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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Beautiful card of Slow Joe.....or is it ?<br /><br />Zinn......are we sure this picture is not that of Larry Doyle ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>On 2nd thought......the ROSE Co. postcards of 1908-09 in the Standard Catalog list your<br />card as Larry Doyle.<br /><br />And, the Rose picture of Doyle looks a lot like your 1906 Highlanders pix of Joe Doyle.<br /><br />Anyhow....here is my E95 card of Larry Doyle and it too bears a close resemblance to the<br /> pix on the Rose card. <br /><br />So, do we have a mix-up of faces here, or what ? This Doyle mystery is becoming even more<br /> intriguing every day. They were confused 99 years ago; and, we are still confused today.<br /><br />Wait a minute.....perhaps, Joe and Larry were identical TWINS.....ha !<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/e95doylelarry.jpg">
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>If you start with the premise that the 1906 Sporting Life PC, New York American League, pictures Joe Doyle then the Rose PC likewise pictures Joe Doyle irrespective of the fact that it is listed New York National League.<br /><br />Since Joe was a pitcher and is so designated on the Sporting Life PC the picture HAS to be Joe. Larry was not a pitcher.<br /><br />The fact that it appears that it is Joe Doyle on the Rose PC was first brought to our attention by Joe P. He is of the opinion, as am I, that the Rose PC is another "error" card in that it pictures the incorrect Doyle. <br /><br />I don't think the E95 Doyle resembles Joe. JMO<br /><br />Zinn<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940496.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940515.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182132531.JPG">
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Well, there is one starting point we are sure of.....and that is the 1906 p/c indeed depicts Joe Doyle.....as,<br /> Larry Doyle didn't start playing in the Majors till 1907.<br />Given that premise, I fully agree with you that the Rose p/c picture is Joe Doyle, instead of the intended<br /> Larry Doyle.<br /><br />So, by some strange coincidence did this "mix-up" lead to the confusion by the T206 designers when they<br /> initially identified their Joe Doyle card with "N.Y. Nat'l" ?<br /><br />These Joe/Larry "Doyle mysteries/mix-ups" are really getting convoluted ! ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>OK, I've listed here the 4 (only ?) cards depicting Joe Doyle.....<br /><br /><br />1906 Sporting Life (Highlanders) postcard<br /><br />1908-1909 ROSE Co. postcard (erroneously identified as "New York N.L.")<br /><br />1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. Nat'l (error...."Nat'l")....Piedmont 350 (only back)<br /><br />1910 T206 DOYLE, N.Y. (Piedmont 350, Sweet Cap 350, Sovereign 350, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi)<br /><br />Are ther any more BB cards depicting Joe Doyle ? ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ted- you forgot the now famous "Ted Z Mark" error card.<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>I think that covers it. I'm not aware of any others. <br /><br />Zinn
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>An email, two Joe Doyle's on Ebay, and Al's input brings the total responses to 65.<br />Three NO-MARK cards and an interesting OLD MILL with the MARK.<br /><br />We are approx. 2/3 rds. the way to 100 inputs....So, how about it, you avid T206er's....<br />let's get some more inputs ?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I deliberately left out the "Ted Z Mark"..Joe Doyle from this list, as it really is not a distinct issue.<br /><br />I like how JOE D (our resident printer) summed it up on an early post here......when they polished<br />off the "Nat'l" lettering on the plate, they didn't do a clean job of it the 1st time.<br /><br />Mike....I have put my Piedmont 350 Joe Doyle (with the MARK) in my All-PIEDMONT set album.....<br />in the spot that I had reserved for the real Joe Doyle error.<br />I look at this card as a "poor-man's - wannabe".....Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l.....as it's the closest that <br />I ever expect to get to owning the Joe Doyle error.<br /><br />And, if anyone else chooses to view this card as such....be sure you have a Piedmont 350.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>One more SC 350 with NO MARK.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......6/19/07 <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........21<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......2.........19<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........10<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........0<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................12..........54<br /><br /><br /><br />With 66 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are approaching 3rd base....so, we still have a way to<br /> go to score a run.<br /><br />Thanks for looking thru your T206 cards,<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>As far as the card is concerned, the pressmen were on target.<br /><br />It's a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) Joe Doyle.<br />A beautiful pastel portait of Joe.<br />At the bottom of the card you'll find:<br /><br />Doyle, Cincinnati Nationals<br /><br />Now here's the kicker.<br />I pulled out a 1997 SCD Catalog to double check it.<br />I found it.<br /><br />It was listed under JIM DOYLE.<br /><br />ROTFLMAO ... some people don't get no respect.<br /><br />I got this card from Macrae many years ago.<br />Unfortunately my infamous scanner is yet to be hooked up.<br />What good is talking about cards, if you can't show them.<br /><br />If anyone has a 1910-11 Sporting Life (M116) JIM DOYLE, feel free to post it. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />jOE
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>It's our boy Joe!!! (pic courtesy of VCP)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182386970.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940496.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1181940515.JPG">
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>You know ... the more I look at all those Joe Doyle's, the more he looks like Larry. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Stay well.<br />jOE
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>judson hamlin</b><p>Ted - chalk me up for a Piedmont 350 with no mark.<br /><br />I know that there are some EPdG's out there-- somewhere...
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Thanks for your input, it will be tallied....once I get a few more responses.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>This Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error.<br /><br />Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910......<br />or,<br />were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ?<br /><br />What's your guess ?<br /><br /><br />This is really amazing..FOUR chances to get it right.....the Rose p/c.....the initial T206 of Joe Doyle (Nat'l);<br /> and, the "corrected" (omitting the League affiliation).....and, this M116 card depicting him (but, most likely<br /> intended to portray Jim Doyle).......and, all four times they "screwed-up" !<br /><br />Judd Bruce "Slow Joe" Doyle just "doesn't get any respect".....way before Rodney Dangerfield ever coined<br /> that expression.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"This Sporting Life (M116) card depicting Joe Doyle is another "mix-up" error.<br /><br />Were the M116 designers intending to portray Joe Doyle who pitched in only 3 games for Cincy in 1910......<br />or, were they intending to portray Jim Doyle, the 3rd baseman for Cincy in 1910-11, who played in 137 games ?<br /><br />What's your guess ?"<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />First of all, Clark Griffith, Joe Doyle's original manager back in 1906, took a shot with Joe's arm when he brought him over to the Reds in 1910.<br />1910 - two teams NY A (3G 0-2) CIN N (5G 0-0) but he was an established pitcher since 1906.<br /><br />Whereas Jim Doyle 3B, arrived to the majors at the age of 29 in 1910.<br />He appeared in 7 games, 13 AB, 2 H. ... that's for 1910 in CINCY.<br /><br />Hans Lobert was the Reds regular 3B, and the M116 already had an image of the Reds third baseman.<br /><br />In 1911, Jim Doyle played for the Chicago Cubs.<br />He appeared in 130 games, 472 AB, 133 H ... for 1911 CHI N.<br /><br />The poor guy passed on in 1912.<br /><br />As for the pressmen that worked on the Joe Doyle M116 Sporting Life.<br /><br />They nailed that one dead center on the target.<br /><br />No Mistake - No Mix - Up - No MYSTERY.<br /><br />The laffer was the innocent mistake in the 1997 SCD.<br />Listing the M116 Joe Doyle card as JIM DOYLE. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>JOE<br /><br />Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle".<br />Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ? <br />It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting <br />Life (M116) designers got them confused.<br /><br />Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was<br /> intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy. <br /><br />The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the <br />M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910.<br />In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL).<br /><br />I am very familiar with M116's....I have collected 260 diff. cards of this set and 20 of the Blue variations.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"JOE<br /><br />Why are you starting with the 1997 SCD ?.....The very 1st SCD price guide in 1987 listed this Doyle as "Jim Doyle".<br />Now, I don't know you, or anyone, can blame Krause as the cause of this "mix-up" ? <br />It is certainly conceivable, given the coincidence of two Doyle's appearing on the roster in 1910, that the Sporting <br />Life (M116) designers got them confused.<br /><br />Therefore, I do not know how anyone can be certain which of these two Doyle's (Jim or Joe) on the Cincy team was<br />intended by the M116 designers. Jim Doyle played in 7 games....Joe Doyle pitched in only 3 games for Cincy. <br /><br />The M116 set was issued in several series from 1910 to well into 1911. Yes, Lobert is depicted with Cincy in the <br />M116 set, as he was included in the very 1st series issued in 1910.<br />In Feb. 1911 he was traded to Philadelphia (NL)."<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Let me do this slowly.<br /><br />1. First, the only SCD catalog that I carry around with me for a checklist, is the 1997 issue. ... they are too heavy.<br /><br />2. Now you're telling us that Krause started their price list catalog in 1987, (very true) that Krause had the Jim Doyle GOOF UP in the first issue, and has never been corrected.<br /><br />3. Ted, the M116 were issued 77 years before the Krause SCD Price list, ... and not the other way around.<br /><br />All the M116's, namely the Joe Doyle card, had their names, and league designations on them.<br /><br />4. All Krause - SCD had to do, was copy the names ... THEY GOOFED, and never corrected it.<br /><br />5. As for the pressmen that worked on the 1910 M116 set:<br />Why would you think that they in 1910 would consider printing a card of Jim Doyle?<br /><br />7. The choice between the two Doyles on the roster is easy.<br /><br />One is a 29 year old new comer to the majors, that eventually got 13 AB in 1910.<br /><br />The other was an established pitcher, That Clark Griffith was counting on.<br /><br />If you were there, and had a vote in the matter, ... you and SCD would have been the only ones voting for Jim Doyle. <br /><br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>judson hamlin</b><p>There's a Sweet Cap 350 f.30 with an apparent mark at Mike Wheat's to add to the survey.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Four more inputs.....<br /><br />Judd's two inputs.....<br /><br />Piedmont 350......No Mark<br />Sweet Cap 350....Mark<br /><br />Two emailed inputs.....<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350....No Mark<br />Polar Bear...........No Mark
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......6/22/07 <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........22<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......3.........20<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........11<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........0<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................13..........57<br /><br /><br /><br />With 70 cards reported, we are still short of a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are sliding into 3rd base....and, we still have 90 ft. to<br /> go to score a Run.<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to look through your T206 cards.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Two more inputs....both Sweet Cap 350 cards....No Mark on them.<br /><br />Raises the total to 72 inputs.<br /><br />Thanks everyone, <br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Scott B.</b><p><br />So, what kind of conclusion can we draw on this "dot variation"???<br /><br />If that "dot" was a remnant mark of the removal of the word "Nat'l", does it means the infamous N.Y. Nat'l Doyle can be found in SC, PB and OM backs as well? <br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>SCOTT B<br /><br />1st.....With the moderate sampling, so far, in this survey we can conclude that this "printer's mark" appears<br /> on an average of 1 out of every 5.5 Joe Doyle cards.....and, is independent of T-brand.<br /><br />2nd.....The "Nat'l" lettering on the few known Joe Doyle error cards (approx. 10 known to date) are exclusively<br /> on cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs. And, this fact will never change as T206 guys printed the Piedmont brand<br /> first on all the press runs. And, since they caught this error very quickly, it did not get printed with any sub-<br />sequent T-brand.<br /><br />3rd.....If our assumption is correct, that this mark is the remnant of the "N" from "Nat'l" (that was hastily re-<br />moved); then we can also assume that on the 3rd press run thay cleanly removed any remnant of their initial<br /> mistake. As the majority of the cards indicate.<br /><br />But, the real question is....if they went thru all these corrections, why didn't they add "Amer." next to N.Y. ? <br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......6/28/07 <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........22<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........23<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........12<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........0<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........61<br /><br /><br /><br />With 75 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />So, keep those inputs rolling in....we are now safe on 3rd base....and, only 90 ft. away from<br /> scoring a Run.<br /><br />Thanks for taking the time to look through your T206 cards......and, we are still looking for<br /> that Joe Doyle with an EPDG back (that the POP report says exists) ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Three more inputs from Net54 "readers" to report.<br /><br />Two "No-Mark" Doyle cards.....a Sweet Caporal 350 and a Polar Bear.<br /><br />One Doyle card with the "Mark".....a Sweet Caporal 350.<br /><br />These 3 inputs have been tallied into the prior Updated survey.<br /><br />Thanks guys,<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Scott Levy</b><p>One more for ya....<br /><br />Doyle with mark - Old Mill (psa 4)
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>SCOTT L<br /><br />The Old Mill Joe Doyle that you are reporting.....does it happen to be the one that just sold on<br /> ebay this past week (lot #290130244677) ?<br /><br />I ask, because the info on that particular card was emailed to me 10 days ago. And, I doing my<br /> darn-dest to keep all inputs unique.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Scott</b><p>Wow....you guys are 10 steps ahead of me. It's the same card (my dad just bought it off eBay)....so don't count it in your stats.<br /><br />Regards,<br />SGL
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the Joe Doyle with the Old Mill back.<br /><br />It seemed too coincidental that a 2nd one was exactly like the one that had been reported earlier.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>ted- i visited Scott & his dad last night (who have an amzaing collection by the way) and i saw the Old Mill "mark" example...it is subtle, but very cool, nonetheless. kudos to you for "discovering" this variation, it could really become something big.<br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>You stated:<br /><br />June 25 2007, 12:46 PM <br />"2nd.....The "Nat'l" lettering on the few known Joe Doyle error cards (approx. 10 known to date)"<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Ten is a rather high number.<br /><br />Are you able to elaborate on that number, or are you just throwing it out there? <br /><br />Joe
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>MVSNYC<br /><br />Thanks for the nice words, I really appreciate them. That very card of Joe Doyle with the Old Mill back and<br /> the printer's Mark was the 1st one I've ever seen advertised on ebay stating that it has the printer's Mark.<br /><br /> That card was reported to me about 12 days ago.<br />And, it's nice to see that a Net54 member won it.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>JOE P<br /><br />I said "approximately 10".......I can name 8, and I've heard of a possible 9th.<br /><br />I don't give out names on this board.<br /><br />Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......7/7/07.......two more inputs (both Sweet Cap 350 - no marks) <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........22<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........25<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........12<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........0<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........63<br /><br /><br /><br />With 77 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br /><br />Thanks, for looking thru your T206 cards; and, are there anymore Joe Doyle's in Net54-land ?<br /><br />And, does anyone have a Joe Doyle with an EPDG back ?<br />The POP report says it exists....I have never seen one.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"JOE P<br /><br />"I said "approximately 10".......I can name 8, and I've heard of a possible 9th.<br /><br />I don't give out names on this board.<br /><br />Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12."."<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />OK, You don't have to tell the board.<br /><br />Being that I own the third known Doyle, and being that I once had in my possession two of Dr Koos doctored Doyles ... I've been researching the good and the bad DOYLE's since day 1.<br /><br />How about sending me the names to compare notes?<br /><br />You also say that other reports in the hobby, have said as many as 12.<br /><br />Give us the link to those reports.<br /><br />I've been researching the Doyle error card since 1987.<br /><br />You just got turned on to the Doyle one year and a half ago.<br /><br />The debate you had with Barry Sloat in 2005 is proof of that.<br /><br />If you want to work with me ... fine.<br /><br />If you rather side step this ... I WILL UNDERSTAND.<br /><br />Because, if I see a red flag that's brought on by my research, I will raise that red flag to the top of the mast.<br /><br />My research since 1987, is NOT based on speculations, suppositions, assumptions or theories.<br /><br />It's based on happenings and people ... the opposite to the above.<br /><br />Now this could be a continuation to the 1990 Texas national.<br />Where Mark Macrae and I wasted our time trying to educate the dealers at that show.<br />The first one was a dealer from Denver, that for hours refused to believe that he bought a bum Magie, created by Dr Koos, from a dealer from Flint MI at the Texas show.<br />He got his money back, but what a waste of time.<br />Before the Texas national, I had already gotten my money back from Dr Koos.<br />Do to the research i did on him, he saw the wisdom of playing ball with me.<br />Mark Macrae and I, with the support of Lipset, L. Fritsch, Herman Kaufman, John Tisch and Lemke, went to Texas to warn the business end of the hobby about a malignant growth by the name of Dr Koos, Danny Dubchek.<br /><br />I gave them his name.<br />I gave them his MO.<br />I told them what to look for, without telling all.<br />No sense telling the Dr how to correct what to look for.<br />I tried to convince them to go after him, because he wasn't going anywhere.<br /><br />To make a long story short, the business end was more interested in the Kit Young annual February shindig in Hawaii than fighting off a growing malignant growth in the hobby.<br />The rest is history, Dr Koos had a ball at the expense of the collectors.<br /><br />I fought for mine, and got it back. ... But that's me.<br /><br />Ted, you can start by giving us the link to the other reports in the hobby that have said as many as 12 Doyle's.<br /><br />There's nothing worse for a researcher than misinformation.<br />To a brainpicker, it means nothing.<br /><br />Or you can step away ... Like Texas.<br /><br /><br />Joe<br /> <br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>JOE<br /><br />At times you come across as very confrontational. And, this is turning-off people on this board. It is not<br /> the same friendly, conversational Joe.....that I remember talking with at Willow Grove or Ft. Washington<br /> for hours at a time. You have to tone it it down, Joe.<br /><br />Regarding the....."Other reports in the hobby have said as many as 12".....Joe Doyle error cards......<br />I heard this from a collector, recently at the Reading Show, who tracks the so-called "POP reports".<br /> So, you might want to check that out. I don't recall whether it was the PSA or SGC report. I do not<br /> follow that stuff.....anyhow, I think that figure is inaccurate.<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Heard it from a collector at the Reading show???<br /><br />Pop Report???<br /><br />Ted, I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years.<br />I know how you feel about slabs and Pop REPORTS.<br /><br />We feel the same way.<br /><br />THIS FORUM IS JUST DISCOVERING THAT THE GRADING SYSTEM MIGHT BE BROKEN.<br /><br />At 76 I don't have much time to play footsies with others.<br />Then again, at sixteen, I didn't play footsies either, but I was a little bit more diplomatic. ... Time plus time equals time. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I find your current digging into the micro portion of N. Y. Nat'l very interesting.<br /><br />Joe D. of the second generation printing Joe D's nailed it with his summation.<br /><br />The sad part is:<br /><br />ANYTIME, and I mean anytime, that misinformation of hearsay is passed along as part of the digging, IT WILL UNDERMINE THE CONCERTED EFFORTS OF A GOOD DIG.<br /><br />In other words, YOU ARE DEFEATING YOUR PURPOSE, by just tossing around a word, or a number just because it sounds good, and saying ... "I didn't say it, someone at the Reading show said it."<br /><br />Sorry Ted.<br />It sounds like the 1990 Texas national all over again.<br /><br />If any of you have any questions about that.<br />Just ask Mark Macrae.<br /><br />We wasted our time in Texas.<br />I could have been looking for cards for my collection.<br /><br />Do you really think the grading system is broken?<br /><br />NAH!<br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>JOE<br /><br />Say something.....POSITIVE.....without qualifying it ! !<br /><br />Surprise us.<br /><br /><br />And Joe.....<br />You stated...."I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years."<br /><br />Then, how come you didn't notice this "printer's mark".....before I did ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Pennsylvania Ted:<br /><br />"JOE<br /><br />"Say something.....POSITIVE.....without qualifying it ! !<br /><br />Surprise us.<br /><br /><br />And Joe.....<br />You stated...."I've been researching the Doyle for twenty years."<br /><br />Then, how come you didn't notice this "printer's mark".....before I did ?"<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />1. I'll gladly qualify whatever you want me to qualify.<br /><br />2. To question number two.<br /><br />About your earth shaking discovery of the printers mark.<br />It might be difficult for your Bowmen mindset to recall, but it took from 1909 till 1980 for someone like Fritsch to come across <br />the Slow Joe Doyle error.<br />Therefore, I will apologize for not spotting the dot on a card during my 20 years of research on the Doyle error.<br />BTW, how many dots have you come up with?<br />For someone that just discovered the Doyle error, you do pretty good work.<br />Unfortunately, you undermine, and defeat all that work, by inserting some misinformation with it.<br /><br />Misinformation, is the worse possible ingredient to a researcher.<br />It can sidetrack, their research.<br />Now, are you going to work with me on the 6-7-8 or 9 names of the GOOD known Doyles that according to YOU have been found?<br /><br /><br />Or, like the dealers of the 1990 Texas national, do nothing, and let the collectors fend for themselves.<br /><br />Your move Ted.<br /><br />Joe Pelaez<br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Check.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Finally......a Joe Doyle with an El Principe de Gales back.....No Mark<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......7/16/07 <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........24<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........25<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........12<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........66<br /><br /><br /><br />With 80 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br /><br />Thanks, for looking thru your T206 cards; and, are there anymore Joe Doyle's in Net54-land ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Two emails, each reporting a Joe Doyle with No Mark (both with Piedmont 350 backs).<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>UPDATED......7/17/07......Sweet Cap on ebay (no mark) <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........24<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........26<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........12<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........67<br /><br /><br /><br />With 81 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br /><br />Come on Net54er's....need only 19 more of your Joe Doyle cards to reach the goal of 100....<br />show or tell us about yours ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Just returned from the National and the Cooperstown Shows.<br /><br />Met a good number of Net54er's and had a lot of fun.<br /><br />Looked over 600 - T206's and only found 5 - Joe Doyle's....<br /><br />Two with Piedmont 350 backs and 3 having Sweet Cap 350 backs.....none had the Printer's Mark<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>UPDATED........Aug 4th 2007 <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........26<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........29<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........12<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........72<br /><br /><br /><br />With 86 cards reported, we are approaching a reasonable random sample......I'd like to see<br /> approx. 100 inputs of this card. Then, I will feel more confident that we have a better idea<br /> of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br /><br />Come on Net54er's....need only 14 more of your Joe Doyle cards to reach the goal of 100....<br />show or tell us about yours ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Rick McQuillan</b><p>This thread has been very interesting. So it looks like the extra dot cards are 5 times scarcer than the other Doyles. Will this have an impact on price? Will the extra dot cards be 5 times the price of the other Doyles, or will they carry a small premium, or does anyone really care enough about the difference to pay extra for this card? Will this be added to the T206 checklist? Will PSA put the "extra dot" version on their flip? Have the "extra dot" versions already sold for higher prices on ebay? I noticed that the Doyle extra dot card on Mike Wheat's website is already gone.<br /><br />I have enjoyed watching this thread develop during the last two months, and it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. <br /><br />Do we have an idea of how many Doyle's are out there? 100's? 1000's? And if 15% of these have the extra dots can we get an idea of how many variations are out there? Are they more rare than the Elberfeld Washington Portrait or Demmitt St. Louis cards?<br /><br />As usual, I have lots of questions and no answers. Hopefully the T206 experts can answer some of these questions.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />Rick<br /><br /><br /><br />
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Tune in tomorrow..........<br /><br />Same time ........<br /><br />Same station............<br /><br />For the adventures of the Doyle variation Dots............<br /><br />Without the dot in your life, you have a Doyle error....
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>bill latzko</b><p>I have 2 without the dot--Don't know the back since they are in my safe box bill<br /><br />Out of Iraq NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>RICK<br /><br />I don't think there are many T206 collectors that care about this "printer's mark". Most trying to complete this set are just happy <br />to find a Joe Doyle. And, the reasons this card is tough to find are well-known.<br /><br />Recently, a "reader" of this forum did advertise "the dot" when he listed on ebay a Joe Doyle (with an Old Mill back that was graded <br />either a "4" or a "5"); and, he sold it for about $800. Whether the "dot" made an impact on the selling price is anyone's guess.<br /><br />I did not initiate this thread to establish some monetary value on this strange variation of the Joe Doyle card....but to inform and to<br /> stir up some thought-provoking conversation. As, my understanding was that very few T206 collectors were aware of this printer's <br />mark and the possible significance that it may imply.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BILL L<br /><br />Thanks for your two inputs....but, I need their back info ?<br /><br />Meanwhile, two emails reported Joe Doyle cards....one with a Polar Bear back and a 2nd with a Sweet Cap 350 back....No Mark on either.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>UPDATED............Aug 9, 2007<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........26<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........30<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........13<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........76<br /><br /><br /><br />With 90 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br /><br />This will be the last go around on this Survey, so Net54er's, check-out your Joe Doyle cards and show or tell us about yours ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Side stepping the source of the 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 assumed Slow Joe Doyle error cards.<br /><br />Ted, you are a continuation of the Texas national.<br />They did nothing to defend their business, and the collectors.<br /><br />Your contribution, is mixing in some misinformation, with your interesting survey. ... what a waste, and what a defeat of purpose.<br /><br />Joe
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Joe "the Parrot" Palaez<br /><br />You keep repeating the same old "mumble-jumble" that no one here understands or cares to <br />hear about. Your NEGATIVITY adds nothing to this forum....so get the hell off my thread.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>Passing on sourceless misinformation, is a positive practice???<br /><br />Because that's what you're doing.<br /><br />Enough with the assumptions - speculations - suppositions and Teddie theories. ... give us some facts.<br />Every time some one asks for the facts, you run and hide.<br /><br />You are so in love with theories, that you try to create a mystery, where there's no mystery to be had.<br /><br />Go ahead, keep throwing sourceless numbers around.<br />All you;re doing is creating a new batch of newbies with numerical misinformation.<br /><br />If that's your aim ... GO FOR IT.
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JOE P<br /><br />Yes, I have come up with a lot of theories over the 30+ years that I have been in this hobby (as an adult).<br />Many of these theories have been proven true. At least I have the intellectual curiosity to delve into cer-<br />tain aspects of this hobby, that are puzzling to collectors.<br /><br />Now, regarding your incessant "crowing" about how many "real" Joe Doyle error cards exist....Mark Macrae<br /> and I discussed this subject at length while we shared a table in Cleveland, recently.<br />And, we think there are 5 to 6 Joe Doyle's that are positively confirmed and 2 - 4 that....although they have<br /> been professionally graded.....can possibly be "altered ones". I am not a fan of graded cards; however, since<br /> these additional 4 cards have been graded....until proven otherwise, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Two more reported Joe Doyle cards.......both with Sweet Cap 350 backs....neither with Marks.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>UPDATED............Aug 19, 2007<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........26<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........32<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........13<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........78<br /><br /><br /><br />With 92 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 15% of the Joe Doyle cards.<br /><br />If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ralph</b><p>Could this dot card be a error in which led to the fixing of the card? I would think it could be a logical assumption,just my two cents <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>UPDATED........Aug 27, 2007......4 new inputs reported No Mark (Piedmont, Polar Bear and 2-Sweet Caps.)<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........27<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........34<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........14<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........1<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........82<br /><br /><br /><br />With 96 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 14% of the Joe Doyle cards.....<br />or, on an average of 1 out of every 7 cards of Joe Doyle.<br /><br />If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Two more Joe Doyle inputs.....<br /><br />Old Mill....No Mark<br /><br />Piedmont....No Mark<br /><br /><br /><br />Only two more needed to attain a sample of 100 different cards....your inputs are appreciated.<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>UPDATED........Sept 7, 2007......3 new inputs reported No Mark (Old Mill, Piedmont, Polar Bear)<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........28<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........34<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........15<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........2<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........85<br /><br /><br /><br />With 99 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 14% of the Joe Doyle cards.....<br />or, on an average of 1 out of every 7 cards of Joe Doyle.<br /><br />If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Well we finally hit the 100+ mark and I run this thread up the flag pole one more time.<br /><br />UPDATED........Sept 23, 2007......5 new inputs reported No Mark (2-Old Mill, Polar Bear, 2-Sweet Cap 350)<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........28<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........36<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........16<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........4<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........90<br /><br /><br /><br />With 104 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 13% of the Joe Doyle cards.....<br />or, on an average of 1 out of every 7.5 cards of Joe Doyle.<br /><br />If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ?<br /><br />TED Z
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SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Well we finally hit the 100+ mark and I run this thread up the flag pole one more time.<br /><br />UPDATED....Sept 25, 2007....4 new inputs reported....No Mark (Old Mill, Piedmont 350, Polar Bear, Sweet Cap 350)<br /> <br /><br />T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark<br /><br />Piedmont 350........7.........29<br /><br />Sweet Cap 350......4.........37<br /><br />Polar Bear.............2.........17<br /><br />Tolstoi..................0..........1<br /><br />Old Mill..................1..........5<br /><br />Sovereign 350........0...........2<br /><br />EPDG....................0...........1<br /><br />Unknown back........0...........2<br />____________________________<br /><br />Totals.................14..........94<br /><br /><br /><br />With 108 cards reported, we have a reasonable random sample. At this point, I would say we have a better idea of the relative<br /> scarcity of the Joe Doyle...."wannabe error"....card with this "printer's mark".<br /><br />To date, if we can consider this survey as being representative, the Printer's Mark appears on only 13% of the Joe Doyle cards.....<br />or, on an average of 1 out of every 7.5 cards of Joe Doyle.<br /><br />If there are any more unreported Joe Doyle's out there.....please post them here ?<br /><br />TED Z
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new T206 Joe Doyle variation found
2 Attachment(s)
T206 Joe Doyle Nevada variation found. I am going to quit my job on Monday!
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nevada
unfortunately, yours is not the rare Nevada variation but instead the very common Naamloze Vennootschap--the Dutch variation for LLCs.
nice card, though best, barry |
Thank you for clarifying. It's still a variation though, and I am rich...right?
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rich
Only if you heed the warning of da Vinci:
he who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a year. I feel certain that you are wishing to be rich only in the next week or so, so you should be fine! best, barry |
I own a few of these Doyles and have seen quite a few recently. So far I have not seen any with the referred to "mark" after N.Y. I would have thought that with 13% presence of "the mark", I would have. Since most of the Doyles I've seen have been for sale, I have to add, it is possible people are holding onto these "marked" examples.
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nodgrass
Marc
Since that poll (I conducted 3 years ago), I have kept track of the Joe Doyle cards, and the % of cards that have the printer's (remnant) mark is considerably less than 13%. My latest tally is 229 unique samples. A total of 19 exhibit this "mark". At this point, that translates to 8.3%.....or, 1 of every 12 Joe Doyle cards. I would be very interested in knowing what backs are on these Joe Doyle cards that you have (or have seen) ? Because, the Joe Doyle's with backs other than Piedmont 350 (and to a lesser degree Sweet Cap 350) are very rarely found with this "mark". <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/doyledbldot.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> printer's mark......................../\ ...........................(remnant from "N" in Nat'l) Regards, TED Z |
Ted,
Sent you a private message. |
you better email him Marc-he wont answer that PM
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yes
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my card is partial y missing dot psa graded 4
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