Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Rand (hi Rand) is not a troll, he has his email up, and has his full name up many times. I don't always agree with him but I respect his opinions as I do everyone elses. If he were remaining anonymous he would have already been banned.....

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I see absolutely nothing wrong with JimC or anyone else asking a dealer to give him return priviledges and telling them he's sending the card to someone else (in this case, Kevin) for approval. If the dealer is not interested in that, then he doesn't have to agree, and there's no sale. Or the buyer has to take the risk himself if he wants to. How often has a guy bought a card in a SGC/PSA holder, only to find that it didn't cross to the other company, and then re-sell it...I think it happens fairly often since people like consistency with their sets. <br /><br />It looks like Barry isn't interested in doing that (and neither would I if I were an auction house with material on consignment), so Jim won't bid. No big deal, two reasonable people have decided they can't meet each other's requirements, and there's no deal. It happens all the time in life and business, it doesn't mean they have to be antagonists.<br /><br />I know some guys have cards in PSA holders sent to SGC (and vice versa), and then they only purcahse if the card crosses. That's pretty much the same thing, except the parties are identifiying PSA and SGC as the independent evaluators. Substitute someone else' name, and its no different. Again, the seller doesn't have to agree. I know many sellers wouldn't agree to let anyone send their card in a PSA holder (or SGC) to the rival company and only buy it if it crosses...that's fine too.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What if I sell a card in an SGC holder, the buyer gets it and shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it could be altered?<br /><br />The only thing we know with absolute certainty is one of them is right and the other is wrong. But which one?<br /><br />In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>I agree with King. I presume that both sides of the transaction are free to negotiate terms mutually agreeable to them. If the terms are unacceptable on either side they don't have to do the deal, or in the case of an auction house, one just doesn't have to bid.<br /> <br />Seems simple enough to me.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Steve- I couldn't agree with you more.<br /><br />When you are in business you try to please everybody, but you simply can't. I don't expect everyone who receives a catalog will bid (typically 10-15% actually do participate) and I can't expect 100% of my customers to agree with all my policies. I know that going in. But I do the best I can.<br /><br />If I sell a card that has been graded, it's pretty much all sales are final. It would take something major for me to refund money on a slabbed card, though it is within the realm of possibility. Bidders know this and make their decisions accordingly. They are all free to bid or not to bid.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>King<br /><br />I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. We've all been involved in Byzantine, complicated, multi party five-way deals that are structured where sale X will transpire providing trade Y goes through to party A who will underwite the purchase as soon as payment comes through from auction house Z. I see no difference.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>"Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?"<br /><br /><br />For $10, you'll receive a 15-30 second examination under a high intensity light by a grader sitting at a cubicle in a pitch black room reminiscent of a depressing bombshelter who'll assign a grade, two pieces of plastic sealed together with an ultrasonic sealer, and a paper label.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?<br /><br />BTW, here's PSA's stated process:<br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml</a>

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>King--exactly--Steve, Barry--we are all saying the same thing. Hypothetically Barry, to meet my criteria--how about if I bid and won psa high end cards at your auction and we made the sale contingent upon sgc saying the cards were legit--would you agree to it then? Again not that they would grade it the same number--only that they would say it has not been tampered with?<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />In terms of a return privlege to a dealer that sold me the card, the deal would be that it has to be sent out immediately--its not an indefinate return privlege.<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Are you saying that "Kevin Saucier" can erase the value of a graded card simply by claiming that it is altered in the holder? Because if so, I think you might want to consider re-valuing your collection.<br /><br />The beauty of a graded card is that it bears the brand and credibility of the grading company along with the cardboard inside the holder. When you buy a graded card, you are essentially buying the cardboard and the flip. Without those precious flips from the grading services all of our cards would be worth alot less. Furthermore, once a card has a flip from a credible grading company there is nothing "Kevin Saucier" can do to lower the value. Talk talk talk all he wants, a PSA 8 or an SGC 88 will sell on the open market at a market price.<br /><br />If you want to grade the graders and demand every card pass the personal inspection of "Kevin Saucier" ok, but remember when you try to sell your cards I hope "Kevin" is not in country.<br /><br />For every card he keeps you from buying now (that is graded by PSA or SGC) conversely he might keep someone else from buying when and if your cards hit the auction block. Do you really want "Kevin's" opinion to supercede your 25,000 flips when the time comes to sell? I would argue those flips not the cardboard inside your 25,000 cards are the buttress to any value in your collection.<br /><br />CB

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- that's a reasonable request, but I would still have to run it by my consignor. He would have to sign off on it. If he said absolutely not, I would be forced to respectfully decline.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Suppose an auction house sells a slabbed card. The new owner sends it to another grading service to have it put in their slab, only to be provided with incontrovertible evidence the card has been altered. The new owner then makes a demand to the auction house to have the sale rescinded and his money refunded. The auction house agrees to refund the money contingent on the consignor returning to the auction house the proceeds of the sale. Question -- What should the consignor do?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Corey- this would likely be done before the consignor was paid. I would expect a bidder to state this as a contingency of his bidding; therefore, the money would be held in escrow while the card was being reviewed.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>"Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?"<br /><br />Though being a sarcastic butthead is one of my claims to fame, in this particular case, no.<br /><br />A card will be measured if it doesn't look right, but as a matter of procedure for each and every card, no way. The more one handles cards, the easier it is to spot that which is out of the normal accepted parameters. Having toured two of the three major companies, the environment is as described. If I worked under the conditions graders do, I'd become a homicidal maniac by lunchtime on the first day of employment.<br /><br /><br />Jim<br /><br />Not trying to bust your chops here. As I stated, if the conditions of sale are established upfront relating to a second opinion, and we agree ahead of time, no problem whatsoever. As for the crossover aspect eh, I suppose it depends on the deal at the time. Of course, if it not only crosses, but comes back at a higher grade, there would of course be a proviso that I am duly compensated accordingly. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The house has to have a little edge in this type of deal. <br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Barry,<br /> <br />Don't quit your day job. The vast majority of collectors are very comfortable with graded cards and the process of buying them at auction. Your Auction comes with alot of integrity and I for one will be bidding. However, I have saved up a few questions and I be calling you tonight during the extended bidding to discuss. Smiley Face.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Communication is key, guys. I bought this blue Old Put from one of Barry's auctions about 3-4 years ago. It was raw and the sale was contingent upon it getting a numerical grade. Barry was informed beforehand and had no issue......it worked out perfectly. This stuff is easy if you communicate timely and effectively....regards<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1190303123.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Thanks Charlie, and I hope the questions aren't too difficult! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />At the time Leon bought that blue Old Put he was just an acquaintance, but I was impresed by how well he communicated and how quickly he got the card graded. There was never an issue.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />All I want to do is take precautions I am not buying a card that has been altered. Whether its Kevin that gives a card a second look or Mike Baker or one of Dave's guys that is immaterial. If I am spending $10,000 for a card at this point I want someone elses opinion before I buy it.<br />Charlie--why is that unreasonable?<br /><br />Corey,<br /><br />The auctioneer would make clear going into the auction what the conditions are. Under what you described, buyer would be out of luck but if 2 sides agreed up front purchase of PSA card contingent upon SGC saying card was legit then auctioneer having discussed this with consigner beforehand would be obligated to make good on money if card viewed by SGC as altered.

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>But this thread is really stupid. There should be no reason why Barry or any other auction house should offer a guarantee on cards that are authenticated. Not to sound like Bruce, but WE are trusting PSA and SGC to do their jobs by buying their products. If they screw up in grading a card, they have insurance to protect them from lawsuit or errors. Just like a doctor, insurance agent, lawyer and stock broker, WE all carry e/o insurance to protect our clients. <br />The blame belongs to the grading company and not the seller/auction house. <br /><br />Jim, Kevin has more knowledge than 99% of the people we know. I know you respect his opinion and value his friendship, but you got to drop this idea of having him view every card you purchase. You know the guys that are true to this industry. Keep buying from them and don't worry about it. It's not as if you are some spring chicken and you need help with this. If you get a card that is fishy, take it up with the grading company. They will make good on it.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Shane<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Barry: "In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?"<br /><br />Sure...why not? but if you agreed to use Kevin's (or someone else's) opinion before the transaction, then that's a different story. If there was no agreement on another eye looking at the card before the transaction, then a buyer shouldn't expect to get a refund.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Paul: "I see no problem with someone asking the opinion of another party, and that sale contingent upon said opinion. That is strictly up to the buyer and seller at the time of sale. I was refering to sales (way) after the fact. "<br /><br />We are in agreement on both counts. <br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I want you to tell me how you would handle the following situation, and you have to put yourself in the consignor's position to answer it.<br /><br />Suppose you consign a valuable PSA 8 to my auction. The winning bidder sends it to SGC, and they deem it trimmed. They then place it in an "altered" sleeve and I return it to you as such. So this expensive card that left your hands as an 8 comes back in a sleeve that renders it near worthless. How would you handle this (I know SGC could technically look at it without removing it from the holder, but that is very unscientific as they would not be able to examine the edges)?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I don't see how any contingency can be expected from the buyer's perspective in an auction format. There are usually two other parties involved (the underbidder and the consignor), it makes it super-complicated.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I would expect SGC to look at it without taking it out of the holder.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The contingency Barry and I had was only that the raw card was unaltered and authentic. I would guess his consignor was a stand up guy too and had no issue with that. I know you wouldn't and neither would I.....On graded cards it's completely different....

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jim,<br />I understand that the closer you get in finishing your goal of 100 sets in PSA 8 or better will be very expensive cards ($10K or more). Why don't you employee Kevin to review these cards before an auction or perhaps at a major show have him review those cards from the dealer? I understand doing what you are talking about with the expensive cards. I would want to know as well. <br />I just don't think it is fair to the auction house to take the card back after the fact. He loses a consignor or a potential buyer either way.<br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>In a way, dealing with a graded card is more difficult because there is already an opinion (grading co.) that says the card is legitimate and cosignor and auction house is relying on that opinion.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Shane,<br /><br />I agree--good ideas.<br /><br />I do not expect Barry or another house to take the card back unless there was an agreement up front.<br /><br />DiMag sent out Tuesday morning insured registered.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- SGC can and will look at a card and leave it in the holder, but they would be the first to admit it's not an ideal way to review it. They might make a mistake since the edges are hidden.

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>OK, seems we are moving in the right direction with not holding the auction house directly responsible for graded cards...BUT from my personal experiences with 8's or higher...how about the grading company...when i try to cross psa to sgc, trimming is not really the issue as it is flaws/standards that keep it from an 88, what about GAI cards in high grade..i have run into problems there most of the time. what about a buyer trying to get a GAI card crossed....even if its sent to psa and sgc for review..???<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />You have 25,000 flips from PSA? How many "Kevin Saucier" flips do you have? Why would you assert that you have more confidence in the talents of a guy who has no flips on the market?<br /><br />Personally, I would rather own an altered card in a PSA or SGC holder than own a dead original card in a "Kevin Saucier" holder. <br /><br />Look at in reverse, try to convince someone to pay SMR for a "PRO" graded card with the assertion that "Kevin Saucier" says its not altered.<br /><br />CB<br /><br /><br />Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />But the best of all worlds is having a vintage psa 9 with Kevin's seal of approval that is legit. Noone is talking about collecting PRO cards here. I don't get it--you would admit there are at least some altered cards in PSA or SGC holders--if I am paying a substantial amount of money for a card why not if I have an option to get an independent second opinion take advantage of that option?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />Again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of anyone here, but I have a question.<br /><br />Would you ask for a PSA9 with Charlie's seal of approval? Or mine? Or Leon's? <br /><br />In other words, let's say I win the Global T205 Walter Johnson in Barry's auction (please, nobody bid on it, I'd like it). I receive the card in the mail after I've paid for it. Then I show it to, say, King, and King tells me he thinks it's been trimmed on the right edge. Global, by putting it in a holder, has rendered an opinion that the card is unaltered.<br /><br />Should I then have the right to go back to Barry and get a refund on the card, because an independent second opinion (King) says it's been trimmed?<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />EDIT: Please note that I don't think the card - which is real - is trimmed. I should probably have used a hypothetical example instead of a real card in a real auction. Sorry about that.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Jim, i think we can take this a step further...just like a Ruth bat, the auction house can get a LOA/COA from a couple of different sources...why not a $10,000+ card, why cant the auction house send it to psa & sgc for both approvals? would the card be worth a premium if passed by both company's? interesting concept if the bidders wanted it.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>From an earlier voluminous thread discussing various legal issues facing the hobby, I had opined that there exists a real risk down the road that auction houses might indeed be held liable should slabbed cards in fact turn out to be altered IF the auction house when selling them did not make adequate disclosure of that possibility. Reasonable people of course can differ as to the merits of this opinion, but that is how I feel. With that said, though, I think it is inconsistent for people to expect the auction house in such instances to rescind the sales and refund the money without also expecting the consignor, especially one who knew or should have known of the issue of slabbed altered cards and was content to let the auction house sell the cards without adequate disclosure, to refund the proceeds of the sale to the auction house.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Editted to add: I mean no disrespect to Kevin, I am using his name because you brought it up. I have heard he is a great guy and very knowledgable."<br /><br /><br /><br />Thanks, seeing my name in so many quotes was not looking so good (LOL).<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I had to acknowledge that there might be an altered card in a holder because by your defintion of alteration, if a person breathes on a card it becomes radioactive. <br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I hate to say it but this is starting to become a battle of the experts. When you add 3d party opinions where does it stop, does the auction house then look for another expert who says the graded card is legitimate? How much time and money are you willing to spend? Suppose the experts disagree?<br /><br />Wasn't the initial SGC, PSA grading suppose to help us avoid all this?<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- you got me nervous for a moment there. Let's use hypothetical cards in our examples. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />You are being ridiculous--we are talking if the card is trimmed. You think there are no trimmed cards in PSA or SGC holders. Assuming you will admit that there are, why should I take the risk for $10,000 that I may be getting one of them?<br /><br />Al,<br /><br />No--I would not--although I consider you, King and Charlie highly knowledgeable card guys I do not believe you have the same level of expertise as Kevin. And as I said before, I don't believe you have any rights unless you reach an explicit agreement with Barry before the auction.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jim, Have you already had any your cards reviewed by Kevin? Just wondering why you have so much confidence in Kevin and so little confidence in PSA, SGC and GAI.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />I missed your earlier question.<br /><br />Yes--for a very expensive item, I think if both PSA and SGC signed off then it would make me bid or bid more.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Once again, If the card is trimmed in the holder but it is the correct size, has alot of eye appeal and says PSA or SGC on label you are not taking a huge risk? You are protected by the market acceptance of their brand.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />I do not have little confidence in the grading companies.<br /><br />Just answer these questions honestly.<br /><br />1)Do you believe there are any trimmed cards in holders<br />2)Would you want to take the risk of getting one--especially if you buy from someone who says that if GAI or SGC or Kevin say its altered then I will not make you buy it?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to say Charlie is making a very good point.<br /><br />In a perfect world the graders would get it right every time. But if a card in a PSA or SGC holder has a tiny alteration that is not perceptible to the naked eye, it's going to trade at market price every time it is offered.<br /><br />On the other hand, if Kevin deems a graded card altered, he may be right on the money but I'm not sure the market would listen.<br /><br />I think Charlie hit the nail on the head.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />We are not talking about resale value here. Knowing you have an altered card in your collection is enough for me to want to do it.<br /><br />There is a person who is participating in this discussion(I am not outing him) who has had Kevin look at a lot of his cards and I think come to the conclusion that he had some altered cards in his collection.<br />I suspect he feels the same way I do about these issues.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Honestly, Jim, unless there is a glaring problem (like a badly flared or crimped corner or wrinkle) then I am usually ok with the opinion of one of the major grading companies. If the card is very expensive, then prior to the conclusion of the sale or auction, I either ask to inspect the card or have the seller describe the card to me.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Disagree completely--I think true collectors would tell you its not just about the money, its knowing you don't have an altered card in your collection.<br /><br />If someone offered you 2 psa 8 T206s Barry for your collection and for sake of argument they looked identical but in reality one was microtrimmed on one side would you want the unaltered one more--of course you would--Charlie's argument is that if its in a holder and looks like a good card whats the difference? I couldn't disagree more.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Jim, i really value your opinion here...you have a huge significant amount of money in your psa cards. you have been buying these cards for many years and have a huge presense on the Registry. i have 2 questions...at what point did you start to be concerned with the "quality" of the cards... meaning at some point you must have started to not blindly buy the holder anymore and question the card... 2nd, you are so heavily invested with psa, wouldnt you feel slighted or cheated if some of the cards were trimmed and PSA did not reimburse you for them????

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />It would be ridiculous for PSA to reimburse Jim, if that happened the grading companies would be out of business.<br /><br />Or alternatively they would have to charge huge fees and only very few cards would get graded.<br /><br />If PSA refunded only the grading fees, that would be kind of useless.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />I never blindly bought the holder on expensive cards. Have been increasingly concerned about theis issue in recent years. Started when PSA went to the one-and-out grading system from having two graders look at a card BEFORE it went in the holder.<br />Secondly, wouldn't I feel slighted or cheated--probably would.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Thats not right.<br /><br />I had a SGC Evers Portrait SGC 88 graded by Joe Merkel and Dave Forman decided it was trimmed and paid me the full market value of the card.<br /><br />I would expect PSA to do the same.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I have seen cards come straight out of vending boxes come back "evidence of trimming". Grading is an opinion, it is not an exact science. Nobody can be certain 100% of the time. Not even your boy.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jim, So on the cards graded by PSA or SGC, that you showed to Kevin, what percentage were deemed altered?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Of course Jim I would want the unaltered card. But Charlie's point has to do with market acceptance. I think I've been around the hobby a pretty long time but if it's my word against SGC's or PSA's, nobody gives a hoot about my opinion. And that's what Charlie is saying about Kevin- it's possible he is more skilled than the graders but the market probably won't listen to him either.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>This is what you said on another thread within the past day or two.<br /><br />"Lastly, I don't believe any of my sets or cards have problems."<br /><br />So if you have been able to accumulate your incredible collection without purchasing any cards that concerned you, why are you so worried?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />You are fishing but I was not referring to myself--Kevin to date has not seen any of my cards.<br /><br />Charlie,<br /><br />I agree but still I want that second opinion whether its from SGC, Kevin or Mike.<br /><br />Peter,<br /><br />That was in response to someone who suggested that I send in my sets or cards that have problems--I said I am not aware that any have problems although mathematically speaking there obviously are ones that do. Who said I was worried about cards I have--Peter I don't appreciate you ascribing emotions toward me that I don't have--I am talking about new expensive card purchases here.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />And my point was market acceptance is only one factor--most collectors would want to know if they truly have an unaltered card.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Jim, thank you for the clarification. I was not ascribing anything to you, merely trying to understand what you were saying.

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Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Amazing isnt it?.....Graded NM-MT + cards are still suspicious even after 15 years of "professional" grading. ****Jim, i think this has been a spirited conversation that has been well recieved*** thanks

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Same thing I said before Peter--you are taking a snippet of a sentence I said and put it in a context that it was not meant for.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>An auctioneer or dealer may very well do extra to please Jim. But how about the rest of us who buy paltry $100-$500 cards, do we have to settle for more uncertainty about the legitimacy of our cards?<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />This is the main reason I participate on NET54--discussion about the serious issues facing the hobby--as long as it doesn't get nasty and personal I love it.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Maybe someday soon we will actually see "double-graded" expensive cards although I am not sure how the logistics of that would work.

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Posted By: <b>rand brotman</b><p>Jim, what if you have a psa 10 graded 10 years ago. Kevin sees that its trimmed, no doubt in his mind. what would you do?

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>that was double-graded a while back.<br /><br />And I do specifically recall a high-grade Mantle that Mastro had a few years back where they guaranteed it would cross to at least an 8 level.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The Mantle was in an old SBC holder and in the text of the auction itself, Mastro guaranteed an 8 from PSA.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>How did the Lajoie work, one company slabbed it and another issued some sort of opinion letter?

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Peter, I think it was in a PSA slab, but there was a tamper-proof GAI sticker on the slab's seal. When GAI first started, they offered a second opinion service called "exemplar" or something and they reviewed slabbs without breaking the existing holders.

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Wes that makes sense. I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL. EDITED TO ADD I don't see how one can meaningfully review an expensive prewar card without examining it out of the holder.

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Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>If my memory serves correct I think Global tried that early on. They would put a holographic sticker with their grade on the back of a card that was already slabbed. I don't know if that is what happened with the Lajoie but just sharing what I remembered.<br /><br />Edited. I see I was a little slow with the response. Wesley explained it correctly. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rand,<br /><br />Its hypothetical as I have never showed any of my cards to Kevin.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Unless you are willing to get a second opinion on all 25,000 cards in your collection, it is incongruent to be so obsessed with getting a second opinion on the 25,001 card in your collection.<br /><br />The best way to get a second opinion on a graded card is to send it in for review. Alternatively, if you are looking for another opinion, send it to another grading service for crossover. Lastly, you could always breakout all of your 25,000 cards and send them in raw for a clean slate.<br /><br />My advice, use your self as the second opinion. Buy cards that look great in the holder and don't worry if it looks bad to someone else using a spectron microscope.<br /><br />CB<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />I do things my way--there are plenty of dealers I buy from that would be happy to make my purchase contingent upon Mike or Kevin or whoever I choose approve the card.

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>I think someone could spot obvious alterations without removing a card from a slab, but I am not sure anyone could express a definitive opinion that a card was NOT altered without examining the edges outside a holder. If Kevin or others disagree I would be interested.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Mike Baker gets paid for his opinion, quite different from Kevin. <br /><br />Speaking of which, Mike Baker is among the best if not the best. He has an amazing eye. He is also one of my favorite guys in the hobby. I would rather you use him as your second opinion. <br /><br />So how many of your cards are you going to cross into GAI holders?<br /><br />CB<br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>And therein lies the beauty of a free enterprise system. The parties are free to negotiate terms to their mutual satisfaction.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I agree with you, also I think the grading cos. use cheap plastic. The card looks good but the plastic is merely translucent and not clear. Furthermore, the plastic scratches, after a while you start wondering whether the scratch is on the cardholder or the card.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Novus Plastic Polish No. 2 does wonders for anything but the deepest scratches.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />I would pay both Kevin and Mike for their opinion--probably the same amount--why should there be a difference?<br /><br />I too think Mike has an amazing eye, I think he is the top grader in the hobby and I consider him a personal friend.<br /><br />I am trying to build over 100 vintage psa 8 and better sets Charlie--crossing some over would set me back--saying that Mike has authenticated packs for me and a number of cards that PSA does not grade.