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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My doorbell rang 7:00 this morning and it was the fed ex man with the lot I won in REA...boy, I always knew Rob was fast.<br /><br />And I even got a full night's sleep!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Quan -- you're right: the system works as long as you don't live on the east coast!

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Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>I went to sleep with two lots and woke up with none....but its a fair auction. I had the opportunity to put higher bids in before sleeping but didn't. <br /><br />Personally I wonder if the method of ending the auction wouldn't be made a little better by announcing 15 minutes and done once they start to only get a bid or two during a 5 or ten minute period of time - that would then spur all remaining bidders to try to get their bids in. I gave up staying up and while I had put in my bids long before the end of the auction on one of the lots might I have bid again if I were still up? maybe.<br /><br />I do like to see the end of an auction lot that I'm interested in, but unfortunately the days of going once, going twice gone seem to be gone!!<br /><br />Overall I think its the best auction out there

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>one of the best reads I have had in a while.<br /><br />just dripping with emotion.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Maybe I'm missing something here? I thought these major auctions had been going until 3 or 4 or 5ish in the morning for years. <br /><br />The Ruth doubled in price, went up $220K, in the hour between about 1:40 and 2:40 a.m. How could he have ended the auction when a premier lot was taking $10K jumps? I know it's a pain in the rear to have auctions run so late, but in this case I can't see how it was not the best thing for both sellers and buyers - at least the Ruth card suggests that.<br /><br />And I've never followed one of these to the end - I usually put in a high bid at some point and call it a night - but I thought that this went the same ways as those I have followed. The auction shows an end time of X:30 a.m. You watch until X:28 ... X:29 ... and then at X:30 you either get an Auction Closed message or the time left now updates to X:45 and you start the process over again. I mean ... there was a clock, wasn't there?<br /><br />I think the only difference in this method is that for the old way the only way to get the Auction Closed was no bids in that 15 minutes. Now Rob reserves the right to put up Auction Closed even if there are bids in that 15 minutes if those bids are minimal. He sent out a great email yesterday explaining how some people would bid on minor, cheap lots to hold the auction open for premium items - trying to outlast everyone else.<br /><br />So ... coming from someone that was not struggling to stay awake at 3:42 in the morning, I guess I'm not seeing how this is that different from what's been done in the past.<br /><br />And Dave F made a great call. It would be much much better if there were a way to see what exactly was getting bid on late in the game. Otherwise it is kind of just looking at a screen.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Joann - <br /><br />"Maybe I'm missing something here? I thought these major auctions had been going until 3 or 4 or 5ish in the morning for years. "<br /><br /><br />I think the major difference is.... we are getting older and crankier.<br /><br />Also, Mastro's new format sort of helps ease that crankiness with a merciful format - and great feedback on each lot (with a countdown clock).<br />So - we now see what 'could be' at REA.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>OK. I get it. Thanks Joe.<br /><br />So it's not that they didn't have a clock, exactly. Even in the past you couldn't know at the end of which 15 minute increment you would get the Auction Closed message instead of a new 15 minute clock. So that part of it hasn't changed - just the mechanism behind the scenes as to what shuts it off, a no-bid period or Rob determining not to allow minor bids on off items to extend the entire auction endlessly.<br /><br />That makes more sense - that it's a preference for the other closing method and not necessarily a departure from past practices or lack of an actual clock.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- I started to get cranky way before I got old!

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>REA turned into exactly what it is advertised not to be--a contest to see who could stay up the latest. Hopefully some day Rob will go to a system where lots close individually.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I know that it must be torture for you guys to see an auction stay open that late, but I went to bed at midnight and checked some auctions that I was just casually watching and the jump is pretty startling in some of them.<br /><br />The Knickerbocker photo was sitting at $14,000 when I went to bed and it ended at $50,000. I think the Baltimore Ruth was at $200,000 and it sold for $440,000. The Butter cream Ruth was at $70,000 and ended at $95,000. That's a lot of money still coming in after 1:00 AM EST.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I think Rob would argue that his "Honest Auti-Bid" system alleviates the need to stay up late. I have seen this in print many times, from REA.<br /><br />REA stresses that it is a "no worries" system and that your ceiling bid is only executed after another bid has been placed. <br /><br />I know there are still lots of people who are uncomfortable with leaving "top bids" or ceiling bids (myself included). But I still think that the benefits, and ability to switch lots outweighs the lots closing individually. It is better for consignors, and keeping the auction open enables many from being shutout.<br /><br />I know the opinions swing both ways on this, and I'm a West Coast person... would be interesting to see how it breaks down- East Coast vs. West!

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />That's a really good point that I had forgotten about - that Rob frequently says that the Honest AutoBid can be used so you don't have to stay up. <br /><br />But to respond to Rob on that point, people can't really do that. If you have $50K to spend and are interested in 5 items, you can't leave a $50K max on each item because you might win in a combination that exceeds your $50K budget. If you leave a $10K max on each then you'll probably lose all 5 lots.<br /><br />A bidder wants to be able to take his $50K and jump from lot to lot, changing the mix among the 5 as some move higher. Using Honest AutoBid doesn't really allow people to not stay up late.<br /><br />I still think the close-at-once is the most fair to bidders and sellers, and to be honest I like the fact that Rob has reserved the right to close even if there have been one or two minor bids in a 15-minute period (to stop the practice he described via email of a bidder bidding on a minor lot to keep the auction open and try to outlast everyone else on a major lot).<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Know what? I've never emailed an auction with a general question before, but I might this time.<br /><br />I think it would be really interesting to see some kind of time-based information of when money came in. Not lot by lot, but for the whole auction. You'd have the big bump in the first few days, followed by a dramatic taper off until extended time, then a bump at extension with another taper.<br /><br />Most interesting would be the hour by hour view of the increase in total auction value starting at 4:00 yesterday. Or better yet, look at it in 15 minute increments. I bet that it would show that Rob probably picked a very good time to end - when people had had every opportunity to go strong for what they wanted, but when the incoming bids had trickled to a value that was too low to justify keeping the entire auction open and needlessly frustrating bidders.<br /><br />I just might email and ask that question. <br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joann- when I conduct an auction my two busiest days by far are the first and the last. Everything in between is pretty much periodic bidding. I would think every auction follows the same pattern.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>The only reason Rob needs to end it at 4 AM to allow everyone to get their bids in, is because he ended it around the same time last year, so everyone was just waiting until early morning to bid. If he ended last year at 11 PM EST people would get their bids in before then this year and it would end around the same time again. It's not as if someone won the lottery between 11 PM and 4 AM.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Barry - I would think so too. I'm most interested though in the pattern within the last day - the pattern within the 15 minute time increments starting with 4:00 yesterday. A lot of people here seemed understandably frustrated by the fact that the auction went on a long time - until past 3:30 a.m. But I bet that if we could see the numbers we would find that there was substantial bidding going on during much of that time and that Rob was right to leave it open for that long. <br /><br />I think I saw somewhere that the auction total was $9 million? So if just the Ruth went up $200K, plus add another $35K for the increased buyers fee on that 200, then the total auction value increased by $255K just on that one lot in about an hour from 1:30 to 2:30 a.m. That's almost a 3% increase in auction value on one lot in one hour. I bet if we could see the increase in all lots for those hours it would be a lot more than 3%.<br /><br />So how could he close?<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />That's just simply not true. He didn't end it at 4:00 this year to maintain a pattern from ending it at 4:00 last year. In the past it ended when there were no bids in 15 minutes. This year he reserved the right to end it a little earlier rather than allow minor bidding to extend the entire auction. I don't even know what time he ended it last year - I thought it went quite aways into the following day.<br /><br />These auctions can't just pick a time and end the auction, and the time on the clock is and should be the last - the very last - way to end these auctions. Otherwise you'd have sniping like on ebay, and that's exactly the reasons the big boys can't and won't do it. Whether they end all at once or a lot at a time after no action on that lot, the bottom line is that no one can say they got sniped on a lot. So shooting for a particular ending time, especially to try to be consistent with what you did last year, makes no business sense.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>Auction house wish list<br /><br />1. That all auctions with more than 183 lots adopt Mastro's 30 minute rule, with their new shorter extended bidding.<br />2. That auction houses stop killing buyers and consigners alike by having ego wars that cause 3 major auctions end with 72 hours of each other<br />3. That REA have more than 1 auction a year!

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>joann - not sure what you disagree with. Many of us bidding last night didn't bid earlier because we knew it would run later - if we had bid earlier, then he could have ended it earlier. We knew it would run later because he ended it later last year. If he guaranteed that the auction would end sometime between 1 and 2 AM I would bet everyone who bid last night would have their bids in by then.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>JoAnn--I believe that you are wrong. Last year's auction ended just like this years. It was a time chosen by Rob. I would be willing to bet that there were still some bids coming both years but with an almost 2000 lot auction it would flip to the next day if you held to the 15 minute rule.<br />If you look at when the bids came in on say the Baltimore News Ruth you would find that they came in very late. This was not someone allocating money between lots; this was someone hoping the high bidder had gone to sleep and that they could get the card at a lower price. If the auction ended like Mastro's I think the results would be virtually the same and people could have gotten some sleep. I bid on the Fleetwood Walker cabinet. I was high most of the night, went to bed at 3:15 while leaving an up to bid, and was topped. If the auction had been a contest of who would have paid the most and not who could have stayed up later I would have bid more and possibly won the lot but, since I really had no idea what the value was, I left an up to and went to bed. In this case at least, in a Mastro format the lot would have sold for more.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />I'm missing what you're saying. It doesn't make sense at all to say that the reason people didn't bid earlier is because they knew it would end later.<br /><br />The only reason not to bid on something earlier is because you want to make decisions on where to move money around over time as the interplay between your lots unfolds throughout the night. <br /><br />There is no point in waiting to bid later just for the purpose of waiting to bid later. Then it's like trying to snipe, and REA not being ebay you can't snipe. If Rob or Doug "guaranteed" that an auction would end between 1 and 2 you would have what amounts to sniping.<br /><br />The simplest example is this: if you only want to bid on one lot, and you have an absolute max in mind for that lot, then it makes no sense not to bid on that lot earlier at your max. Not bidding early because you know it's ending later serves no purpose. The only purpose served by waiting is if you are bidding on more than one lot and you don't want to commit too early before you see how they play out over time.<br /><br />So there is no point or purpose to waiting, and honestly I don't believe that most people wait to bid just because they know it's staying open. <br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Hi Jay,<br /><br />I understand what you are saying about being outlasted - I'm on EDT myself and have never stayed up for one of these. <br /><br />But while the bidding war on the Ruth may not have been juggling funds (and you make a good argument on that one), it also seems strange to me that it was a matter of someone wanting to go to sleep too.<br /><br />If you are so bound and determined to have that Ruth that you are going to spend $500K, and also increase by $200K in the last few hours, it's hard for me to see that someone lost the card because they finally gave up and went to bed?<br /><br />You're right. That is a strange one. But I bet the person that won it won because the underbidder decided not to go higher, not because the underbidder decided to go to bed. And I hope no one on a card that high decided that trying to wait someone out was going to work.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>"The simplest example is this: if you only want to bid on one lot, and you have an absolute max in mind for that lot, then it makes no sense not to bid on that lot earlier at your max. Not bidding early because you know it's ending later serves no purpose. The only purpose served by waiting is if you are bidding on more than one lot and you don't want to commit too early before you see how they play out over time."<br /><br />That's not correct - assume the following in your simple example:<br />1) The max you want to bid on a lot would be $3250. <br />2) The lot is currently at $2750 being won by someone else.<br /><br />The purpose served by waiting there is if someone else is willing to bid $3000, you can then win it at $3250; otherwise, if you don't wait and bid now at $3000, there may be someone else out there who, like you, is also willing to bid up to $3250 and you lose.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I second Anthony's suggestions.<br /><br />And I agree with Matt/Jay about REA strategy. If there is a lot you must have, better off waiting until 2 am or so to make your move because there's half a chance that the poor bastard you're bidding against is unconscious by that time. It may be that there are only two bidders remaining for a lot at a certain price and one just simply is outlasted physically. No need to have the showdown at 11 pm for the final price to be set when you can do it a few hours later, closer to ending time.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I still don't see it. <br /><br />If you are willing to bid $3250 and only bid $3000 then you lose because you didn't put in your max bid. And if you are willing to bid $3250 and someone else is willing to bid $3250, then someone's going to have to go higher.<br /><br />And if you are saying that you have to be online to beat the other $3250 guy to the punch, then that's still not a matter of Rob deciding when to end the auction. It would happen no matter what time it ended.<br /><br />And in the overall scheme of things, the amount of money that is out there because people are moving it around is probably large compared to the amount that's out there because someone doesn't want to get caught on the wrong increment, so leaving the auction open to allow that money to settle is probably justified.<br /><br />Although I do agree that it would be a pain to wait up just for that and wish the auctioneers would allow an autobid to be made at any increment, not just the one that's two away from current. The first person there to claim that amount as a bid should be able to. <br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Anthony- I have 182 lots. Coincidence? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />It was easy to see why the Ruth got so many bids. I just went to the lot and clicked on "bid history." There were two people left at the end. One set a very high ceiling bid, and the second kept bidding until he passed it. You can determine this by the time the bids came in (two bids posted at the exact same second).<br /><br />Joann- my auction closes the last night at 6:00 PM and then the 15 minute rule begins. From roughly 6:00-8:00 the bids come in at a modest pace. From 8:00-1:00 they come in close to non-stop. In the last 30-40 minutes they start to trickle, with lots occasionally running nearly the full allotted time before another bid comes in. I would guess that happens in all auctions.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>"And if you are willing to bid $3250 and someone else is willing to bid $3250, then someone's going to have to go higher."<br />No - if we're both maxed at $3250 then whoever gets there first wins.<br />To word it otherwise, in the scenario I outlined, you want to give as much time as possible for someone else to bid $3000 so you can get the $3250 slot, but if no one does, you put in the $3000 bid as late as possible to avoid being outbid and losing the lot. <br />It really doesn't take until 4 AM for everyone to do what they need; it's just that we're all waiting around knowing there's more time since there was more time last year.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>JoAnn--It's simple. It is 11:00PM and the lot you want is at $100,000 and someone else is the high bidder. You are willing to go to $200,000. Do you fight it out now or wait until 3AM to do it? If you fight it out now then the person you are bidding against is surely up and if he/she is willing to bid over $200,000 you will lose the lot. If you wait until 3AM the high bidder, who maybe didn't leave an up to bid, thinks that because the auction will close soon, and he/she has been the high bidder for many hours/days, that the lot is his/hers. He just goes to bed/konks out at the computer/whatever. In that case you have some chance of winning the lot even though an active opponent would have outbid you. The probability of this happening may be small, but it is not zero. Therefore, this strategy makes more sense than bidding early.<br />If you are active on multiple lots you can't leave up to bids on everything for the reasons pointed out before. This bidding system is flawed(and by the way it is not just Rob--it is also Barry, Goodwin, and several other auctions) and the Mastro/Heritage system is better. I think there is no other way to look at it.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Matt is right in my mind. Knowing that the auction probably would go until 3 am, what incentive do I have to fight out the final war for the card at 11 pm when I know King is wide awake? Why not wait until he is safely tucked in his bed, dreaming of Royal Flushes, as I swoop in and get that last bid in with him helpless to respond?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm flawed? I'll have to go check that out. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Jay - I honestly don't think that at those money levels a lot is left to bed time and sleeping habits. I'm in the middle because while I don't think that bed time and sleeping has a lot to do with a high dollar card, you are right in that maybe there is a very small chance that it did. In that case, I think that for high dollar cards there shouldn't be even a small chance that where you live affects your ability to win. I think that you are right that a per-lot ending would resolve it, but that wasn't the premise of this thread. The premise of this thread was that there was no clock at all (when in fact there was), and that there should have been an earlier arbitrary cut-off time (which would lead to sniping). <br /><br />And for having a strategy of waiting becuase you know that it's going to be open, then that's just staying up as a strategy. You don't know it's going to be open - it can close at any time so there is definitely a big game of chicken going on here (which I think is actually kind of cool, although difficult). <br /><br />So I guess the question becomes what it should be if it's not this? Does anyone really want some assurance that it will end at a fixed time? Even if the late nights aren't the best, would the alternative be better? I really think that anything that would create snipe-like opportunities would be shouted down in two seconds.<br /><br />And if the answer is per-lot closings, that's a different debate. Leon has a thread going on that one. If an auction is going to do a close-at-once system (which for other reasons I still think is best), then how can guaranteeing some kind of clock or early close of the entire auction benefit either bidders or sellers?<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I'll support Joann on this. And obviously the jury will always be split, with a majority of East Coast people likely preferring Mastro's method. <br /><br />I am surprised to see all of the complaining though... it has been this way since the onset, and the REA method is still employed by most others in the Industry. Auction houses such as Lelands, Grey Flannel, Vintage Authentics, AMI, Clean Sweep (Steve Verkman), Barry, Memory Lane, Historic Auctions, Bricol, etc, are all still doing it the same. Since it seems that at least 80% are still doing it this way, what's with the sudden outrage this time around? <br /><br />Since Mastro is obviously sticking with their "Individual Lot Closing" format, I do think it's great that they lessened the 2 hour waiting period down to one. It will be really interesting to see how Barry's descending extended bidding periods work... to me, this seems like the best solution of all.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm looking forward to Barry's closing rules as well. We're all very lucky that the man likes to be asleep early!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'll make a concession and stay up a little later on the 15th.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Mark--Just because something has been done one way for a while does not mean that there is not a way to improve the process. If more people believed as you do we would be riding around in a horse and buggy and I would be sending you a letter rather than posting on this chat board. <br />Another possible reason why more auction houses do not employ individual lot closings may have to do with cost. The software I believe is quite expensive; Mastro has spend a lot of money on their systems (someone please correct me if I am off base on this).<br />I still believe that all bidding will get done in whatever time frame is available. If Rob told everyone that the auction would close at 2AM, all the bidding would have been done by then. The longer the auction stays open, the more games will be played.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>As a bidder, I prefer Individual Lot Closing since I am usually only interested in 2 or 3 lots and I can figure out what I am ultimately going to do before they all close. Then I can go to bed. (Although even with this method the bidding on each item can drag out for multiple periods.) If I had a large number of lots to juggle, and a budget that could only accommodate a certain number of them, I might feel differently.<br /><br />As a consignor, I would probably prefer Simultaneous Lot Closing, but I would make the decision which auction house to consign to based on many factors other than the closing method they use. And I think it is unclear how much difference it really makes in terms of prices realized. Many have said they got locked out of items that they returned to when they gave up on something else, only to find them already closed, while others have reported falling asleep before putting their best bids in during a long auction that remained open as a whole. Who knows how that all really shakes out.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think Eric is ultimately right. As a bidder, I like Mastro's closing policy and as a consignor I'd like REA -- though I'm convinced that the 330 am closing cost them some bids because many people just give up. In fairness to REA, there were a few lots that I was high on at 2 am that after I was topped and I thought the price was too high, I ended up spending that same money (and more) on a different lot. So, at least in that instance, REA's method was best for the consignor. Maybe Rob starts extended bidding at 4 pm EST again next year and switches to a 10 minute clock at 11 pm, then a 5 minute clock at midnight? This way he gets the proliferation of bids late at night (just a bit earlier) and gets rabid bidders like me in bed before 4 am. This solution may be the best of both worlds.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Jeff - I think that would be great for REA if they actually had a clock that had anything to do with the bid activity. The "clock" last night was just a script set to bump every 15 minutes until Rob decided he'd had enough; the resetting had nothing to do with when a bid was placed. If they actually implemented a clock that reset every time a bid was placed, then the decreasing clock you suggest might give a significant improvement.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Agreed.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Hey Jeff - now that I think about it, wasn't the idea for decreasing the time increments as the auction goes later originally yours? If I were better at using the search function I'd try to look it up, but I think it was. I think you had it even going down to 2 minutes if need be. I still think that's the best compromise. Everyone gets a chance at everything they need, and it doesn't go on forever.<br /><br />Matt - The clock that was in place last night is the same type that has been used in pretty much all major auctions for the past several years. At time X:00 the clock runs for 15 minutes. If any bid is placed in that 15 minutes then at X:15 it resets for another 15. It doesn't reset at X:07 just because a bid was made at X:07 - that would be a mess with 1700 lots. They all have to go on the same 15 minute punch, and they all pretty much always have. It seems like I remember one that had an odd-time reset but I can' remember which. Lipset maybe? Anyways, the 15 minute rule has always worked that way. No conspiracy going on there to do it different.<br /><br />Here was the only thing different: In the past you never knew when the auction was going to end, as a practical matter because there was no way to know if someone had just bid in the last 15 minutes on some obscure thing. All of a sudden you'd get the closed message, meaning no one bid in the last 15 minute reset. No different this time. All Rob did this time was reserve the right to look at the bidding and say "You know what? There were two bids placed for a total increase of $500 in the last 15 minutes, both on small lots with little bidding activity. The 15 minutes before that there was only one bid. I think it's time to wrap it up rather than allow ticky-tack little bids to keep this thing open until Tuesday." <br /><br />I think that's not only fair, but wise. Just use some good judgment. But it made absolutely zero difference to anyone's ability to know when it was going to end. Unless in past auctions someone was screaming through all 1700 lots during that 15 minutes and tracking which had had an increase. Nah. That's just a ficticious debating point, not reality.<br /><br />Now we have to figure out how to get Dave F's idea implemented to let people know which lots are active toward the end. At least it would make it more interesting.<br /><br />And Mark - thanks! lol<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Same... that's what I referred to as "Barry's new method" being the best potential solution.<br /><br />JAY - Have you seen gas prices lately? Maybe the horse and buggy wouldn't be all that bad! <br /><br />Seriously, I was not intimating that it should be done that way simply because it always has in the past. I was just wondering why the big outcry this time around, when this format seems to be "old hat". Of course I agree that continual evaluation is necessary, and to adapt/evolve is a good thing. I just personally prefer REA's format.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>joann - Several of us have weighed in that we wait for various strategic purposes because we know the auction won't end until 3 or 4 AM. If we knew the auction would end by 2 AM instead of by 4 AM, we would just bid earlier.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yes, Joann, I did suggest that but only the true giant of the auction industry -- Barry Sloate -- took heed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>Joann -- the problem is, if <i>you</i> are the one who placed at least one bid in the current period, then you are expecting the clock to be re-set once again (since you know at least one bid was placed, i.e. yours). So if Rob decides to close at the end of the period you bid in, you are penalized. On the other hand, if you didn't place any bids in the current period, and are just waiting for the thing to end, then yes, it shouldn't matter to you if Rob closed at the end of the period because there were no bids by anyone (the traditional rule), or if there were just a few that he judged to be ticky-tack or whatever.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Eric - No doubt about that. Whoever gets stuck with those last few bids is definitely out of luck. I guess it's one of those things where you weigh the good of the thousands of bidders and millions of dollars against more minor interests, even if the interest to that actual bidder is far from minor.<br /><br />Jeff - I thought so. It will be neat to see how it works out. I'd bet $50 that within 3 years (6 cycles for Mastro and 3 for REA) one of the two has adopted the practice. It just makes too much sense. My money is on REA.<br /><br />Matt - you're missing the point. I know others said they waited longer. I know they had reasons for doing it. I know that most would prefer not to have to. I get it. The point is that there was a clock. The point is that, with regard to the ability to know when a 1700-lot auction with a 15-minute rule would end, there was no difference in this one than most others. The point is that if there were a known, hard and earlier ending time there would be sniping and that is completely unworkable. <br /><br />I also know that while I will continue to participate in this debate - because it is a hobby issue and I have been part of similar debates in the past - I will no longer go back and forth with you in particular on it. Why? Because one thing I do know is that getting into a "have the last word" thing with you means that I will be the one that is up until 4 a.m.! So go ahead. Since you will pick at it until you have the last word anyways might as well have it now at a reasonable hour.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A giant indeed.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>joann - it has nothing to do with having the last word - my original point was that this auction ended between 3 and 4 AM because we all knew from years past that's when it would end. You disagreed, but many weighed in that if we expected it to end earlier (say at 2), we would have bid sooner. So if you concede the point, then by all means, stop debating it, but if you still contend that the auction ending at 4 AM had nothing to do with us expecting to based on previous years then it's worthwhile to hear why.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I still think the flaw is people wait until 2:00-3:00 to bid because nothing compels them to do so earlier. While I don't have a precise solution in mind, there needs to be a system that forces (or perhaps rewards) bidders for not waiting so long.<br /><br />Perhaps offer every bidder who places all his bids by midnight a free Domino's Pizza with two free toppings of his or her choice.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Barry - exactly. <br /><br />I contend that the reason people wait until then and don't bid earlier is because there is an unwritten guarantee (based on previous year's closing) that the auction won't end until sometime between 3 and 4 AM. If there would be a way to switch that "contract" to be between 1 and 2 AM then I'm certain all the action would take place sooner and we'd all get more sleep.

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Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>Joann - well said. Plus I suppose if Rob judges your bid to be ticky-tack, i.e. artificially auction-prolonging, it probably is.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Eric/Joann: here's the problem with Rob determining anything in the auction: it renders the auction bidding and closing subjective and not objective. Consideirng the constant reminder of REA's "Honest Auto-Bid" system -- a computer program that makes it impossible for Rob to know who is bidding what -- shouldn't the rest of his auction be transparent and objective?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The fact is bidding early is a disincentive, because it wins very little and just raises the ante. The only reason to bid early is if your lot is approaching its maximum and you only have one increment left. But if you have no limit and insist on winning the lot, it makes pefect sense to start your bidding around 3:00 AM.<br /><br />And that is not good for anybody.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Oh for God's sakes Matt. Now I have had enough.<br /><br />First for the revisionist history. Your original point was not that the auction ended late because you knew from years past when it would end. You didn't get to that one until well into the thread. Your original point was that there was no clock (wrong). Your original point was that the 15 minute increments had nothing to do with bidding because they started every 15 minutes (again wrong). Your original point was that the auction was a pain b/c you didn't know when it would end (probably right, but no different than industry practice in the past few years).<br /><br />And your point that the auction ended at 4 just because you knew from past years that they ended late is absurd. 4 a.m. is not some magic time, not some known time, not even some common time. These kinds of auctions end all over the map - from midnight in some cases to well into the following day in others. 4 a.m. was the time of this one. If there had been healthy bidding until 6 it would have ended at 6. If there had been no healthy bidding after 2 it would have ended at 2. They go late because they go late. Rob pulled the plug when it made sense to, not because of some sense of expectation on the part of some collectors. So now you're saying that we know they end at 4, and they know we know they end at 4, and we know they know we know they end at 4, so now they will end at 4. I don't even have anything to say to that little cause-and-effect fiasco. You can do the soft shoe on which is cause and which is effect, but I'm not getting into that crap.<br /><br />And it is about having the last word with you - debate debate debate every little thing. I'm not playing. So I guess now would be a really good time to call me all kinds of bad names if you feel so inclined, because I'm not putting any more time into responding to your little word games to try to recharacterize your positions.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>joann - I seem to have angered you and I'm sorry if that is the case; it certainly wasn't my intention.<br /><br />There was no revisionist history - here is the first post of mine in this thread that you addressed a response to me:<br /><br />"The only reason Rob needs to end it at 4 AM to allow everyone to get their bids in, is because he ended it around the same time last year, so everyone was just waiting until early morning to bid. If he ended last year at 11 PM EST people would get their bids in before then this year and it would end around the same time again. It's not as if someone won the lottery between 11 PM and 4 AM."<br /><br />to which you responded:<br />"Matt, That's just simply not true. He didn't end it at 4:00 this year to maintain a pattern from ending it at 4:00 last year."<br /><br />If I misunderstood what you were discussing with me then I apologize - I thought that is what I was discussing with you.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I think (as I have said and others have said) -<br />if REA would have put an actual clock that winds down and gets reset when a bid comes in - it would have been a much more tolerable evening.<br /><br />End all lots at the same time.... that is fine if it is in the best interest of your consignors.<br /><br />But have a real clock that ticks down - and then resets.<br /><br /><br />Forgive me if it was suggested earlier in this thread... but it didn't seem like a 'real' 15 minute rule.<br /><br />There were '15 minute' slots of time. If someone bid within that slot - it went on for another '15' minute slot after that slot was done.<br /><br />So... if someone bid at 10:01 - instead of the 15 minute clock resetting then (ending at 10:16)..... <br />the 10:00 - 10:15 time slot was bid within so the 10:15 - 10:30 was allowed.<br /><br />I am not suggesting that this actually how REA does it (I wouldn't know) - but I am saying the feedback they show on their website made it very much seem like that was the system.<br /><br />If it is indeed the system.... then the bid above would have extended the auction for 29 minutes - not 15 - dragging things on longer.<br /><br />A countdown ticker might put more pressure on people to throw a bid in if it ticks down too low for comfort (again moving things along)<br /><br />I also like reducing it to a 10 minute rule / or even a 5 minute rule after a certain time.<br /><br /><br />edit: spelling<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />That is something that is a little disquieting about Rob deciding when to end it, even if he uses great judgment. I'm just not sure what else would work though.<br /><br />I will admit that I was very persuaded by the email he sent out this weekend. It said that some bidders will use bids on minor, cheap lots to hold an auction open, just to extend it so they can try to outlast someone on a major lot. If you think about it, under the current rules someone could literally hold the thing open indefinintely - weeks and weeks and weeks - just to try to get someone else to give up and commit money elsewhere. <br /><br />So who sits in judgment of what is a manipulative bid designed to help win a 6-digit lot, and what is a legit bid by someone that works third shift and came home and bid on the one lot he wanted the very first second he could - even if that was 4 in the morning.<br /><br />It would take a Solomon to try to figure it out, and maybe that's the best argument about the strict close-at-once format yet - that it can be so indefinite as to make some subjective intervention necessary.<br /><br />Smarter people than me will figure it out, I'm sure. I trust that Rob used good judgment in deciding when to end it, but in the end there is really no way to know who got cut off. Or how much visibility into the bids Rob had available to him to make the decision.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Marty Kohler</b><p>A gal who is bright, articulate and likes baseball cards.... wow.... I hope I have a chance to meet you in Chicago.....<br><br>GO YARD

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Joann, I agree with you totally. I have no doubt that Rob is a) the person best situated to determine when to close his auction; b) and that he exercised good judgement. My only beef is that he needs to figure out a way to end the auction earlier than 345 am and he needs to do it without a 12 hour period of extended bidding. Here's one way: more frequent auctions with less lots in them.<br /><br />PS: how lucky is Rob to have all of us telling him how to run his business? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm sure he's delighted!

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />I will email you privately later. We need to take this off the board. If there is common ground to be found I will do everything I can to find it. I don't like being at odds with anyone, and I am definitely at odds with you on this and other issues.<br /><br />It may not be today yet. I have spent too much time on the board as it is. I have some cooking to do along with ironing and homework yet tonight. But I will email.<br /><br />I'm at jmkline@juno.com.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"I have some cooking to do along with ironing and homework yet tonight."<br /><br />That sentence sent a shiver up my spine -- x3!!!

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>joann - that would be fine - I have looked for your email addy in the past to do just that, but up until your last few posts here, you just had a username posted with no email. Glad to see the change and I look forward to our discussion.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Does that mean you dont' do any of the three anymore Jeff? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Well after waiting all day for the pain to wear off on not winning what I wanted all I can say is Rob my friend the clock situation needs a little re-vamp but I would like to take this time and THANKYOU for having just a great auction! As always great items and great bidding! I wont even get into the debate on whats right and wrong with auctions but as auctions go REA sets a great standard that cant be denied. Well my bank account is still full but I do believe someone elses out there is a little lighter today!! A true pleasure and 364 more days and counting to the next one!!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dave -- "anymore?" Can't say that I ever did cooking or ironing and the thought of homework still makes me queasy.<br /><br />As for the REA auction, I do have to say that I'm a but bummed it's over. What a shame it's only once a year. I suspect if it was broken up it wouldn't be as incredible as it is. I can't believe we have to wait a whole year for the next one. (PS-I'll be traveling to Japan for the next one and all you suckers will be up half the night while I'll be just coming in from a round of golf at the end of the 12 hour bidding period. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Lichtman golfs?<br /><br />I would have guessed the possibility of cooking and ironing before the golf.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>The auctions like this definately give you a fever. There is just something different when the auction houses host an auction as opposed to ebay. Maybe the competition just seems a little more feirce or maybe its just knowing there were others last night sitting around yawning and dozing off that made me laugh a little at 2am...lol. <br /><br />Just a couple of weeks til Barry's end right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rarely. If I can't dominate I don't have much interest.

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Posted By: <b>SC</b><p>Having a decreasing time per lot as the night wears on? I.e.<br /><br />Extended bidding is after 6PM.<br /><br />Lots are open until 7PM. If no bids, the lot closes. Each bid extended the lot by 30 minutes.<br /><br />After 9PM, the clock resets to 15 minutes.<br /><br />After 11PM, 10 minutes.<br /><br />After Midnight, 5 minutes.<br /><br />Hopefully as the night goes on, the # of interested lots a bidder wants will be reduced. <br /><br />My experience, as both a seller & buyer, is a good auction forces action & decision. <br /><br />You really have to look at the auction company's responsibilities:<br /><br />To Sellers/Consignors - Maximize the net proceeds of the consignment, through proper marketing and format. On the service end, provide feedback and timely remittance of auction proceeds.<br /><br />To Buyers/Bidders - Accurately present the material, to allow maximum confidence in bidding. Create an ease of process, from bidding, to payment, to shipment/delivery.<br /><br />EVERYTHING the auction does is to maximize revenue - the end bidding process should do the same.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well everyone- here is a first:<br /><br />At 7:17 this morning I posted on this thread that my cards from the auction already arrived. Of course it was a small joke.<br /><br />At 9:30 this evening, a courier rang my bell with my auction winnings. I think Rob read the post and was determined to make it happen. So thanks to Rob Lifson for the fastest delivery in hobby history!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I've got to hand it to Rob -- he notices the little things and makes every effort to please his customer base. Sort of like Mastro -- if this was Bizarro World and up was down and black was white. No arrogance, no condescension from Rob, just a max effort.

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Posted By: <b>Al Simeone</b><p>Barry,<br />You now must set the bar for Barry Sloate Auctions and send Rob coffee and danish and it must be there hot and first thing in the morning at his office. Send a message to Rob that you are a GIANT in the industry and two can play that game!! LOL

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Oh, Barry, I expect the same care and feeding.<br /><br />In fact, you can send over my two cards I will be winning tomorrow.

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Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Wow! Rob Lifson is certainly first class.

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Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br /><br />Three points<br /><br /><br />At 1;45 AM we were high bidders on 4 lots that had not moved in more than 3 hours<br /><br />We awoke at 5:45 AM to learn that we only won one of the lots.<br /><br />Rob is a world class in every way. His first obligation is to the consignor. Nobody comes<br />close on rare card prices- and Rob runs a whistle clean auction.<br /><br />If we were consigning we would want to obtain the last nickel. The REA system accomplishes<br />that objective.<br /><br />In all wars, sleep is a luxury...and that includes the war for ultra rare cards. So be prepared to battle<br />to the end or be prepared to surrender.<br /><br />Finally, in this thread two collectors noted smarter people than I. The proper phrase is <br />smarter people than I ( or in our case smarter people than we)<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"The proper phrase is smarter people than I ( or in our case smarter people than we)"<br /><br />Now, this might be the funniest thing I've read on 54 in the last month. Nice one, Bruce. Self-deprecating humor goes a long way with me.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- I don't think Rob is a coffee and danish kind of guy. However, I will send him an avocado and bean sprout sandwich for his lunch.<br /><br />And Bruce actually used the pronoun "I" in his post. Bruce, I am proud of you. You crashed through a barrier! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Barry--Yes, but it was "We will gouge the eye out of anyone who gets between us and the card we want."

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We'll take it one baby step at a time.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>We slept in shifts.

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Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>"We slept in shifts"---That is the funniest line I've heard in a long time.