Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>I believe that Kevin has a greater ability to identify alterations for two reasons. He has done quite a bit of experimentation to see what the results of different actions are. The second is he spends more time looking at the cards than I believe that the TPG do. He stated that he will spend 15 minutes to an hour looking at a card. I am here to say that if the grading compinies spent that much time, there would be far fewer errors in holders. I recall hearing that when PSA started, they would weigh cards to help detect alterations. I do not know how many different alterations, other than trimming, will change the weight of a card.<br /><br />Most people, not the doctors, want the TPG to get it correct every time. If they spent 15 to 60 minutes to grade your cards, what would the cost be, what would the backlog be. What would happen to the $5-10 grading specials? <br /><br />I work for a manufacturing company, and I know that quality has its price. I believe that all the TPG are all for profit corporations and they have the same type of issues to deal with. I believe that they all feel that they do as good of a job as they need to, but would like it to be better. Sometimes it is how the warranty portion is handled. Companies have a budget for warranty and they expect it to be spent. This is not justification for errors, just an expectation.<br /><br />I have not thought Kevin's idea all the way through, but I would think that for it to work out the best is to have the other TPG to buy into it. I can see some contacting Kevin and paying him to to to an auction house and inspect some of the cards and having him report back to them. If this happens, the opinion should only be between Kevin and his client, since that is who is paying for the service, which is only an opinion.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Given Kevin's skills, I wonder if he would ever consider starting a new grading service? I'm sure he could find some backers to help him get it off the ground, and while there are already three or four major services, there is always room for a better one.<br /><br />Of course I am assuming this is something Kevin wants to do, when in fact he may not. But I do believe he has the ability.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />That actually sounds a lot more like it would work. If it were a whole new service, it could be a pricier but more credible grade. For all we point out the differences between PSA, SGC and GAI, they really are all very much like one another.<br /><br />A company that charged $50-$100 for routine service and took much more than 30-60 seconds with a card would definitely be different than the others. I suspect that a slab from that company would also carry more weight than the others - PSA/SGC/GAI would come to be seen as commodities within the grading world.<br /><br />Anything Kevin can do before a sale is more likely to work. It's the after-sale aspect of his review that I think really creates the sticky issues.<br /><br />J

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Is this turning into a Six Degrees of Separation thread? Or World Series of card collecting?<br />I'll see your Heitman and raise you a Jim Beckett conversation.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think any grading service can take a common T206 with general wear, look at it for half a minute, slap a label on it, charge $10, and call it VG.<br /><br />But when you get into the higher priced higher grade cards, there is a need for a more thorough evaluation. And there is always room in the marketplace for a better mousetrap.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I think that three different fields of expertise are involved in third party grading.<br /><br />- authentication<br />- grade assessment<br />- alteration identification<br /><br />My understanding is that Kevin solely contends that he has competitive knowledge in the last aspect.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the most difficult part of the process is detecting subtle alterations. Grading a card isn't all that complicated; most of the people who read this board could probably do it.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Exactly, Barry. Commodity cards are better suited to commodity grading approaches. The quick look method is more appropriate for lower value cards, and in turn the lower value cards would not be well matched with any expensive review. So in terms of both extent of review and pricing, the common cards and current grading are about right for one another.<br /><br />But high end cards - either by rarity or grade/condition - definitely merit more money spent on review and also a more thorough review. Both the cost and approach are a good match. <br /><br />Gil - I thought of that too although I was only thinking grade and alteration. But somehow there has to be a stream flow of both parts of the expertise, with the endorsements of all parts being indicated on the card. Like maybe make Kevin a stop on the road to PSA, or whatever. He gives it the alteration thumbs up, and they give it the grade, etc.<br /><br />Joann

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joann- agreed that Kevin's skills would be geared to the high end market, and he would have to charge a more substantial fee for his services. But if you're going to spend five figures on a high grade card, it would be money well spent.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>What would seem to provide the best value to me is to send a raw high end card to Kevin, have him review it and send it in to the grading company and returned to Kevin. This way there is no chance of swaping cards. He could then put on his sticker, maybe even a different sticker than an in holder review sticker.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>If you are planning to spend thousands of dollars on a card, either (1) you should be knowledgeable enough to evaluate it yourself before buying it or (2) have the expert opinion of a TPG that will stand behind its opinions. Since option #1 doesn't describe many of the high-dollar purchasers (either for lack of expertise or lack of time and ability to preview auction lots in person), that leaves option #2. The only TPG I know of at present that stands behind its work consistently is SGC. Bring them a "whoops" in their holder and they will make good. I just don't need a double-plus-good extra layer of experts investigating a prospective purchase provided that the TPG will stand behind its work.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What's A TPG? I'm terrible with abbreviations.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Third Party Grader. Barry, you'll never make it in this field giving up so quickly.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>Barry, I take TPG to be Third Party Grading.<br /><br />

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I knew it would be too easy.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"that leaves option #2. The only TPG I know of at present that stands behind its work consistently is SGC."<br /><br /><br />Label this post as hearsay if you choose:<br /><br />Only problem with that is rumors have it through a very good source that SGC "may" be kicking back slabbed cross-over cards as trimmed when they might not be. Again, this is where the opinion part comes in.<br /><br />I can say with all honesty that lately I have seen more slabbed cards labeled trimmed or altered that have a high probability of not being altered at all. Unfortunately this is, in my opinion, a way one grading company can devalue the opinion of another or maybe they are tightening up a little...I just don’t know. No attacks please.<br /><br /><br />

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Interesting thought, Kevin.<br /><br />No attacks, but let me ask a question.<br /><br />These slabbed crossover cards that were rejected as trimmed by SGC - did you see/evaluate them before they were submitted to SGC?<br /><br />-Al

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>is that what kevin is talking about is that over a certain value, sgc rightly is reluctant to express an opinion on whether a card is trimmed without taking it out of the holder, which of course its owners don't want

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>No, he's saying that he thinks SGC is automatically rejecting most crossovers as trimmed in hopes that the people submitting the crossovers lose faith in cards graded by the other companies.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>where is the upside in that for a grading company?<br /><br />I talked to SGC about that when submitting an order a couple months ago and it makes no business sense to be making any sort of representations or implied promises of grade prior to cracking out a card, regardless of its value.<br />

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>I very much doubt Dave Forman would sanction that sort of thing. It seems to me it is in his interest to get cards out of PSA holders and into SGC ones, where they can do it in good faith.

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p><br />Kevin wrote:<br />"Label this post as hearsay if you choose:<br /><br />Only problem with that is rumors have it through a very good source that SGC "may" be kicking back slabbed cross-over cards as trimmed when they might not be."<br /><br /><br />A "rumor" that something "may" be happening is heresay at best. When disseminated by someone with aspirations to be their competitor, well.....<br /><br />JimB

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>If a card is slabbed and there is any doubt, it is going to get kicked back. When you have a "real" guarantee, that is how business works. As soon as SGC cracks the slab, they guarantee authenticity and the minimum grade that was requested. This actually means something. <br /><br />The angry collector or dealer that gets some PSA slabbed rejected should look at the big picture. If SGC ever starts rejecting every single GAI/BVG sent in for crossover and starts rejecting 30% of submissions because of not meeting minimum size requirements when people actually opened them straight from packs, then the collector/dealers has a legitimate beef. Until then, free your mind, as that slabbed PSA card may be in doubt. Do not get mad at others, you bought the PSA card. <br /><br />The real test for this/these unhappy dealers:<br /><br />1. Pay Saucier a fee to authenticate the card in slab. His authentification is then guaranteed for the value of the card. <br />2. Break the card out and send to SGC. If rejected, send back to PSA. <br />3. If PSA also rejects, then Saucier pays the person the money based on his guaranteed authentification. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>At what point will a FPG be needed?

Dinner With Kevin Saucier
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Or even a FPG.