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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Are all old enough to remmeber this. And if I'm forgetting some of our New York area posters; I apologize.<br /><br />But there was a time when being a Republican did not automatically mean you were right of center. We had Senator Clifford Case in NJ and New York had Govenor Nelson Rockefeller and Senator Jacob Javitz. <br /><br />But one of the great shames of our recent political system is that the more extreme and devoted groups have learned that you can control things in primaries and many times the more reasonable candidate (either Republican or Democrat) loses because the group with the special interest does a great job of getting the vote out.<br /><br />It's a shame that many times the centrist candidate never gets a real chance to campaign. And it's also a shame that people with tons of money have such an advantage nowadays in politics. <br /><br />Frankly, I suspect part of the fundraising success of Ron Paul is that his supporters tap into a populist background and not the wealth of one man.<br /><br />Regards<br />Rich<br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Jeff, <br /><br />Didn't you know there are no liberals in foxholes. Or is it atheists? <br /><br /> Now they are saying Bhutto died by hitting her head and not from a bullet or shrapnel. Does anyone believe this?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>A few other thoughts ..<br /><br />1) First, BRAVO to this board for this thread. It has, with the exception of a few snide remarks (that actually stick out like sore thumbs this time), been civil and productive. I have strong views that I probably won't be talked off of. However, it is still very instructive for me to see well-thought out arguments for the opposite side, especially from people that I respect and even admire. I have saved this thread because it does have such a good debate.<br /><br />2) Yes there has been revisionist history. We went in to Iraq for WMD. When none were found the spin machine seamlessly said we went in for terrorism, and no one blinked. Then it changed to spreading democracy, and no one noticed. I don't know if it reminded me more of "1984" or "Star Wars" (these aren't the droids you're looking for), but it was wierd the way people just accepted and repeated whatever was said.<br /><br />3) The civil rights thing is scary. We have a whole generation of people coming into young adulthood that have no memory of the Soviet Union and how it operated. All of the internal spying, wiretapping, neighbors turning in neighbors, etc, was done in the name of Homeland Security. To uncover internal enemies of the state. You know, like the Al Qaeda among us. To them, a totalitarian society has to be some banana republic or tinhorn dictatorship. I don't think they really see that those things can happen in a superpower. So they don't really recognize the parallels between what's going on with our civil liberties now and how the Soviets ended up once they started down the same path of being obsessed with internal enemies. (And yes, China is a totalitarian superpower. But it's domestic policies are oddly underplayed here, and most people don't really have a good idea of that structure.)<br /><br />4) And finally, one that I think is kind of funny. Did anyone catch a week or so ago when Bill Clinton said that, if Hillary were elected, he and his friend Bush 41 planned to go on a world tour to let other countries know that the US is "back in business for commerce and cooperation" or something like that? Well of course Bush 41 immediately said he'd never planned any such thing. Clinton clearly spoke wrongly to say it - no doubt he stuck his foot in it - but I don't think he just completely fabricated it either. I have this mental image of the two of them (who are fairly close) sitting on some train to some humanitarian effort they were on, playing cards and drinking too much scotch, and basically hatching this plan of doing the World Apology Tour as soon as Bush 43 is out of office. Bush 41 is a decent and smart man, and he has quietly but very obviously distanced himself from the arrogant, bullying and graceless administration of his son. Yeah, Clinton completely screwed up by mentioning it on the record, but my money is on the two of them actually having had some conversation about it - even if not entirely serious. The visual of the cards and the scotch really cracked me up.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />Oh, and Joe D - I still like you too. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But I do doubt that Al Qaeda is at all preoccupied in Afghanistan or Iraq. It sounds like they have enough space in Afg to do what they want or need to. Also, the people that did 9/11 were very educated and even wealthy. They stayed in small pockets in and planned the attacks, with a lot of technological and financial resources, plus college and graduate educations. Somehow I just don't think these are the same guys we see on TV hiding behind brick piles in Baghdad or making IED's in the outlying areas.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>What I find interesting is that there can be someone who I find very little in common with when it comes to cards that I am completely in sync with when it comes to their political views and vice versa.<br /><br />Take Ted Z--he and I do not see eye to eye on graded vs. ungraded cards but I am completely in snyc with his political views. And whether CNN is the Commie News Network or the Clinton News Network there is no doubt that it is a left-leaning network as are ABC, NBC and CBS and 95% of the news media.<br /><br />On the other side, I think Joann is won of the smartest people on the board when it comes to her views on cards and for that matter I think Jeff and Barry are smart too and I generally agree with what they say....but I agree with little they say politically...although Jeff and Joe D are right on the money that ones perspective can change if you live and work in NYC.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I can cure the ills of our political system with just one sentence.<br /><br />That's right, I said it.<br /><br /><br />All I need is one amendment to the Constitution (if that where it belongs? I guess so... read on....)<br /><br /><br />Here it is:<br />"A political party may not hold more than 30% of congress."<br /><br /><br />Thats it. So simple. No longer a two-party system....<br />I just forced there to be at least four parties in congress, none ever having a majority. <br />Imagine that - they would have to work together to get things done. Compromise, debate, talk with one another --- a working system.<br /><br />Sure in the beginning the two major parties will split off sister parties and will have allegiances. But - I believe in the greed and egos that go with politics... and for sure each party will diverge to become independent of each other.<br /><br /><br />Imagine four or five or more candidates for President. A congress that can't rely on favoritism by the President and can't rely on a 'majority'. This country would have no other choice but to work together to get things done.<br /><br /><br />So there you have it:<br />"A political party may not hold more than 30% of congress."<br /><br />Thats all that needs to be done.<br /><br />Its not such a new idea. I believe George Washington warned of the perils of the two-party system.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"I lived in the 3rd World as a Foreign Service Officer for over 20 years from the late seventies to the mid nineties. Anyone who believes that widespread mistrust and dislike for the United States started with the Bush administration hasn't a clue what they're talking about and is living in Lalaland."<br /><br /><br />I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, next time Muslim extremists come to America and kill 3000 of us we should really just shut our mouths, turn the other cheek and throw veils on our wives -- that will get them to like us more.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and 95% of the media is left leaning (your words), doesn't that tell you that that may be what America wants? Maybe we are all growing weary of the ultra-conservative claptrap we've been spoonfed for the last seven years. <br /><br />I know I'm sick of it. Maybe our day has finally come!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- we continue to post at the same minute. We do this all the time! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"Thank you President Bush, and thank you to our fine men and women in the armed services - for moving the battlezone to the middle east and for fighting this battle.<br /><br /><br /><br />So you can call it an unintended benefit (if you are a bush basher) -<br />I personally don't care what it is called....<br />the reality is - the warzone moved.... and no doubt Al Qaeda would have hit America again if they were not so preoccupied with Iraq.<br /><br />For that reason alone - this war was worthwhile."<br /><br /><br /><br />THis is just about the most morally bankrupt statement made yet in this thread. Basically you are saying that there is nothing wrong with killing, death and destruction as long as it is those Arabs in the Middle East who suffer instead of us. WHat makes their lives less valuable than yours?<br />JimB<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>you are officially invited to join Ted and I for drinks!<br /><br />but Barry must wait outside <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So I'll have to get my drink to go...no sweat!

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Posted By: <b>Tom Russo</b><p>I was going to stay out of this one but have to respond to the comment that Bush is our worst president ever. In fact, he is arguably not even the worst president in my lifetime. We had a run of Johnson, Nixon, Ford and Carter. Remember? All very competitive in the crappy leadership department. "Professor" Robert Wuhl (HBO)also refers back to John Tyler, Franklin Pierce (a Bush ancestor), Millard Fillmore, Zachary Taylor, Warren G. Harding and others in support of the proposition that bad leaders are as American as apple pie. Given the current field of candidates, several of whom agree with our president that the jury is still out on the theory of evolution, we may be in for more of the same. This country has prospered not because of the strength of our leadership but in spite of the mediocrity of our leaders.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I think Joe was not referring to innocents; I think he was referring to the Muslim fanatics that are trying to kill us. I know you might find this hard to believe, but rumor has it that not all Muslims are peace-loving pacifists and not all Americans are blood thirsty killers.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>edit: thank you Jeff for that clarification. Yes - I most definitely am not talking about innocents. I am talking about the terrorists. <br /><br /><br />"THis is just about the most morally bankrupt statement made yet in this thread. Basically you are saying that there is nothing wrong with killing, death and destruction as long as it is those Arabs in the Middle East who suffer instead of us. WHat makes their lives less valuable than yours?"<br /><br />cool - I broke a record <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> 'most morally bankrupt'<br /><br />First let me say to the others in N54 land - that I very much like Jim B and consider him a friend - so none of our bicker (his words above or mine below) will sway that.<br /><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />It seems you rephrased my words - for your own extremes or tangents... and suggest they are something that came from my mouth. "Basically you are saying..." isn't this better phrased as "Are you suggesting...." "Would you then say....." As a question as opposed to an assumption of fact? I find it morally reprehensible when somebody rephrases something I say and claims it to be 'basically what I am saying' <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />What I am saying - if I should rephrase it differently myself....<br />with the benefit of hindsight - I believe agression worked out to be EXACTLY the right thing for our nation. We were attacked and more would have come. But.... like a bug-light on a dark porch, the al qaeda bugs are attracted to Iraq right now instead of heading to America to bite us in the behind.<br /><br />We can sit back and look to defend ourselves... but in this case, the best defense is a good offense.<br /><br />Personally - I am not saying any particular strategy within Iraq or Afghanistan was correct - but I think aggression was necessary. <br /><br />That is the key point: aggression was necessary.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I don't know where you're getting your information, but it seems to run counter to many perceptions on this board. Well, at least when the United States has a Republican president, no doubt.<br /><br />Rob

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Tom- your list is rather lengthy. How about we say Bush is in good company with that motley crowd. Fair enough?

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Posted By: <b>GHG!</b><p>Most of us are, in fact, partisan in our political beliefs. Recent elections suggest such partisanship to be divided almost evenly. While message board discussion of personal political leanings may be entertaining, it is unlikely to change many opinions.<br /><br />Criticism of our present administration is certainly fair game, but not at the risk of our nation's best interest and security. (And, comparatively speaking, those among us who remember the Clinton or Carter administrations as the 'good old days' must have greater powers of recall than have I.)<br /><br />Wouldn't we best be served by trying to support those chosen to make informed decisions...regardless of party affiliation?<br /><br />GHG!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- even though we disgaree politically, you were one of the few to spell Al Qaeda right. So all is forgiven. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>JimB,<br /><br />Where were you posted? Somehow I get the feeling you probably did a few West African tours. There's third world and then there's WA (among other places). <br /><br />Ok, we're going from Bhutto's assasination into US politics. I guess it might be difficult to seperate the two, but things are getting a bit heated. I think this is the reason why political OT is limited in the VBC.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>This is the marker for the <font size=+5>100th</font> post of this thread.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I would hardly consider CNN liberal. They were as complicit in the war as any other network. Middle of the road, now seems liberal.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>THis is just about the most morally bankrupt statement made yet in this thread. Basically you are saying that there is nothing wrong with killing, death and destruction as long as it is those Arabs in the Middle East who suffer instead of us. WHat makes their lives less valuable than yours?<br />------------------------<br /><br />It is the responsibility of the US government to look out for its citizens safety and security above/before other's safety and security, especially at a time of war.<br /><br />The bombing of Japan was done to avert US casaulties estimated up to 1 million men for a successful invasion. I cannot remember the number of casualties but Japanese deaths in the two bombings - I think was in the neighborhood of 700K. To the US government their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women. <br /><br />The fact that many Arab governments don't really represent (nor care about) their people is a sad fact of life - but it shouldn't change the fact that the US government should represent US interests, ideals, and goals. My personal opinion is that we generally "fight nice" and sometimes too nice. That obviously doesn't include our misguided approach to interrogation of some prisoners.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Anonymous- it was a lot less than 700K. I think a fraction of that number. Not trying to trivialize it, but I think your number is off.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>There were about 200,000 deaths from the two atomic bombs dropped in Japan.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I agree completely with your 'fight nice' analogy.....<br /><br />I'd hate to see the results of WWI,WWII,Korea if we'd had.....<br /><br />CNN,NBC,ABC,CBS,MSNBC,CNBC,FOX and the other litany of 24 hour stations that we had along with imbedded reporters and the incredible microwave society that we all live in now.<br /><br />We should all detest war and the results but trying to fight a war with all the cameras rolling has got to be difficult. I can't believe there weren't MUCH worse things than Abu Graib and others from last 5-8 years during Vietnam, Korea, WWI and WWII.....<br /><br />Still doesn't make them right though........<br /><br />Sadly......no good answers to these questions..........just hope for something positive to end it all........<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Decided to not be so lazy and looked it up....and there were an estimated 220,000 deaths between the two bombings - apologize for my poor memory.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And how many American lives were saved?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Joe D - you guys can go in and have a beer, but those of use waiting outside will gather on the patio to sip old scotch and solve the world's problems. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />GHG: The value of the thread is not about changing opinion. I think many if not most people have closely-held views on this and probably aren't going to change.<br /><br />The value is that people are presenting passionate ideas based on thought and reason. It gives us the chance to see how someone can hold an opinion we don't agree with and still be decent and smart and patriotic. I think it's a nice change from what has become the national "dialog" of basically standing on opposite ends of the field making mean faces at each other.<br /><br />GHG again: I don't think it is at all advised, ever, to blindly support an administration. It doesn't matter who or what party is in office. This country's tradition of skepticism has, for the most part, kept our government in check. I would argue that much of the damage caused by this administration has happened specifically <i>because</i> it had (and still has in some places) such complete and unconditional support of the American people.<br /><br />T Russo: Good point. I guess a president is deemed "bad" based on many areas of incompetence that may not always be directly comparable. Trashing the economy is different than being flat out paranoid and dishonest, which is then different from simply neglecting important issues.<br /><br />I still think Bush II will be considered "bad" from a broad basis of budget irresponsibility, getting us into a poorly conceived war and then being unwilling to make the tough and unpopular choices necessary to support it, and the intentional attacks on the Constitution - by ignoring the rights and duties of the various branches of government, and by claiming virtually unlimited "war powers" to unnecessarily strip citizens of important rights.<br /><br />If I had it my way, his legacy would be that last item and history would hold him out as the president that tried to overturn our tradition of personal privacy and citizen rights. <br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>And how many American lives were saved?<br />-----------<br /><br />We'll never truly know but I believe that I've read various military analysis that stated that the US would have had up to 1MM casualties from an invastion of the Japanese mainlands. That doesn't include estimated Japanese casualties - obviously from the other number I included my memory is somewhat faulty as its been several years since I last studied WWII in depth.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I agree with LetsGoBucs although I would point out that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki not only saved American lives but also Chinese and Indochinese lives and any lives anywhere there were still Japanese soldiers. They also saved Soviet lives as the they were fighting the Japanese in the north when the bombs were dropped. Even Japanese lives were saved considering how many would have been killed during an invasion of the mainland. The bombings also cut the Soviet Union out of any claim on Japan. Imagine a post-war Japan carved up in the manner of Germany or even a Soviet/US war over influence in Japan. More death and more destruction.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Howard<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Edited because I left out a key word.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>...their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women. <br /><br />____________<br /><br />This probably appeals to those who also call themselves God fearing Christians. From a tactical perspective of the U.S., of course this was necessary move. But implicit in such action is a belief that a human life within one man made border is worth more than another. This notion is root of this thread, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and almost every historic atrocity. <br><br>"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>of your nation's individual's worth over another is completely rooted in Christianity....I think most, if not all, nations out there would want to protect their own people first and foremost before others. You have the same things happening in non-Christian Africa and from other regions of the world from all periods in history........convenient to blame the Christians as the US is a Christian country with a professed Christian leader.......<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I enjoyed the dialog.<br /><br />If you think less of me because of my viewpoints... well, I am sorry to hear that.<br />If you think better of me - well, then you obviously have very good taste.<br /><br /><br />Ah heck... liberals / conservatives..... everyone is welcome to belly up to the bar with me!<br />This is one heck of a family we have here.<br /><br /><br />opposing viewpoints and expressing them in a civil way... its a very cool thing.

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Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Amazingly, they still cannot confirm a cause of death for Bhutto. Shrapnel, bullet, blunt force trauma-take your pick. You can also take your pick on who killed her, Pakistani gov't, Al Quaida or some other fringe group.<br /><br />Part of Bin Laden's original plan was to destabilize Pakistan-so far it's working. What a mess.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>"I think most, if not all, nations out there would want to protect their own people first and foremost before others." <br />_____________<br /><br />Maybe that's the problem: here, there, everywhere.<br /><br />(added quotes)<br /><br />"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: <b>Dave S</b><p>"I would like my Niece and Nephews to grow up in a world that trusts the United States. A world where people from other nations think of us as something special. That we do things the right way. Right now, because of Bush and Cheney, THAT is not the way it is."<br /><br />Count me among those that avoid political discussion. I lost a 22 year-old niece in WTC on 9-11. Her Marine fiance was killed when a car bomb blew-up in Iraq 2 years later. I really don't think either of them would much care what the rest of the world thinks. Only wish they had the opportunity to read this thread and re-act...<br /><br />Joe D., for what it's worth, I applaud your thinking...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Because the "mainstream media" has been so biased to the left( a recent survey showed 95% or more voted democrat last election) it has spawned Talk Radio which is largely conservative and the Fox News Network(which destroys CNN in evening ratings.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>...their lives are worth less than a US serviceman's life. While the deaths of those 700K people was gruesome, it was better than the deaths of several hundred thousand US military men and women. <br /><br />____________<br /><br />This probably appeals to those who also call themselves God fearing Christians. From a tactical perspective of the U.S., of course this was necessary move. But implicit in such action is a belief that a human life within one man made border is worth more than another. This notion is root of this thread, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, and almost every historic atrocity. <br /><br />---------------------<br /><br />Well I believe that my statement didn't include any reference to God nor Christians. And you took part of a sentence to quote - the entire sentence was "To the US government their lives are worth less......".<br /><br />I made no assertion as to whose lives are worth more. My statement is that the US government's primary responsibility in the time of war is to look out for the safety/security of the people of the United States first and foremost. Unfortunately in a time of war this includes killing those that are aligned against the United States. <br /><br />And I would actually say that the simple thirst for power and conquest is the root of most of the atrocities throughout history. Of the recent atrocities in the 20th century most of them consisted of killings within one's own borders - ie Stalin's purges; Cambodia, China, Rwanda, and even Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews (although he did it across borders, he started in Germany).

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, too bad you don't listen to WABC 770 am in the morning. You'd have heard some pretty interesting talk radio the past two days. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Jeff, I didn't get a chance to listen a couple of days ago. How did it go with Al Sharpton?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Dave S - thank you. I appreciate that.<br /><br /><br /><br />Jeff L - are you back on the radio? I thought that gig ran its course. Man - I gotta start listening in the mornings!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I'm aware that Bill O'Reilly of Fox Noise has a bigger audience than Countdown with Keith Olbermann- but my man Keith is catching up (I am certain you are a big Olbermann fan <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Yeah--O'Reilly only has about 4X Keith's audience now. Not many people I like less than Keith.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the margin is smaller than that. I don't have the stats but I think it is closer to 3:2. But most smart people are in the minority anyway!

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Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.<br />JimB"<br /><br />I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating. <br /><br />Leon - Admit it, you're thinking about selling banner ads to political candidates and political action committees? Aren't you. <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Its almost exactly 4:1.<br /><br />Last night in was 12/20<br /><br />The Factor--2,614,000<br />Countdown--669,000<br /><br />It has tightened slightly over past year but its still a landslide.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>Reality shows usually top the ratings, so the fact that O'Reilly has a higher viewer base means what? When the masses go a certain way, it's prudent to investigate, and often go the other direction.<br><br>"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Howard, it was fun -- half the fun was the behind the scenes stuff, getting to know him, etc. Definitely an interesting few days.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- how were you able to find last night's numbers? I'm impressed.<br /><br />Okay, you win. I'll get you next time! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Oh, last night in was 12/20. I thought that was a ratio of viewers. Got it. Dec 20.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>My biggest problem with the current administration is that they are spending so wrecklessly you'd think they were liberals. The war should have never moved to Iraq, despite what the blind faithful will say it was obvious to millions in this country and to the rest of the world. The protests existed and were well attended, but very few senators had the courage to vote against it despite obvious support from millions:<br /><br />* Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii) <br />* Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico) <br />* Barbara Boxer (D-California) <br />* Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia) <br />* Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island) <br />* Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota) <br />* Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey) <br />* Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota) <br />* Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) <br />* Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin) <br />* Bob Graham (D-Florida) <br />* Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii) <br />* Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont) <br />* Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) <br />* Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont) <br />* Carl Levin (D-Michigan) <br />* Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland) <br />* Patty Murray (D-Washington) <br />* Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island) <br />* Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland) <br />* Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan) <br />* The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota) <br />* Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) <br /><br /><br />I think we need Hilary to win this election for two reasons. First she and Bill will repair our image in Europe and potentially get our allies to actually be allies. Secondly it will force our republicans to refocus what they stand for. Hopefully then after four years an actual conservative will emerge and defeat Hilary preventing any of her "ideas" from effecting us long term.<br /><br />We are in a tough spot right now. The dems are just as responsible for this mess as "W", they simply had to present someone competent enough to defeat an obviously weak republican. Sadly they couldn't.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />There are websites which publish the daily numbers....and the 20th wasn't even an Ann Coulter night!<br /><br />Happy New Year.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sagard is right. Both parties are culpable for this mess. But it's time for a regime change. Eight years of what we've had is more than enough.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ann Coulter- now there's a piece of work.<br /><br />And Happy and Healthy New Year to you too!

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Joe D,<br />I am sorry for re-phrasing your words in a way you would find objectionable. I am sorry for mis-reading your intentions. I think in the midst of this discussion, I let passions get the best of me and I must have read to quickly. I am glad that I mis-read your words. I also consider you a friend. <br /><br />Though politics can get quite heated at times, I always try to remind myself that good people can disagree.<br /><br />Fred C.<br />I have lived in Asia for several years including both India and Nepal, though I have also travelled widely in other parts of Southeast (Thailand and Malasia) and East Asia (Japan, China, Hong Kong,Tibet, etc.). I am an academic who specializes and conducts research in South Asia. I was not a part of the foreign service, though I have a cousin who is. He recently completed a 3 year post in Cairo.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p><br />"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.<br />JimB"<br /><br />I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating. <br /><br />-------<br /><br />To clarify a bit: I lived in Nepal in 91-92 and again in '94. I lived in India in '97-98, and again in 2000. During those times and on other trips to Asia, I have travelled in Japan, China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Maccau, Thailand, and Malaysia. Most of this time was spent as an academic doing research. I had contact with ordinary people from all walks of life as well as academics and the educated elite. I speak Tibetan, Nepali, and some Hindi, so I was able to speak with people in their native tongues, which always helps to loosen things up a bit. And I spoke with friends who trusted me enough to say what they really thought. Of course, my impressions were based on contacts with limited numbers of people, but I can distinctly compare the generally favorable impression of America I received from most, including Muslims, to the generally unfavorable opinion since 2003. The use of torture and the aggressive, unprovoked war in Iraq has seriously damaged America's image abroad in my experience.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"I have lived in the 3rd World as well and if you think mistrust and dislike for the US has not increased exponentially during the Bush administration, you are the one in La La Land.<br />JimB"<br /><br />I'd be curious to know where you lived and in what capacity, for how long, and during what period of time. Also what do you cite in personal observation to qualify the change as "expontential," with which I might quibble. In my view, things such as mistrust and dislike of superpowers fluctuate in history and in certain theaters it has surely increased as you say. So in some ways I agree with you. The statement to which your comeback was addessed was simply a statement of fact as I had observed it over a 30-year career. My point was that too many people talk as if the Bush Administration started with tabla rasa and is thus directly responsible for the current international climate which had embarked on such a couse long before. Of course, I suppose the best way to be loved is to abandon pursuit of national interest. Informed debate on what is in fact the best course of pursuit of national interest is what best serves us, not (in my view)silly accusations and the impugning of motives (e.g. Cheney is evil) of people in power because of political disagreement. I must admit that I find those who invariably see themselves of purer motive than the next guy totally exasperating. <br /><br />-------<br /><br />To clarify a bit: I lived in Nepal in 91-92 and again in '94. I lived in India in '97-98, and again in 2000. During those times and on other trips to Asia, I have travelled in Japan, China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Maccau, Thailand, and Malaysia. Most of this time was spent as an academic doing research. I had contact with ordinary people from all walks of life as well as academics and the educated elite. <br /><br /> I speak Tibetan, Nepali, and some Hindi, so I was able to speak with people in their native tongues, which always helps to loosen things up a bit. And I spoke with friends who trusted me enough to say what they really thought. Of course, my impressions were based on contacts with limited numbers of people, but I can distinctly compare the generally favorable impression of America I received from most before 2001, including Muslims, to the generally unfavorable opinion since 2003. The use of torture and the aggressive, unprovoked war in Iraq has seriously damaged America's image abroad in my experience.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, in that part of the world did any of the Muslim countries' have their reputations harmed due to the use of torture, abuse of women, genital mutiliation, honor killings, beheadings, sucide bombings, no due process and targeting of civilians in wars? I'm sure you informed all of our brothers across the globe of these atrocities as well -- if they hadn't experienced them first hand themselves.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jeff,<br />The only Muslim country I visited was Malaysia, but I spent the least amount of time there. Muslims are a minority in India (about 15%) and a tiny minority in Nepal (about 2%). To answer your question, yes, I speak condemningly and without reservation about these types of atrocities. Generally speaking, I am appalled by a large percentage of the activities I see perpetuated in the name of Islam these days and am almost more appalled by the lack of more moderate Muslims who are willing to speak out against them. As an American living in a so-called democracy, I feel especially compelled to be a vocal critic of my own government.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, see? That wasn't so hard. America's not perfect -- but it's better than the alternative.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>this will probably be my only post in this thread, as i am not that into politics, and rarely spend time debating about them...i'd rather chase girls, drink scotch, and travel... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />that said, i am VERY thankful of our brave men & women who have fought (and continue to fight) for our country, (hi jay wolt, happy new year to you & your family)...and afford us such freedoms and luxuries...<br /><br />do i think this war has gone on way too long? yes, but while we have troops fighting on foreign soil, we MUST support them while they're risking their lives.<br /><br />i'll just simply echo what Joe D. & Jeff have said...i was here on the island of manhattan on 9/11/01...i saw it, i smelled it, i lived it. there was an eerie and frightening sense of fear that lasted for weeks and months (even a little bit to this day). so there was an immediate and fierce call for justice that day...we were pist and very angry.<br /><br /><br />Best-<br />MS

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>no need to be apologize at all.<br /><br />I know you are a good guy - and like I said - I consider you a friend. I took all comments in this thread (not just yours) as spirited political debate - not anything personal.<br /><br />I put the smileys in that post hopefully to convey, well, that I was smiling as I typed that portion and was not actually upset.<br /><br />If anything I typed offended you in any way - I apologize as well.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Michael- great seeing you today and meeting your dad. When he gets back to Pennsylvania, he can tell all his friends about parking in Brooklyn! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>barry, great seeing you as well...sorry we couldn't stay too long, but we certainly enjoyed our day in BK...<br /><br />p.s. we know all about the horrible parking in BK all too well...i lived there for 4 years!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"Jim, see? That wasn't so hard. America's not perfect -- but it's better than the alternative."<br /><br />As much as I criticize the policies of our government (this is a democracy), I love this country. Having lived abroad in two countries and travelled in more than 40, I say with confidence that there ain't no place I'd rather be. After all, any country that produces jazz, baseball, and the Grateful Dead (in no particular order), has gotta be alright in my book.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- can we throw the Jefferson Airplane into that mix?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry: in a word -- NO.

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Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>How about Dylan?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dyaln and CCR, yes?

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>We are trying to put our point across using logic and common sense.....this doesn't appeal to people who have a "Liberal" mindset.<br />Their mind simply functions on emotion....which overwhelms their ability to rationally discuss matters of such significance as we are<br />conversing upon in this thread. Instead, they will switch the conversation to politics at every turn....it's futile, so don't waste your<br /> time and energy.<br /><br />JOANN....you said....<br /><br />"I still think Bush II will be considered "bad" from a broad basis of budget irresponsibility, getting us into a poorly conceived war and <br />then being unwilling to make the tough and unpopular choices necessary to support it, and the intentional attacks on the Constitu-<br />tion - by ignoring the rights and duties of the various branches of government, and by claiming virtually unlimited "war powers" to<br /> unnecessarily strip citizens of important rights."<br /><br />You pride yourself as a Law student......therefore, I am sure you are well aware that Lincoln suspended "habeas corpus" during the<br /> Civil War. And, I'm sure that you are aware that FDR took even more drastic measures during WWII. So, I ask you....why can't you<br /> be fair in evaluating George Bush in this War of Terror that we have been involved in since 1991 ? <br /> <br />This War of Terror didn't just start with 9/11/2001, it started with the PanAm Flight bombing over Lockerbie.....Somalia in 1993.....<br />the WTC bombing in 1993.....our Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.....and, the USS Cole bombing in 2000. And unfortunately,<br /> Bush's predecessor did NOTHING to counteract these terroristic events. <br /><br />Joann....your are an intelligent person, so I expect a rational answer from you to this question.<br /> <br /><br />FINALLY....I'll say to you Net54ers that are far removed from the New York, Washington DC and Pennsylvania areas that were struck<br /> that tragic day on 9/11/2007.....<br />A very good friend of mine lost his son and my older daughter's best friend and neighbor lost her husband when those towers collapsed.<br /> Try to imagine the terrifying thoughts and feelings of your daughter and her best friend while watching those towers collapse and real-<br />izing suddenly that you will never see your loved one again and trying to explain all of this to your two young children ! ! ! ! !<br /><br />DAMN your politics....we have to pull together to prevail in this War of Terror....or have you forgotten already what occurred on 9/11 ?<br /><br />Or, worst yet.....you don't give a damn ! !<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Dylan, CCR, Jefferson Airplane...Yes. I would equally vote yes to X, the Germs, Laurie Anderson, Phillip Glass, and Dave Alvin. I am illogical, but what can I do.... I'm a liberal. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Oh wait, the logic is that it is all good music, born and bread in America.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Anyone know what breakfast cereal Dylan eats?

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>People are always going to blame the previous admin to avoid looking too closely at their own performance. It's going to be done for at least four years when Obama or Hillary takes office. <br /><br />The only language al-Qaeda speak and respect is violence. The only way anyone is going to get to the leadership pieces of that organization is when the approach taken by Los Pepes to get Escobar is used to go after those hiding in Pakistan. It's bloody, uncivilized, and many relatively innocent will pay with their lives. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>bill latzko</b><p>damn YOUR politics....WE are the terrorists...........When something of worldwide significance happens, remember two things 1) the USA is involved in some way and 2) to understand an event more clearly, look and see who it benefits. Just as I am sure you think Oswald killed Kennedy by himself, you think 9/11 was pulled off by a few fanatics by themselves????NO WAY!!!!We engineered 9/11 (who cares about 3000 lives when it's BILLIONS for oil etc), we declared Bin Laden to be the enemy after we trained and armed him and Al Quaida (SP?) years earlier against the russians(shades of blaming another ex-ally Saddam before we shut him up for good)....just like we are capable of overthrowing governments, it's a PIECE OF CAKE to recruit a few fanatics and engineer a few planes to be hijacked. We were lied to about the Gulf of Tonkin (I'm sure you actually thought our ships were attacked first), and you and others continue to believe the lies this right wing dictator and his henchmen spew forth. One thing the govenment learned. When the body bags were shown nightly and America saw Vietnam on TV, then Middle America turned against that immoral invasion. Why aren't you shown what really happens now. Cause if you were, maybe even you would open your eyes !!! happy holidays

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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Take an opinionated group, mix in a controversial subject, inject Bill L. and let the mudslinging commence.<br /><br />Oh for a team of truly world class psychiatrists.

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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Speaking for a semi-decent sample size of people in the country we entered in 2003, many are scared of what will happen when the U.S. leaves. The situation now is no good as it was pre-invasion. The key country people are scared of is the neighbor to the east. And to those that think simply capturing the top few people in the terror organization will cripple it, well maybe for a month or so but it would be back in no time. They are not going away and in order to cripple it, the legs need to be chopped out from underneath the head. <br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hi Ted!<br /><br /><img src="http://attendingtheworld.files.wordpress.com/2006/08/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://barista.media2.org/wp-content/250pxIranContraTimeCover.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Pennsylvania TEd,<br /><br />What happened on 9/11, the World Trade Center attack in 1993 and the Pan Am bombing were not terrorist attacks, they were publictiy attacks. Things that would make international news and gain attention to the organizations that were behind them.<br /><br />If you want TERROR, try the Son of Sam and the two guys who were shooting people from the back of their van and from the trunk of their car and then driving off. THAT is terror. Nobody knew who these guys were or where they would strike next. The victims were randomly selected. No rhyme or reason to it. THAT type of crime SCARES people because THEY could be next. <br /><br />The World Trade Center was attacked twice. I don't call that random.<br /><br />That is why I wasn't scared of being attacked on 9/11. I wasn't in or around a highly public building or area. Again, I was MORE scared of the people driving crazily on the road trying to find gasoline before the prices spiked even higher.<br /><br />The War monger Bush and his scare tactics ("the terrorists want to kill you and your children") is just a bunch of BS. What the terrorists want to do is attck public symbols of America and show their followers they can damage the Great Satan. If those symbols just happen to have people in or around them and they are killed, that is just a plus for the terrorists.<br /><br />Like I said in a previous post, if another terrorist attack happens in America, I highly doubt it is going to be against a farm house in Iowa. It is going to be against something that is very public and that will make headlines around the world.<br /><br />If Bhutto was killed by Al Qaeda, which it is looking like, then that just proves my point. She was a highly public figure. She was also against extremists. They killed her and it is news around the world. They didn't just go and shoot some random person on a corner and leave. THAT wouldn't have made news world wide. But killing a well known politician who was against extremism...... <br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- logical and intelligent people can care about terrorism just as much as you do. But it does not obligate them to blindly follow our president. Just because we need to fight terrorism does not automatically mean he is going about it the right way. Frankly, I don't think he is fully qualified to handle this job, and I would rate his success so far as rather poor.<br /><br />Why don't you ever tolerate other people's opinions? Your opinion is just that, an opinion. It is not the only answer to a problem. Problems can be complex and have many different possible solutions. In America we allow room for dissent.<br /><br />I am generally a liberal but I have seen many opinions on this thread that differ from mine yet make good sense. And I am willing to listen. I wish you would be a little more open minded. Thank you. You will always be my lifelong friend but sometimes I read your posts and I just don't know what to say.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>That's old news....in the early '80s Iran was a serious problem and we aided Iraq in their war with Iran. There are <br />times when.....The enemy of our enemy is temporary our "friend".....this same paradox applied in WWII, when we <br />fought together with the USSR against the Axis powers to defeat the Nazis and the Japanese.<br /><br />As I said in my previous post, you are letting your emotion overshadow your better thinking, by showing us that<br /> photo.<br /><br /><br />And, DAVE SMITH.....<br /><br />SPIN it all you want.....you are living in La-La Land.....and, I'm not going to argue with a fool.