of submissions. <br /><br />Yet all is okay in your world as a dealer.<br /><br />I am sure you are one of the honest guys as I do not know you well but I am appalled over the lack of dealer ethics and the willingness of their buddies who are collectors to look the other way!<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Sorry if I cannot be more articulate--I just think that anything done to change a card is wrong and soaking changes the card--what else do you want me to say?]<br /><br />I am just saying that a large majority of people on this board, and the major grading companies, disagree with you about soaking. If you are going to change the hearts and minds of all of these people, you are going to have to explain why it is wrong in the face of the arguments that people have been making about why it isn't wrong. Simply restating your opening position in the argument isn't going to get us anywhere.<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Daniel- depending upon how tightly the cards are glued down, if you remove them from an album without soaking them you may destroy every one of them. That can't be a good plan. And for those who aren't aware- if you studied paper restoration and conservation, soaking and cleaning are standard accepted practices. I realize that baseball cards are different than say posters or albumen photographs, where conservation and repair are more the norm. But soaking to remove glue is a time tested process. Does it alter the card in any way? Same exact card, just without the paper and glue. Seems reasonable to me (but obviously not to all).
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>After much reading and thought on this, I believe I have the reason the 3 or 4 people in the thread are staunchly against soaking. <br /><br />It's akin to people liking hot dogs, they love the finished product, but do not want to know what all happened in the processing to make it that way. To know such would spoil the flavor.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br />edited to add a consonant
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />Thats because you are not willing to say that anything you do to alter a card is wrong.<br /><br />It is a simple premise--if you cannot accept it what can I do.<br /><br />And I do not view any of the arguments on the other side as being very persuasive.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I don't know Paul, run the numbers by me again <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />No, I'm kidding. On re-coloring, trimming, and now apparently with soaking, a large majority of posters have been in favour of soaking and anti the first two. I would love to see a poll done which might draw on a whole lot more people who perhaps don't love to jump into the fray so to speak, especially into a seemingly losing cause and with the kind of condemnation posters like myself receive for EVEN QUESTIONING the practice. Still, I'd be interested in the break down on another poll.<br />And with all of these issues, I think a wider poll of collectors outside of the little world of Net54 would be altogether more interesting. And, if the thoughts of this board were wildly off-kilter with the rest of the collecting community, I wonder if this chatroom of experts we banty with would make fun of general joe and jenny for their 'lack of real knowledge', or whether people on this board might be willing to say that they had just got it wrong on these issues.<br /><br /><br />Regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Excellent point.<br /><br />After we have our hobby dinner, conference call(s) we are going to try to do some polls--I would bet that people on the cu message boards for example and hopefully lts would be against this--or would be shocked to see that it occurs...<br /><br />Yes--Scott--collectors like the finished product but I disagree with the rest--they are very angry with the dealers whose way of doing business is to alter the cards to get a higher grade.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...my position is easy. I just adhere to whatever PSA and SGC say is okay. Before I began spending oodles of money on graded T206 cards, I made sure that the industry standard for grading was something that I agreed with. No on trimming, color added; yes on water soaking. Those are the big ones for me. I never would have soaked my first card if it wouldn't get slabbed by SGC -- I'd have left the paper on the back. And I've known trimming and color adding has been a no no since a dealer wouldn't buy my 1986 Fleer Jose Canseco card after I colored in the corners and trimmed off an edge circa 1988. <br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Let me try to bottom line this:<br /><br />Whether you think soaking is right or wrong - IT DOESN'T MATTER. <br /><br />If the grading companies can't detect it, it's a non-issue. And I feel fairly confident in adding that no one is going to alert the grading company that the card they are submitting has been soaked. So until water shows up under a blacklight or they determine a method to test the water content of the paper against a guaranteed unsoaked test sample - I refrain IT DOESN'T MATTER what we think.<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If you have an army of people on the CU boards who agree with you, I recommend that you (a) post there about these things; and (b) lobby PSA to agree with you.<br /><br />Paul<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>That is how little children do it... they just pretend something isn't there...<br /><br />Do you do that with your eyes closed, Jim??? That is how little kids do it.<br /><br />Maybe try pretending that cards are not, nor have they ever been soaked. <br /><br />Reminds me of a story from when I was out campaigning door to door. I was out in the country, trying to knock on doors and ask for support. At one house there was a sign, "Free Republican Puppies" painted on a piece of plywood. I pulled up the gravel drive and knocked on the door, no one was home. Well, I couldn't let that house go unsolicited. Neighbors might mention I was out in that part of the county, and those folks would feel like I didn't stop to see them, possibly costing votes. So after a few weeks I went back out to that one house. I was in luck. A car and a pickup truck, both in the drive. And the plywood sign still leaned against a tree, but it had been repainted. "For Sale, $5 each, good Democratic Puppies". I knocked on the door, and had a nice conversation with both husband and wife. As I left the porch steps I could see that sign, so I turned and asked them about the puppies. Yes, they still had two, five dollars each. I asked about the puppies they had a few weeks earlier, and both husband and wife assured me they were the same puppies. Why did the puppies change party, why free before and now $5, what was the difference I asked.... "Oh, they have their eyes open now."
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />I'm not sure that was the conclusion--I thought in many cases you can tell if the card has been soaked???
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />I totally agree with you. Fighting against phantom alterations that can never be detected is useless and a waste of time.<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[I thought in many cases you can tell if the card has been soaked]<br /><br />Nope.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Maybe put some sort of ultaviolet dye in all oceans, lakes, creeks, rivers, clouds, puddles and ponds. Then, if some rascal uses water on a card, the card cops can catch 'em. Distribution of that dye would be a good job for that "where do we go from here" committee that's going to police slabbers and auction houses.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Scott- <br /><br />sorry to say that my views on this topic have nothing to do with the "hot dog" theory...i just don't like the idea of "soaking" cards...<br /><br />T206collector- <br /><br />were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Paul, Jack, there's an old saying back in Kentucky about wasting time like that.<br /><br />It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of time, and annoys hell outa the pig.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />If someone is going to continually resort to insults and attacks then I will not respond--and thats it--I am only going to respond to serious posts...and not from you about your right angle grading or some ridiculous comment.<br /><br />Everyone else can debate while you resort to insults--whats wrong with you?<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If soaking is detectable and the grading companies are still grading them, your beef is with them. I'm just guessing that it's not detectable and therefore, you probably own some.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I've become old and intollerant of some forms of foolishness. That is one of the things wrong with me.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jack,<br /><br />Perhaps so--you think many soaked cards are in psa 8 or psa 9 holders?<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>People like yourself are the reason SOME people alter cards, I am not talking about soaking cards at this point, but many of the other aberations you bring up. Greed. You are willing to pay ridiculous prices to satisfy your ego and registry set without learning what you are buying. YOU and others like you are what illicit dealers in ALL hobbys thrive on, an uneducated collector with big bucks looking to buy high grade material with out questioning the item. It's a viscious cirle and your caught up in it.<br /><br />The large consensus of collectors(read not investors) on this board are not concerned with any of the worries you have because they don't buy PSA 8's. (edited to add) Yes, a lot of high grade cards in all holders have been soaked out of scrap books, you probably own more than you would care to know.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Amen, Scott.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if you found an album of baseball cards and the cards were glued in and you preferred to have them out of the album, what would you do? After all, it is your album and you are free to remove them. I think you are looking at this issue in the eyes of a PSA-8 collector, and are assuming glued cards will suddenly turn into into NR MT/MT cards and find their way into holders. What if the cards, even after they are removed, would still be no better than good or very good? Why can't a collector feel free to take them out?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed.]<br /><br />The higher the grade, the less noticeable the soaking. My SGC 70 Pfeister up there early in this post has no traceable evidence. Other cards have bits of paper loss or evidence of scrapbook removal which demonstrate that the card was once in a water solution. SGC has problems with chemical removal. They may not be overtly telling you to soak your cards, or endorsing that practice -- but they will tell you that if you soak a card in water that they will grade it. I have asked them. That was the answer.<br /><br />Runscott's initial post in 2002 (citation above) spoke about lines on the reverse of T206 cards, where the card used to rest in an album. I have an SGC 50 -- formerly PSA 4 -- with those lines. Those lines are the remnants of soaking. It's obvious. Why would PSA and SGC grade those cards if they knew the card had been soaked, as I did?<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>What Scott said. <br /><br />Jim, as I have said before, you probably should have done your research on whether T206 cards could be soaked out of albums to maintain their original freshness before you started dropping thousands on those PSA 8's. <br /><br />The questions you are now asking would have better been asked before your initial purchases.<br /><br />Paul
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I don't know what kind of numbers are out there, but it wouldn't be a stretch to believe that the reason there are true 8s and 9s (that haven't been trimmed, stretched,etc) is because they were safely and lovingly placed in a scrapbook at some time and not carried around in some kids pocket or rubberbanded and thrown under the bed. Hence, their corners look great and they have less wrinkles than I'll have at their age. (someone put me in a scrapbook please).
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />If you want to sell off condition cards be my guest.<br /><br />I like sharp cards and I have no interest in owninng cards that are off center, creases, a lot of wear etc.<br /><br />And it is out of line for you to suggest I and others like me collect cards to satisfy my(our) ego.<br /><br />I collect cards because I love the hobby. And from what I have seen collectors who collect high-end cards are just as passionate about the hobby as those who collect the low end stuff.<br /><br />The PSA 8 and above collectors I consider to be the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />Keep on altering those cards baby.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Do you think anyone wants to be in your Committee when you make ignorant comments like: "The PSA 8 and above collectors I consider to be the backbone of the hobby."<br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Remind me to take anything you say with a grain of salt. Your guarantee is absolutely worthless. Whatever credibility you may have had just went out the window. You can't just drop words like "guarantee" into a conversation on a whim, knowing nothing about the thing you claim to guarantee. Wait, actually you can, but then your word becomes meaningless. <br /><br />You are 100% incorrect about the grading companies. They absolutely know about soaking and DO NOT consider it alteration. Call them up and ask for yourself. <br /><br />It's true. I guarantee it. <br /><br />-Ryan
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>paul,<br /><br />You are way off there.<br /><br />PSA 8s of vintage cards have far and away been the best investments in the hobby. Almost every card I have bought I could sell at a substantial project.<br /><br />I think you need to do a little research here--sorry the low-to-mid grade stuff you buy has not worked out so well.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />I have said that before on here--I believe it to be true--the low-to-mid grade collector is becoming less and less important to the hobby in my judgment.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Blach</b><p>There just hasn't been enough rancor on this thread so I thought I'd wade in.<br /><br />Who are you? <br /><br />Who are you to tell me that soaking a piece of paper stuck to the back of my zeenut card somehow makes me unethical?<br /><br />Who appointed you the "soaking police"?<br /><br />Whoever you are you haven't convinced me, nor most of the other posters on this thread, that there is anything wrong with it. In fact, though you have been asked that question over and over, you haven't been able to articulate a reasoned response to why it is improper.<br /><br /><br />Edited: In case you need to know I am Stephen R. Murray.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No need to insult the collectors of lower grade cards. The PSA-2 collector is just as passionate as the PSA-8 collector.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ryan-<br /><br />my first instinct as a red-blooded new york italian was to loose my cool and attack...but you know what? you are right, thanks for the quick lesson...i genuinely mean that. i shouldn't have used the word "guarentee"...<br /><br />what i should have said was "i would be surprised" if PSA & SGC endorse the "soaking method"...
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Sorry to say I don't alter any cards, I have soaked some off paper and I have erased a few stray pencil marks but thats about it and you know what PSA and SGC graded them all. <br /><br />You portray to be a devoted collector but detest creases, off center, etc. How could you ever collect RARE cards? You collect comodities in the purest form, PSA 8's of 1950's and 1960's and even later, where the population extant is in the tens of thousands overall and each card has pops in the hundreds. Perhaps the board should see what you collect. My favorite is the Virgil Trucks master set. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/listothersets.chtml?rsetid=680" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/set%5Fregistry/listothersets.chtml?rsetid=680</a><br /><br /><br /><br />I and many others on this board collect cards so rare you can't even imagine. With populations in the single digits or in many cases 1-2 known.<br /><br />As others have suggested go back to CU where you can covort with others of the same ilk.<br /><br />Scott<br /><br /><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Hi Blach,<br />Perhaps you are referring to Jim, but If I'm included then please have a quick look at my post way above.<br /><br />I think I articulated 3 reasoned viewpoints on why soaking might not jibe, and why the reasoning for it doesn't seem so terrific.<br /><br />And Its not soaking police, its the soaking policewoman - at least in my fantasies it is anyway...<br /><br /><br />regards<br />Daniel
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Many of us that collect the "low to mid grade stuff" simply don't care if we wake up tomorrow morning and our cards are worth less than the paper that they are printed on...we just enjoy collecting as a relaxing hobby. <br /><br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />If you soak a pig will its value decrease?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Blach,<br /><br />I am offering my opinion.<br /><br />I think all types of alteration and restoration is wrong--in many cases it is deceptive.<br /><br />If you want to soak the cards soak on, if you want to trim cards, trim on, if you want to take out creases go ahead. I cannot stop you.<br /><br />You have a different opinion--I think you are altering the card.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...collecting with your PSA 8 and above friends. I'm done responding to your posts.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Scott, I love the Hot Dog comparison. Does anybody know what they put in hot dogs? (If not see the movie "The Great Outdoors" with John Candy)<br /><br />-Rhett (decidedly pro-soaking)
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John S,<br /><br />Obviously. I like to collect to.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>To say the low to mid-grade collector is becoming less important to the hobby, when you're on a message board full of low-to-mid-grade collectors is pretty unfair. It is also untrue. Low to mid grade cards sell with greater frequency every single day, and the pool of buyers is much, much greater in size than the pool of high-grade buyers. It is also the reason you're getting a hard time on this topic, Jim, because the likelihood that a PSA 8 T206 has been soaked off an album page is, in my opinion, pretty damn close to 100%.<br /><br />That being said, it is also very unfair to continuously attack Jim for collecting PSA 8s. Jim collects high grade cards. Get over it. He knows as much about what he collects as many of the others on this board know about what they collect, and he's just as passionate. It is SO lame to continuously read the response "Oh yeah? Well you collect high-grade cards, so you don't know what you're talking about." every time Jim says something you disagree with. <br /><br />It's funny how I never hear anyone getting on anyone for their collecting preferences on this board, EXCEPT those who collect high-grade cards (except Frank's inane ramblings against graded collectors, but I've learned to ignore that). Collect cards of catchers? Great. Collect Lefty O'Doul? Very cool. Collect 19th Century left-handed ballplayers? More power to you. Collect prewar rookie cards of left-handed catchers with glasses? Great. Collect high-grade cards? You are the infidel.<br /><br />Makes no ssense to me.<br /><br />Oh, on topic? Soaking is fine, IMO, so long as you're not soaking to press out a crease or a wrinkle. Someone asked where you draw the line? That's where I draw it. I soak to remove paper, gunk, and grime, and apply no pressure to the card except slight pressure during the process of drying a card. I've never seen a wrinkle come out as a result of the slight pressure.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Blach</b><p>Excuse me Mr. Crandall!<br /><br />"If you want to soak the cards soak on, if you want to trim cards, trim on, if you want to take out creases go ahead. I cannot stop you."<br /><br />Where in the hell in my post did I say anything about trimming cards or taking creases out of cards????<br /><br />This is a soaking thread and that is what I addressed.<br /><br />Blach (Stephen R. Murray)
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Y'all ought to just agree to disagree. Neither group is going to convince the other. Personally I don't see any problem with soaking a card in water to remove glue or paper, because I have not heard any compelling evidence that it changes the card in any way, and many knowledgeable and experienced people are saying it doesn't. But it doesn't bother me if others feel differently.
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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>What Al and Peter just said. <br /><br />Can we all go get a beer now?
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I also have some high grade sets on the Registry. The only diffence is they are really TOUGH sets. However some of my sets aren't slabbed at all and no one with any amount of money could come close to duplicating them. They are the truely rare baseball cards that the vast majority of this board apprieciates.<br /><br /><br />Scott<br />
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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>" Almost every card I have bought I could sell at a substantial project.<br /><br />I think you need to do a little research here--sorry the low-to-mid grade stuff you buy has not worked out so well."<br /><br />Since I've no intention of selling any of my cards and do not look at them as "investments", "any low-to-mid grade stuff" I've purchased have worked out quite well for me, Mr. Backbone.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Do not why you are so nasty but you are truly uninformed about graded card collecting and particularly high end graded card collecting.<br /><br />Try to collect some of the sets in psa 8 and better. Good luck. Commodities--ha!<br /><br />Who said I want to collect a rarity. Maybe I want to collect sets from the years I grew up in in psa 8 or psa 9 wherre the cards look sharp and I don't get sick by looking at the creases etc. And since I love the hobby I want to collect pre-war sets in high grade.<br /><br />Let someone else collect the rarities--nothing wrong with it--just not my thing.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I appreciate them too--I am on this board primarily to learn and I have learned a lot.<br /><br />But doesn't mean that I want to collect them.<br /><br />Jim
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>more so than you think. Not trying to be nasty, just eye opening perhaps. All is not as it may seem inside your little plastic world.<br /><br />Collect on and enjoy.<br /><br />Scott
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I was not implying that you do not enjoy collecting. I was just responding to your earlier comments. I truly respect your preferences to collect whatever you want. If I had the money to purchase PSA 8 T-cards I would use it to buy as many GD-VG examples as possible. That is my preference. As others have stated however, your concerns (which are by no means invalid) do not affect the majority of individuals on this board.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I feel like a mediator. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jim, one thing Scott is most definitely NOT is lacking knowledge about graded cards. Scott is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there.<br /><br />Scott, I think Jim collects cards from the eras he watched as a boy, which precludes a lot of rarities. I don't think it makes his collection less legitimate. Building 100 sets where every card is a PSA 8 or better is extraordinarily difficult in its own right, and requires a great deal of diligence.<br /><br />Personally, I prefer scarcity over condition. But that's just me. That's what's so cool about this hobby - I can learn from a guy like Jim, and he can learn from a guy like Scott, and everyone can be better for it, provided we're willing to accept that there's more than one way to do this hobby.<br /><br />-Al
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hi Al,<br /><br />Thanks for jumping in. Sorry--I get the urge to tell it like it is or at least how I think it is.<br /><br />I disagree with you about the T206 psa 8s were once glued to pages but at least I know that you and I can disagree without an attack or people presuming why I act a certain way. And I respect your point of view on soaking just like I respect others--I just completely disagree.<br /><br />When are we going out to dinner and a ball game--the Nets are not looking too good recently.<br /><br />JIm
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I don't know why you have to be so nasty--<br /><br />Good luck--in my view there is a tremendous amount of card alteration in your low condition ungraded pre-warr world and there is no need to insult collectors of graded cards.<br /><br />You obviously know a lot about rare cards and apparently do not care about the grade.<br /><br />However many many sets I collect are extraordinarily tough in high grade and I think having a psa 10 1941 Play Ball is more exciting than a poor-fair card of a rarity.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Sure we can disagree. As long as you realize that I'm right. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The Nets have been a nightmare. I've been spending more time in the bar than I have in my seat.<br /><br />Then again, I do that when the Nets are doing well, too.<br /><br />-Al
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