|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Dan, Alan--not going to do it--if that makes you think the less of me fine--I have addressed this issue hundreds of times. Not one major collector or even mid-sized collector has done this and I am not doing it.<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />It will eventually get into the thousands!? as almost every time I post it will be on this as I stay off others. I just wish others would not come on here to ridicule or attack me--thats the purpose of having my own thread.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Okay. Thanks for answering Jim. I know you've answered the question a million times so I'll ask it again in about 9 months.<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> <-----------Winking smiley
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Alan Elefson</b><p>Jim-<br /> I understand (and am doing my best to respect) your feelings on the matter, but please also try and do the same for those of us who disagree with you.<br />Alan Elefson<br />aelefson@hotmail.com<br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This thread is going to be controversial no matter how you slice it. But I agree we could do without the personal attacks.<br /><br />I do think the grading companies have to take the onus of the responsibility if a card is misgraded, and not the auction house. There's nothing wrong with a little good will on the part of the seller, but the issue isn't always black and white.<br /><br />How many times have the grading companies disagreed, where one company deems a card trimmed and the other one gives it a numerical grade? It might become really difficult to objectively determine who got it right and who was wrong.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>CoreyRShanus</b><p>"To address question 1. This statement has no connection with the liability of the auction house, imo. It's more a testament to the fact that mistakes have been made....not by the auction houses but by the authenticator(s). Regardless of this statment I still say if they aren't qualified then they shouldn't be in business and ARE SOLELY liable for their actions."<br /><br />It has everything to do with the liability of the auction house, which is predicated on them reasonably being expected to know grading companies were not qualified in the early years, thus creating a current duty to either disclose, inspect or resubmit. <br /><br />"To address question 2. Almost every auction house has a disclaimer that you agree to abide by when signing up to bid. If you don't agree with it then you don't bid. If you sign then you are waiving your right for liability where the venue is concerned. Maybe I am off base here but that would be my thought process."<br /><br />Respectfully, I do think you're off base here. By that reasoning, Coaches Corner has no liability for all the bogus autographs they've sold. I have a big problem with that one. Disclaimers are all well and good but IMO the law still would require an auction house to either (1) disclose info it had that it reasonably should be expected to know its good faith bidders do not have, which info is material to the decision whether and how high to bid, or (2) take reasonable actions to protect its good faith bidders, in the absence of which those bidders would be incurring risks they reasonably did not expect to incur.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Anthony N.</b><p>I would like to point out that before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards, and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so. Whether you like his methods or not, Jim has brought about some change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board.<br /> Since he's agreed not to hijack other threads perhaps the same courtesy could be extended to him on this one.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>We are going to politely agree to disagree on these matters. You never answered my question pertaining to signing the terms and conditions with the auction houses either. As a lawyer you have to agree that if you sign the terms and conditions, and are legally allowed to sign, then you are taking responsibility for what it says and agree to it?.......take care
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Coaches Corner unquestionably knows they are selling bad material. The controversy surrounding their business certainly hasn't escaped them.<br /><br />When I sell a graded card I assume it was done right. Not all are, but I have to go by that premise if visually a card looks okay. But to say it's understood that the grading companies got it wrong rather often in the early days doesn't get them off the hook; and it doesn't obligate an auction house to question all early certs either.<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Hi Jim,<br />I don't mean to hijack your thread but I have a comment related to a statement above.<br /><br />It's one thing to have a policy that is acceptable to both buyer and seller. When the seller is intentionally misleading his customers, I don't think they can hide behind it.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>CoreyRShanus</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />First, what is in the terms and conditions that specifically absolves the auction house of disclosing material info about a lot that its bidders would not otherwise be expected to know? <br /><br />Second, EVEN IF there is such language, that does not mean it would necessarily be enforceable. The law will not enforce certain contract language that is deemed to be against public policy, and I would strenuously argue that any language that gives an auction house free reign to commit fraud would be unenforceable.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Lets forget about Coaches Corner for a minute as they have too many issues to be taken seriously at this point.<br /><br />I was going to let this go but your last statement has me going. Who says an auction company has free reign to commit fraud? By selling a graded card from a professional grading company they are committing fraud? That's crazy.. With everything we know I still don't think auction houses have a legal obligation to question professionally graded cards....Sorry, I can't buy that one... No way do I think you would win this in court either.....even though you do write extremely well. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>...take care
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>CoreyRShanus</b><p>"When I sell a graded card I assume it was done right."<br /><br />Point is maybe you shouldn't make that assumption, at least with certain issues. What would be the big deal of adding a disclosure to the effect: "a statistically significant number of graded cards from certain issues have in fact been altered and all bidders buy such cards at their own risk"? The only reason an auction house would not want to make such a disclosure is because it might lower the price the card sells for, thereby indicating that the auction house was in fact concerned it was imparting new material info to its bidders.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>CoreyRShanus</b><p>"Lets forget about Coaches Corner for a minute as they have too many issues to be taken seriously at this point."<br /><br />Sorry, but can't. When you're making a point you have to look at the implications of where that might take you, and IMO the implications of your point on this issue could absolve CC.<br /><br />"I was going to let this go but your last statement has me going. Who says an auction company has free reign to commit fraud? By selling a graded card from a professional grading company they are committing fraud? That's crazy."<br /><br />Where do I say selling a graded card from a professional grading company is fraud? What I'm saying is that selling such a card from certain issues WITHOUT either disclosing the risk of alteration, inspecting it to confirm it was not altered, or resubmitting it only as regards to the alteration issue could be found to be a fraudulent action. Disclosure is SO easy to make (see my post to Barry). WHY not make it other than out of concern you will realize less for your consignor, at which point you've just given support to the fraudulent allegation.<br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>How would an auction house define a statistically significant number? That could be enough to scare anybody away.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Once I pay off Leon for some cards.....Iam going getting my new piano and WILL spend worthy time to my life. COntinuos bashing is silly. I hope some here find some new purposes in life because cards are not always fun while they should be.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>"Point is maybe you shouldn't make that assumption, at least with certain issues.<br /><br />What would be the big deal of adding a disclosure to the effect: "a statistically significant number of graded cards from certain issues have in fact been altered and all bidders buy such cards at their own risk"? The only reason an auction house would not want to make such a disclosure is because it might lower the price the card sells for, thereby indicating that the auction house was in fact concerned it was imparting new material info to its bidders."<br /><br /><br />Or the other reason is that is an absurd disclosure to make. Where are these statistics you are referring to? Have PSA, SGC and GAI published the number of cards they have bought back? All you have is a grading company issuing an opinion on the condition of a card and applying whatever their criteria and assuming the associated liability, deciding to place a numerical grade on the card. Judging an encapsulated card as altered is also nothing more than an opinion, and in many cases one that is even more subject to error. There are statistics for how many cards are graded but none for those bought back or for those where an unspecified number of people have opined about the originality and authenticity of a card once encapsulated. <br /><br />If the day comes where dealers have to start to give an outside opinion (and guarantee) on the opinion asserted by a grading company then there is really no point in having cards graded. Wouldn't this be like having a publicly traded company have an audit by a CPA firm and then have them hire another CPA firm to have them audit the audit process? Where do you stop? A bit silly, really.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 3:38 PM <br />Leon,<br /><br />Thank you--glad we stumbled on a situation that works for all.<br /><br />This is why I disagree with you.<br /><br />For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund.<br /><br />I would maintain that an auction house would likely do that under these circumstances and that it is a good decision to do it.<br /><br />But I may be wrong?"<br /><br />Truth be said, if you were my client, I would write you the check. It would be that simple. Likey, I would be very dissapointed that you feel comfortable in transfering the burden of responsibility from the guilty party to an innocent bystander. As a big client, I probably would not even make you aware of this feeling, as every customer is managed uniquely and I would take this into account. <br /><br />Since you are not my client, I can tell you I think it is complete BS that you would go after the auction company soley and leave the problem with the grader to them. If you truly believe this, you are absolutely full of *hit when you talk about caring about cleaning up the hobby from a utilitarian perspective. <br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>"Before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so........Jim has brought about change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board".<br /><br />Thank you Anthony--I think you are one of the few to acknowledge that yet confronted with 1)a guy who admitted he takes creases out of cards and 2)a guy who got it out of him that he did this is totally iognored by the likes of Wonka, BoxingCardGuy, Dave from Alpharetta, Corey and others who ignore this and say I should (not anyone else)put my net worth at risk by having my collection regraded. Corey at least makes coherent arguments--the others act like I am the bad guy and are just outright crappy to me. Then you have others who used to be my friends like Al that just fawns over Doug Allen and acts offended that I am actually questioning him on his business and Marc who I used to think was a smart guy but is proving not to be.<br /><br />I say BS--I should get the congratulations and appreciation of people for bringing this to light. If others tried as hard to push dealers/auction houses to disclose their policies and push them to be a more honest, transparent company instead of mocking those of us that are trying to effect change the hobby would be a better place.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Mike, <br /><br /><<I think it is complete BS that you would go after the auction company soley and leave the problem with the grader to them.>><br /><br />Don't lose sight of the fact that in this case, Jim "suspects" that the auction house had a little something to do with the alterations. That's what makes the lines a little blurry.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>"Thank you Anthony--I think you are one of the few to acknowledge that yet confronted with 1)a guy who admitted he takes creases out of cards and 2)a guy who got it out of him that he did this is totally iognored by the likes of Wonka, BoxingCardGuy, Dave from Alpharetta, Corey and others who ignore this and say I should (not anyone else)put my net worth at risk by having my collection regraded. Corey at least makes coherent arguments--the others act like I am the bad guy and are just outright crappy to me."<br /><br /><br /><br />Well Jim, <br />I knew you wouldn't make it too long before you pulled the ever so familiar "others are crappy to me". It continues to be amazing how you can dish it out and keep hitting Doug in the fanny with a bbgun, but let the flood waters come down if someone acts "crappy to you".<br /><br />Really Jim, same ol, same ol<br /><br />Dave
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place.<br /><br />Jim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I think Jim is right about that last post there... if the seller agrees that the card isn't what it was supposed to be, then the seller get the card back. The seller's recourse is with the person from whom he got the card.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>some of your missive above are logical and reasonable.<br />However,often you give praise to bad people in the hobby and condemn some of the good ones.You have not been in this hobby long enough to know what they have done apparently and how some of them continue to do these things just with more sophisticated methods than,oh let's say 23 years ago.<br />I assure you that some of the folks you trust do things you constantly protest which is why I have ridiculed you about having your collection re-evaluated. After considering what I think is your attempt to do damage control from here on out I agree with you now and would not have your collection (if mine) reslabed either.I however would never deny the probability you have restored and trimmed cards in your collection! Anyway,I apologize Jim for giving it to you about the reslabing of your cards and will no longer dispute you on that issue. Please except my apology~<br />On another note you state Wonka ridicules,tries to embarrass ET and I just want to tell you he is pretty good at it!<br />Go look at some of his photoshop work! Come on Jim,you got to admit that some of those photos are pretty funny as well.<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Sorry Dan, Alan--not going to do it--if that makes you think the less of me fine--I have addressed this issue hundreds of times. Not one major collector or even mid-sized collector has done this and I am not doing it."<br /><br />For cleaning up the hobby - one needs a leader, not a follower.<br /><br />If you actually did this Jim, your number of naysayers would go to zero, guaranteed!
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>a syndicated re-run.<br /><br />Now, if you ever want to debate card altering and the associated politics, and listen to countless people demand that Jim Crandell submit his entire collection for re-grading, we all have one place to come and chat.<br /><br />After I'm done here, I'm going to try and find some sports coverage that is free of PED discussions and legal analysts.<br /><br />Once that ends in frustration, I'm going to go sit in the corner and pound salt.<br /><br />After that, because I'm sure it will make my wrist sore, I'm going to come back and see if everyone is still yelling at the rain.<br /><br />By then, it will be bedtime.<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Edited, because I'm overcome with grief.<br /><br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>you play piano?<br />classical?<br /><br />I thought you were a bowler?<br />if your fingers swell in the ball it's got to make playing the piano a bit tougher!<br /><br /><br />BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 9:02 PM <br />Mike,<br /><br />I don't get your point. XYZ dealer sells me what he and independent grader agree is a bad card. I ask dealer for refund and he agrees. Are you saying it is now my responsibility to go back to the original grading company? I disagree--I think it is the responsibility of the dealer who sold me the bad card in the first place.<br /><br />Jim"<br /><br />If I were the dealer, I would immediately refund your money. My service to you would be that you would not have to deal with anyone else but me. In the background, I would send the card in for a grade bump and then consign for free (assuming a >$1K card) to Mastro :>)<br /><br />If I was not your dealer and was speaking to you man to man, I would say, Jim, how in the hell can you speak of cleaning up the hobby for all when you do not help to go after the root cause (grading compnay). In fact, you help facility negligent practices by the grading companies by forcing the onus onto venue holders (dealers, auction houses). <br /><br />I hope that explains my point better. <br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Re: Jim Crandell's personal thread February 27 2008, 6:12 PM <br /><br />I would like to point out that before Jim's thread over a year ago it was not common knowledge that Mastro did work on cards, and thanks to his efforts Doug said they no longer do so. Whether you like his methods or not, Jim has brought about some change and certainly does bring some thought provoking topics to the board.<br />Since he's agreed not to hijack other threads perhaps the same courtesy could be extended to him on this one."<br /><br />I again agree 100% with Anthony. <br /> <br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Solomon</b><p>"For sake of argument lets say I did $250K of business with XYZ Auction House and I bought a card for $10K that is a PSA 8. I then take it in to show Dave Forman--he looks at it and says this is beyond the shadow of a doubt a trimmed card. The president of the auction house comes to SGC listens to Dave and agrees. So that I will keep doing business in the future with him he writes me a check for $10K. Then he goes to PSA and attempts to get a refund."<br /><br />That's not a matter of doing what's right - that's a matter of doing what's smart. Anyone in business does this for it's best customers. Anyone who thinks the "little guy" is treated the same as the "major player" in any industry is delusional. I'm buying 200 Toyotas this year. I just got them to warranty an $1100 repair that was borderline. Think it's a coincidence?<br /><br />The pre-grading era auctions were based solely on the reputation of the individual. Mr Mint (as a convenient example) was the one making the claim the card was MINT, the finest example he'd ever seen, and by implication unaltered. It was Rosen's reputation, no one else. So it would be natural to look to Rosen for a refund. But now, if we saw a 53 Bowman Yogi Berra in Mastro's auction, described as the finest example they've ever seen, and NOT graded - would anyone pay 95% of PSA 9 money? Everyone is going to be screaming the obvious question. So Mastro (et al) offering a PSA 9, you're buying it because PSA says it's a 9, not because of the pseudo-intellectual writeup in the catalog on the American experience of living in 1953. I would then think you should look to PSA for restitution if it's not right. You can use the 2x4 approach of "I spend enough money to not deal with this"...but the price is going to be spending a lot of money in one place. And if PSA refuses to buy it back - 99% of the time it's going to be in the next auction.<br /><br /><br />As far as the Coach's Corner comparison...it would be the equivalent of Mastro hiding behind using PRO as their grader of choice. How can you even sell the stuff with a straight face? I never could. I don't see how you can equate the good faith basis an auctioneer would put into selling a legitamitely graded/authenticated item, by a major company (PSA, SGC, PSA/DNA, JSA, etc.), vs. pushing crap graded by a fly by night operation.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>he never cared about collecting that's for sure.<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>Fifty years from now, collectors will be laughing at us. <br /><br />Collectors in the distant future will look for the most visually appealing cards out there. They will have decided that there's been enough nearly undetectible tampering with cards that it's not worth determining what is virgin material anymore and what isn't. Additionally, they'll realize that the "doctored" cards actually look NICER. <br /><br />No longer will they foolishly leave dirt or pencil marks on the cards. Bleach will be a requirement. Removing a crease here, touching up there, a little bit of cleaning and, hey, they've got a beautiful card. <br /><br />Collectors will openly seek out the best touch-up artists. <br /><br />In general, the card collectors will finally catch up to the art world and realize that eye appeal is what really matters!<br /><br />Rob M.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rob, I couldn't agree more. I collect antique posters and it is an open fact that damage in the posters are restored. Some of these posters are rarer than any baseball card - and even more expensive -- and no one bats an eye at restoration. Why? Because that's just the way it is. As it will be with baseball cards someday, probably.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>1880nonsports</b><p>that's REALLY a super muse......... If it's about the CARD - it's all about the look - if it's about the investment - it's all about someone ELSE'S perceptions....
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>My piano songs are the mello ones .The toughest song I do is by STyx ;" the best of times". DO a little Journey ,AIr Supply, MAnilow, etc.... <br /><br />I find soft songs to ease lifes daily gigs. These soft piano tunes when the notes hit just right, gives good vibes. AFter 9 yrs going back at it. Cds arent enough anymore.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Dan, I love those bands/artists you mentioned. I love 80's music period.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Rob/Jeff-<br /><br />very interesting thought...very forward thinking, and as i read your posts, i can actually envision the future you project, and kind of believe you guys are right.<br /><br />i certainly do not endorse altering cards, but in the future, professional restoration (like in the vintage poster & art world, as you've mentioned), might be commonplace...it really is all about the cards, and the aesthetic. <br /><br />the IMPORTANT thing, might simply be the fact that the card (underneath any touch-ups, etc) is AUTHENTIC and NOT counterfiet. <br /><br />it is a little difficult to get my head around this concept, but you guys just might be right...<br /><br />interesting.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I do not believe that alteration/restoration will be acceptable in baseball cards anywhere within the next 50 years. I doubt the practice of restoration was ever frowned upon in poster collecting or artwork. The practice of cleaning and restoring coins has been frowned upon for eons in the coin collecting world and since the advent of grading it has been frowned upon in the baseball card hobby...I don't remember it even being an issue before PSA came along. You think those guys who pay $5,000 for common 1962 Topps cards in Gem Mint condition are ever going to accept restoration to a baseball card??? When they have millions invested in their collections and some guy can come along and pretty up the same 1962 Topps common for a few bucks and attain the same Gem Mint grade? Nosiree.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>are really hot right now!<br />Too bad Ole Dorskin's "group"<br />whenst not see the opportunity there!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Dan- let me clarify...<br /><br />when i was discussing restoration above (which i'm not saying i fully endorse, but was merely intrigued by Rob & Jeff's comments), i was not insinuating that said cards would be put into gem mint holders...<br /><br />they should still be slabbed "authentic"...or left raw (like Jeff's posters). my intepretation was that these cards would simply be appreciated & respected more and valued higher in the future.<br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Looks like some of those who have admitted to altering for profit and/or accused of selling doctored cards, are planning to clean up the hobby. <br /><br />No need to fear PCCE is here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pcce2008.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.pcce2008.com/</a><br /><br /><i>"In addition to facilitating intimate interaction between collector and collectible source, the PCCE will bring collectible leaders together to enhance the perception of the industry. Most experts agree that the collectibles industry, like most industries, has some negative aspects and a few less than reputable players. But because of the industry's explosive growth, the indiscretions of the few have had a tendency to overshadow the many positive developments overall. The PCCE will function as a quasi think tank hosted by an elite group of collectible leaders on the forefront of the industry's evolution who are actively committed to promoting its new professionalism, integrity and business acumen."</i><br /><br /><br />Initially I thought this was a joke. Now...I think it's a joke. <br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, I agree with your concept. And I agree that no one would ever want restoration to be the norm in card collecting. However, I believe that with the prevalance of alteration in the hobby already, collectors at some point will not have a choice on this issue.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />Welcome to my thread--have not heard from you in a while.<br /><br />Integrity? Do you see who some of the dealers are? The indiscretions of a few? <br /><br />I hope they have a panel that is open to the public and the question is asked about what they have done in card alteration and the questioner should tell them that they are under oath.<br /><br />Is this comedy?<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />Wow--that is a very very interesting post on Full Count. If people just told publicly what they knew to be true that would really shake things up.<br /><br />E-Mail me at home Kevin if you would or I will e-mail you tonight.<br /><br />You're the best.<br /><br />Jim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Tim Caravella</b><p>As a fairly new collector in the vintage market, I can honestly say I am being turned off really quickly. Is the vintage market in as bad shape as this forum indicates? I love the historical side of both the game and our culture in general, but if there are no honest dealers/grading houses (and of course I know there are some out there somewhere) then why would I consider pumping big dollars into cards that probably have been altered at some point and submitted/passed through the major graders? Damn, this all seems so nasty!!!! <br /><br />Tim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tim,<br /><br />In my opinion, you should stay away from ungraded carfds unless you are quite sure of their history and be very careful buying graded prewar cards--especially low-to-mid grade ones.<br /><br />Jim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim<br /><br />Now why would you tell someone to stay away from low and midgrade cards? You are pitiful. Are you really that thick-headed Jim?<br /><br />Dave
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>In the pre-war arena I've always had an affinity for the midgrade (Vg to Ex), it just seemed like the logical selection for 80+ year old specimens. While I have the means to go after high grade, I've always stuck to the midgrade...there's something not natural about the super high grades, while there are some that exist, the true examples are rare.<br /><br />I guess my instinct has protected me to some extent to this ugly side of the hobby.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- telling people to stay away from low to midgrade cards, and ignoring the rampant problems with high grade cards, is irresponsible advice. If you want to continue to believe that only lower grade cards are altered, and the PSA 8's are for the most part fine, you are in a majority of one.<br /><br />It upsets you that more people aren't taking up your cause, but statements like that alienate everybody, even me. I just don't understand it. You turn a blind eye on anything you want, as long as it serves your belief that what you collect is untainted.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>It seems somewhat counterintuitive to me to regard the cards in the condition one would most likely expect to find 80+ year old cards, which also are the cards with arguably the least to gain from alteration, to be the ones with the highest risk of being altered. That's not to say there are not altered vg-ex cards out there. But for my nickel at least I would be far more cautious purchasing an "8" than a "4". I can also tell you from the vantage of one who has been attending card shows for more than 40 years that I continue to be amazed at the number of high grade (e.g., 8s) cards from certain issues (e.g., T206) I see. In the 60's and 70's when I would attend shows (which in those days before auctions/the internet were the main venue for buying/selling/trading cards) I have no recollection whatsoever of seeing such great numbers of Nr-Mt/Mt vintage cards as I see today. On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Nothing is untainted--I don't believe I ever said that. I simply gave advice to a novice collector who knows little about vintage cards--I think its smart for a novice collector to first focus on graded cards and then within that I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>And Tim, since you asked a question- I think it is safe to buy lower and mid grade cards that have been graded, but it's always prudent to look at a scan or view them in person before buying. There is much to be enjoyed in the vintage card market so don't be turned off by it.<br /><br />And welcome to the board.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>And I would steer him away from higher grade cards where the risk is significantly greater. Just my two cents from 25 years in the hobby.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />I respect your historical perspective and its likely some(who knows how many) were trimmed. Some likely came from finds along the way I would think; some part of old-time collections that came on to the market as a result of the tremendous appreciation in psa 8 prewar cards. Didn't the Mastro Auction recently have a lot of high grade cards(Cracker Jacks?) that<br />were part of an old-timer's collection?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />We each have 25 years in the hobby but come to a different conclusion--thats okay.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Sorry to keep quoting you but you really do have a knack for hitting the nail on the head...<br /><br />"On another thread someone made the observation that it is very unusual to find oversized T206s today. One guess where they all went."<br /><br />The answer is they are in Crandall's collection residing in 8 holders.....too bad....<br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Funny Leon...and in just mine right--not Louchios or Ireland or Spence--and you say this never having seen my cards?
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Louchios or Ireland or Spence aren't coming up with the stupid idea that only low grade cards are altered. I only see you saying such dribble.<br /><br /><br />Dave
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>This thread will surpass the STAT/Morales train OT trainwreck in posts, barring Leon retains his composure and doesn't drop the hammer on Jim as a disruptive influence. You read it here first.<br /><br />OK, a few observations.<br /><br />1. I have to disagree with Jim returning graded cards to auction houses years after the fact. The major grading companies have a guarantee in place, and their sole purpose is to stand behind their service in order that trade might occur within the marketplace between buyer and seller at an accepted level thus alleviating the concerns that both parties might have. That's what they get paid for. If any auction house did in fact refund, contrary to their terms and conditions of sale and years after the fact, then I would question the integrity of that house. I realize that we don't live in a perfect world, and the playing field should be level for all buyers who comprehend the rules of the game, but the word would get out sooner or later regarding something of this nature happening to a high roller, and the cumulative effect of the smaller buyers realizing that they've been played for suckers, would far offset anything the auction house had to gain by kissing the ass of the high bucks player. The high rollers come and go like the tides, but the average Joe Collector who plugs away at his passion will always be there. He is the TRUE backbone of the hobby and never overlook that fact.<br /><br />2. Watch out for low to mid-grade vintage? Oh puhleeze! That is rock upon which the vintage hobby is built upon. They are the most liquid, with a much larger following than any of the same issues in high grade. Give me a raw VG through EX raw, or slabbed 1-6 of any issue, and I know that the card will sell, with competitive bids for whatever the market is at that particular moment. The high grade darlings are sweat-time because all it takes is one of the three guys that are collecting it in that particular high grade to either miss the auction, be in the midst of a cash crunch, or already have the card, and the realized price tanks. High grade issues become "fashionable", and once a couple of the high rollers move on to other issues, the overall high end market for that particular set weakens considerably but the lower grade stuff just keeps on trucking along. Stability is a good thing. These cards are your best bet for being untouched by the doctors and barbers, though they are the raw material in many cases for the high grade darlings. Like these NM-MT altereds started out in the same grade? Huh?<br /><br />3. ........and while I'm on a roll. The constant paranoia over the number of altered cards in holders. Jesus Christ, it's getting ridiculous. Sure, there a number in major company holders. It's only natural that a few slip through and have slipped through over the years. BUT, the overwhelming majority of cards residing in holders are as described. The grade is correct and the card has not been altered. I'd be more concerned with some of the vintage residing in older holders that wouldn't make the grade today. Some of those T206 8's from the late 90's wouldn't make a 7 by today's tougher grading standards. The same could be said of many other issues.<br /><br /><br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Very well said.....I not only agree with you 100% but everything you said is common sense to sensible folks....
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hey Paul,<br /><br />Good to hear from you--thanks for posting!<br /><br />Respect your points of view even though different from mine.<br /><br />Hope you are right on the amount of altered cards in holders.<br /><br />Lets have a drink next time I am in Houston.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Jim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I too agree with Paul with regard to the liquidity of low to mid grade cards. I sell them every week on ebay and don't have to look too hard to find bidders.<br /><br />But all the high grade cards that sell for crazy prices on ebay are almost always due to two or more guys building registry sets at the same time. Once one or both are done, prices tank. I've seen it happen many times. It's a very thin market.<br /><br />My favorite grades are 3 to 6, even have good success with the 2's. No question that is the backbone of the hobby. For every guy building a registry set, there are a hundred buying mid-grade cards and having a great time doing it.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"I would steer him to the higher grade cards where risk of cards having been "worked on" is less."<br /><br /><br />One of the most self-serving statements I've read and completely counter-intuitive.<br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JK,<br /><br />The reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Jim<br /><br />I have to wonder what color the sky is in your world.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>The reason I say this is talking to dealers who tell me that a lot of this goes on under the radar screen. Nobody suspects a psa 4 could be altered but without the alterations it could be a psa 3 or psa 2.<br /><br /><br /><br />Jim did it occur to you that maybe they claim this because they are the ones selling to YOU higher end cards?<br /><br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />edited: Please do not put more than your name in the "your name" box. Thanks.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>green
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Not same ones.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>the person working diligently on the 3 to get it to a 4 reaps what reward?........maybe $50 on a common T206? What about the person taking a 6 or 7 to an 8 or 9. What do they reap? $500, $750, $1000 or way more? Hmm..........seems like a LOGICAL choice as to what space you'd practice your trickery....not in the 3's but in the 6's and 7's. <br /><br />I know you will fight that point to the death Jim and you say that there are all these people that support your theory on low grade altering but, quite frankly, I've not seen many (if ANY) of them come on here and support that theory. Might be easier to do a little something to a 3 to get it to a 4 than a 6 or 7 to an 8 but if you're a crook, you're going to maximize your return. That's why FEW (if any) $1's and $5's are counterfeited..........<br /><br />And as to all the high grade T206's out there, I've heard of MANY times where vintage scrapbooks were soaked in bathtubs, pulling out really high grade cards. Unfortuately, I can't find any of those anymore........and, we can argue ad naseum about whether it's right to free the cards from scrapbooks. That's not the point for this thread....maybe Crandall, part 2.<br /><br /><br /><br />edited to put $ sign in front of 1's and 5's
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Appreciate your point of view.<br /><br />One factor to consider is that is more difficult to get higher end trims through grading companies whereas as one expert pointed out to me there are a number of things you can do to the lower grade cards to improve the grade.<br /><br />I won't fight my point to the death--only repeating what I have heard from what I consider to be knowledgeable people. Maybe I'm wrong?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>in some cases, more things you can do to a 3 to get a 4 than the other. BUT.....again......the reward isn't exponentially greater like it is on the high end stuff. I'm sure that, within every segment of cards, there are cards that have been doctored that have made it through. It's just the law of averages. We can debate the point all we want but we'll never REALLY know. <br /><br />
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />I will consult the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations and see what he says.<br /><br />Jim
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I hope your grand wizard has been doing this longer than 3 years.....If not he might not be so grand.....You might want to consult someone that has been doing it longer than my newest pair of underwear is old......<br /><br /><br />edited for clarification
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Who is the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations?
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin Saucier.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />If your point is that lower grade cards (3s, 4s) have had pencil marks removed or a corner layed down, I agree. I also really couldnt care less if I had a card that once had a pencil mark removed. Frankly, I would not be overly concerned if I had a card that at one time had a wrinkle spooned out (as long as it never came back - which is a subject of debate). These things dont concern me as much because I (1) in the case of erasing, dont consider it to be an alteration; or (2) in the case of wrinkle removal, am prepared to accept and live with that fact. These types of "alterations" do not fundamentally change the card in my mind. <br /><br />Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, etc - these are all things that absolutely change the card and, IMO, are much more likely to be found in higher grades.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JK,<br /><br />Respect your point of view. I asked the expert and if he says I am wrong I stand corrected. Also will ask Dave Forman and Mike Baker this weekend to see what they say on this.
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You know you are batting your head against a brick wall, right? Common sense has never worked with Jim.....The ole adage "common sense isn't so common" never rang more true....Though I do firmly believe that about 99.8% of our members do have good common sense.....
|
Jim Crandell's personal thread
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim admitted he was wrong. That's what happens when you post simultaneously.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:09 PM. |